Cycling new tank

[Dbjork]

HI Guys: Your information is always appreciated. I have a 40 gal breeder tank I want to set up for fry, or for a hospital tank, or even for a new pair of breeder discus if I can find someone close to me that has discus. How do I cycle a new tank, and how long? This will be a bb tank, with sponge filters. I am using RO/DI water, and will use RO right. Have a tds meter, on existing tanks run them about 100, 110. Any breeders in Montana? Thanks for your time and patience.

[Ryan]

I moved this thread to the proper section.

[lhforbes12]

Dbjork,
Two easy cycling products are Biospira and Stability. Both of them work very well and will cycle in a tank in 1 week. Since you are talking about discus, if you do large daily water changes, say 50% twice a day, one in the miorning and one in the evening, then cycling isn't all that necessary IMO. You would need to keep to a schedule like that though. Your water is fine, (assuming that is, that by 100-110 you actually mean 100-110 ppm TDS) it's plenty soft enough, what is your pH?

Larry

[Dbjork]

Dbjork,
Two easy cycling products are Biospira and Stability. Both of them work very well and will cycle in a tank in 1 week. Since you are talking about discus, if you do large daily water changes, say 50% twice a day, one in the miorning and one in the evening, then cycling isn't all that necessary IMO. You would need to keep to a schedule like that though. Your water is fine, (assuming that is, that by 100-110 you actually mean 100-110 ppm TDS) it's plenty soft enough, what is your pH?

Larry
The Ph is 6.2 Yes the 100 is ppm. Thanks for the info on the Biospira and stability. Will look them up in my fish catalog and get one ordered.

[t2000kw]

How do I cycle a new tank, and how long? This will be a bb tank, with sponge filters.

Though I don't yet have discus, this information in general in nature so I'll share my experiences and research. I will be starting a new tank soon which will be for discus and will be using this method, though in a planted tank. With discus, there are pros (less frequent water changes, the plants use up some of th efish wastes, etc.) and cons (harder to clean, too many and you obscure what you want to look at--the fish, etc.) to having a planted tank. Many find a bare tank easier to take care of and don't mind the more frequent water changes. You don't get out of water changes completely in either case, it seems.

If you like the idea of a bare bottom tank but want plants, all is not lost. We have several varieties of floating plants that nearly cover the top of the tanks we have. They do most of the "clean-up work" that plants do in these tanks (though some is done by the ones planted on the bottom). You could use floating plants to give you some of the advantages of plants without the disadvantage of making it harder to clean the bottom of the tank. Just a thought. If you're patient you can have the top covered in a few weeks or so with some of these plants. We throw some of these away from time to time since they spread so easily.

Floating plants will also cut down on the light in the tank which might be a good thing for the discus. They certainly do help in algae control.

You can use some goldfish to help cycle the tank naturally. With a well planted tank it can happen in a few days to a week or two if you can borrow some filter media, stones, etc., from another tank that has already cycled. You would be transplanting the needed bacteria to the new tank if you did that. The bacteria will eventually establish themselves anyway but this makes it happen much faster.

Some report that using products that add the bacteria to the tank are worthless. Others report some success. You'll need to decide on whether to use such a product or not. Since I have planted natural tanks I've never needed to resort to that.

Goldfish are one of the more tolerant breeds for ammonia and such. Not that they can't get sick, but they are hardier.

Watch your nitrates, nitrites, and ammonia and do water changes to lower their levels. When your tank has cycled, you can cut back on water changes.

Change the water too often and you will take a very long time to cycle the tank. You don't want to remove all of the good bacteria at once.

You can buy some products that inactivate the ammonia when you are starting up a tank. I've never needed to use it so I don't know what to recommend.

If you are going to cycle your tank with the discus in it, you might find another method that's easy on the discus. I don't like the idea of subjecting the discus to the higher levels of wastes in a tank that hasn't cycled yet. I can't change the water daily, either, with my schedule. Of course, I have goldfish in another tank that I can simply move to the new tank. You might not have that option or might prefer not to bother with them at all.

There is a way to use ammonia added to the water of a fishless tank to help get it to cycle, but I've only read about it being used on a palnted natural aquarium. I don't know if it would be workable in a bare tank.

Just some things to consider. By no means is there only one way to do this.

[Alight]

Sounds like you have other tanks up and running. What kind of fish are in these tanks?

The easiest way to cycle a new tank is just to take a filter, or filter media from an existing tank and use it in the new tank.

I always have an extra sponge filter in one of my tanks in case I need to quicky cycle a tank.

The only drawback is if the tanks you have might have diseased fish that have something that Discus can't tolerate. If you have other tanks, chances are whatever you have in your tanks will eventually be passed to your Discus tank anyway, so if your existing fish are all well, I'd go ahead and use media or a filter from one of your existing tanks to cycle the new tank.

Do not run the filter in the new tank with no fish in it. Move the filter or media to the new tank at the same time you add new fish.

Of the two products mentioned for bacteria in the bottle, the only one I would recommend is Biospira. It has the nitrifying bacteria in it. From the reading I did on stability, it only has heterotrophic bacteria in it which will speed up cycling, but does not contain the nitrifying bacteria necessary to really get a tank that has no feeder material (gravel, filter media, etc. from an established tank) going fast.

[t2000kw]

Sounds like you have other tanks up and running. What kind of fish are in these tanks?


Not sure if you're aslking me or not.

In the 100 we have fancy goldfish and some corys. Mixed in the rest we have some rec cherry shrimp, ghost shrimp, some Emler's (?) live bearers, white clouds, albino white clouds, and albino cherry barbs. Probably others I'm forgetting.

