No carbon???

[swinters66]

I just read an article on discus...and they said no carbon. Why? I have carbon in my filters....so far so good with the water chemistry. Ph and all that are fine. How am I supposed to keep a super clean tank if this is true and I shouldnt use carbon? I have a sponge, carbon and some ceramic discs in a bag in one filter (aquaclear filter) and ammocarb in the other. (whisper filter)

[Dood Lee]

Unless your water is full of harmful metals, or you are removing medication from the water, carbon is not needed. Ammocarb is used for chemical filtration, but in a well cycled tank, ammonia shouldn't be a problem.

[chompy]

Carbon is only useful for a day or two.

[White Worm]

Activated carbon in granular or powdered form provides one type of chemical filtration. Activated carbon removes discoloration, dyes, colors, phosphate, chlorine, chloramine, antimony, arsenic, chromium, hydrogen peroxide, potassium permanganate, some of the heavy metals and many other toxins in varying degree.

It also removes many fish medications at the end of therapy. It is ideal for prefiltration of the tapwater to remove most of the residual toxins left after municipal water treatment and some of the toxins that have been added in water treatment. Activated carbon does not remove ammonia, nitrite, or nitrate, so do not expect it to take the place of biological or mechanical filtration.

It does what it does, and it does it well, and should be an integral part of your plan, but with full knowledge of its properties.

Activated carbon adsorbs the above named toxins. Based on the concentration of the toxin in the water, the effective lifespan of the carbon could be a few hours or a few days. Activated carbon is not meant to be used as filter media in biological filters. It is often combined with filter floss and left in the filter for an indeterminate period of time.

This is not the correct way to use carbon. Once it has been used to remove toxins from the water, it should not be left in the aquarium to serve as a biological media. There are other, more appropriate media for this purpose.

There is no sure-fire method to determine whether or not it is exhausted. At the point of exhaustion, it leaches back into the water the very toxins it absorbed. Stunting and sickness occur when phosphates, heavy metals and toxins are released into the water.

To further complicate matters, carbon can not discriminate between the harmful and helpful elements it absorbs. It removes tannins and calcium (nutrients) from water as well, both of which are necessary for good skeletal structure.

[Timbo]

i was to the understanding that some poor quality carbons can leech phosphates into the water leading to probs...i guess not


Activated carbon does not and can not leach anything back into the water....

[White Worm]

I guess the point is to only use carbon for specific reasons such as med removal, etc. Dont have it in the tank continuously because even if it doesnt release anything back, it does get exausted rather quickly depending on what it is absorbing and is then useless.

[Alight]

If the carbon is doing it's job, it can also be a problem. Several of the toxic metals you mentioned are actually important trace minerals that Discus need in very small quantities. Removing all of the trace minerals is not a good idea and is one theory for why carbon filtration is associated with hole-in-the-head disease.

There is absolutely no reason to use carbon consistently in your Discus aquarium, and at least one possible reason not to use it.

It's fine to use it to polish your change water. But if you are using it to put off water changes, you are not doing your fish any good.

Aside from all of this, keeping fresh good quality carbon in your tank is expensive.

These are the reasons that carbon is not advised for continuous use in a Discus tank.

[architect1]

I was also told By Pros not to use it. And since my last Problem I haven't used it. If some one tells you on her not to do it or to do something I would do it 100% of the time there right and know what there talking about. Just food for thought.

[AmberC]

Hi swinters66..

When I first came here to Simply.. I thought all these people were just crazy because they all told me I had to take my carbon out of my filter! I actually left for a little while.. confused and thinking they were all crazy lol. (I have a post about this here somewhere.) But then I thought.. if they are ALL saying it.. then there has to be a reason for it.. they cant really ALL be crazy (only a few of em lol) so I came back to find out why.
I agree with the carbon causing a vit deficiency for the discus which can possibly lead to HITH/HLLE. I believe that this was part of the problem in my own tank.. along with water quality and poor diet.
These guys actually do know what they are talking about ;)

I use Aquaclears on all four of my tanks. All I have in them are those sponges. I only change them out when they start falling apart. Otherwise all you need to do is rinse that out in a bucket full of tank water every so often to clean it off and all will be fine because there is what is called a biological filter that will live inside those foams to keep your water clean :)

Amber

[White Worm]

I was researching this further and you are doing the same thing if you are using RO. Then you have to add back trace elements. Carbon absorbs until it cant anymore but I read more so that it does leech back than the opposite. Anyone have a link to the research that says it does not?