[AADiscus]

The thing with using fish (non-discus) to cycle a tank is do those fish have diseases???? I would rather do a fish less cycle (takes a little bit longer) or take a sponge and use it in the new tank and you are ready to go. I always have extra sponges going in tanks in case someone needs one for there tank or we get a new one.

[marilyn1998]

You would never use ammonia to cycle a planted tank. Ammonia (the product) will KILL the plants. If you have a plant only tank, you wouldnt "cycle" it. No need to as the plants USE the ammonia, nitrites and nitrates. You would add fish 3-4 weeks AFTER the plants are added and your fertilization schedule has been balanced.

I used Biospira, some substrate and a filter as well as the water from a smaller already established tank and put my discus right in it. It had cycled in less than a week.

[t2000kw]

You would never use ammonia to cycle a planted tank. Ammonia (the product) will KILL the plants.

Actually, I got that from the most respected textbook on planted aquariums. Have you read Walstad's book "The Ecology of the Planted Aquarium"?

Maybe I didn't make it clear that it was just an interesting approach, but not somethign I'm recommending to anyone. It's definitely not something for anyone who might not want to take great care with the administration of the ammonia and taking readings to see when the ammonia has been used up by the plants before administering more of the same. Personally, the natural aquarium works well enough that I don't intend to do it that way. Never have. And Walstad does not recommend this technique, but she covers it well enough to show how cycling works in a planted tank. It was interesting to see how the levels of various chemicals changed over time and how they followed a cycle related to the ammonia additions.

Ammonia is acually used as a fertilizer for above ground plants! Too much, though, and you could have problems. Same for aquarium plants. A little ammonia (if there are no fish in the tank) would provide nitrogen for the plants. For quantitative data on how much and how to do it, you'd need to read the book.

In the aquarium, you don't want to add ammonia if there are fish in it.


If you have a plant only tank, you wouldnt "cycle" it. No need to as the plants USE the ammonia, nitrites and nitrates. You would add fish 3-4 weeks AFTER the plants are added and your fertilization schedule has been balanced.

Correct on the plants-only tank. Going back to Walstad and her thorough research, planted tanks do cycle if they have fish in them, and the original poster wants to put fish in the aquarium, though probably without plants. A planted tank with fish cycles very quickly compared to a fish aquarium with no plants (ours took only a few days for most things to get to near zero levels). And, you can add fish almost immediately (we did), though with discus it might be better to wait a few days for everything to settle down. Fish in a planted aquarium provide the needed ammonia to start the cycling of the different bacteria types to take care of turning the ammonia, nitrites and nitrates into safer things. The plants use their share of these as nutrients so there is not quite as much dependence on the bacteria but they still help out.

Another benefit of a "Walstad" (natural) tank is that you don't need to tinker with fertilizer so you aren't any toxicity concerns related to that. We don't use fertilizers at all (the substrate, fish, and bacteria provide all that is needed in this type of tank and should work for 10 or more years that way) and have luxuriant plant growth. We'll be giving some back to the aquatic plant club very soon to help others get started.

[t2000kw]

The thing with using fish (non-discus) to cycle a tank is do those fish have diseases???? I would rather do a fish less cycle (takes a little bit longer) or take a sponge and use it in the new tank and you are ready to go. I always have extra sponges going in tanks in case someone needs one for there tank or we get a new one.

True. Ours are free of disease but buying from a local aquarium store might not be. Also, some fish species seem to be carriers of things that are bad for discus but not so bad for the carriers.

I do like the idea of "transplanting" filter media from a clean tank to get things going. It worked well for us.

[lhforbes12]

Of the two products mentioned for bacteria in the bottle, the only one I would recommend is Biospira. It has the nitrifying bacteria in it. From the reading I did on stability, it only has heterotrophic bacteria in it which will speed up cycling, but does not contain the nitrifying bacteria necessary to really get a tank that has no feeder material (gravel, filter media, etc. from an established tank) going fast.

Al,
I've used Stability now to cycle and/or re-cycle about 10 tanks. In every case I have seen the same thing. 50% reduction of NH3/4 on the second day, by day 4, 0.0 ppm NH3/4 and 0.0 ppm NO2.

Larry

[t2000kw]

You would never use ammonia to cycle a planted tank. Ammonia (the product) will KILL the plants. If you have a plant only tank, you wouldnt "cycle" it. No need to as the plants USE the ammonia, nitrites and nitrates. You would add fish 3-4 weeks AFTER the plants are added and your fertilization schedule has been balanced.

I won't quote Walstad's book, since it gets pretty technical and I have just a small amount of college level chemistry background, but here are several links about fishless cycling (with or without plants). Walstad's book goes much deeper into using it with plants and doing so safely with no harm at all to the plants. It actually enhances plant growth when done correctly!

Possibly the most "famous" internet article:
http://malawicichlids.com/mw01017.htm
The article in the above link is quoted all over the internet. Plants are suggested as a source for the bacteria and also would serve as a place for bacteria to attach to, like they do in filter media.

This one uses ammonium chloride:
http://badmanstropicalfish.com/articles/article14.html

Other links, most using household ammonia without additives, suds enhancers, etc.:

http://www.aquahobby.com/articles/e_fishless.php
http://www.algone.com/fishless_cycling.htm
http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-fishless-cycling.htm

This is NOT for use with fish in the tank!!! Fish add ammonia through their waste productions. This is only to get the ammonia-nitrite-nitrate cycle going by providing the necessary "nitrogen nutrients" for bacteria to take hold and multiply to give you a healthy amount of bacteria to convert nitrogen compounds to safe ones.