[t_j]

I think this topic might have just helped me with my other tank that I've been having a problem with thanks swinters66 for asking the question (Cause I didn't even think about the carbon)!!!!:D :)

[White Worm]

Mikscus I'm not sure what you're trying to say here..AC is a chemical adsorbant...what is comes in contact with it chemically binds to itself.....and it cannot release it. That takes major heat and acids to get it to release what it has adsorbed...It cannot leach anything that it's adsorbed back into the water...Period. Elements like chlorine and ozone react with it and they become completely other elements.......they are not even absorbed

Once it has exhausted itself..then it won't adsorb any more...but it won't release anything back into the water ...grade 11 chemistry


Graham

Thanks for the chemistry lesson professor, :p I was just curious and trying to learn what I can so don’t be so quick to dismiss. ;) I actually took chemistry but not until my senior year and I probably didn’t take it too serious. :D So, the more reading I did, the more I now have a better idea. I’m definitely no expert and I got all this info from research and I may quote some of the findings.
Activating carbon material, which increases its internal surface area and so to adsorption capacity, it is done through special processes which involve heating the material to nearly 2,000 F and then acid (phosphoric) washing like you said, plus, this process is also used in recovery of the carbon so you are probably correct about it not releasing any harmful substances (absorbed) back into the aquarium because they have been changed or bound. I think where the confusion comes in is that because the activation process uses phosphoric acid, some carbons leach phosphate into the aquarium water. The phosphate can be a naturally occurring part of the carbon or it can be from phosphoric acid. The phosphate is not toxic, but it may lead to algae blooms. Some may consider this leeching and not understand the origin.
Now.. The next issue…Trace elements removed by carbon. This is the main myth surrounding the reason why we don’t use it.
In the aquarium hobby most lists of trace elements contain copper, iodine, iron and molybdenum and most can have different chemical forms in water and not every form can be adsorbed by carbon (in fact most cannot). The form depends upon the pH of the water. It turns out that for most elements, the chemical form that carbon can remove is only present when the water pH is either below 3 or above 10. These are hardly Ph conditions found in our aquariums.
RO units work on the exact principle with a carbon filter.
Now, I figure that if people are successful with RO units with adding trace elements back, then, it makes sense that people who are knowledgeable about carbon could use it on a regular basis. I don’t mean constantly because you cant tell when it is exhausted but for more than just med removal. Maybe run your tap through it once before storage barrel.
Like I said, this is just what I found through research. Any ideas?

[karl wagner]

hopelessly semantic.

It's aDsorptivity, not aBsorbance.

For an interesting read:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adsorption

FWIW: my 2 cents: We don't need comments
like "grade 11 Chemistry" here. For some of us, that was a long time ago. For others, they haven't gotten there yet.

If you're not doing routine elemental analysis on your water, there is no way to determine whether GAC (granulated) is beneficial or not.

It is my opinion that the article I referenced lends some insight into why Carbon is out of favor with discus fans,
it references that the adsorptivity of carbon is temperature dependent with higher temperatures giving poorer performance. This may correlate to it's use in aqueous environments also, (would need testing mentioned above.)

The second reason that Carbon has (again in my opinion) fallen out of favor with discus fans is that it's often used as a crutch instead of doing water changes. When used for long periods it becomes a detritus trap. The detritus is not adsorbed to the Carbon at all, it's just stuck in the filter, rotting away and polluting the water. That's different from but could be mistaken for leaching back into the water.

Can't we all just get along?

Respectfully submitted;

Karl Wagner,
BS Chemistry '92

[t_j]

Mikscus I'm not sure what you're trying to say here..AC is a chemical adsorbant...what is comes in contact with it chemically binds to itself.....and it cannot release it. That takes major heat and acids to get it to release what it has adsorbed...It cannot leach anything that it's adsorbed back into the water...Period. Elements like chlorine and ozone react with it and they become completely other elements.......they are not even absorbed

Once it has exhausted itself..then it won't adsorb any more...but it won't release anything back into the water ...grade 11 chemistry


Graham



I don't understand what you mean by the carbon not being able to release any thing back into the water? The reason I ask this is because until I read this thread I kept carbon in one of my cichlid tanks and never took it out unless I needed to clean the magnum I didn't know that you can't leave it in there. Well what I'm trying to get at is that if you stir up my rocks all you get is a bunch of black stuff like dust that comes out. I could never figure out where it was coming from I had the same problem with my Pirnhas too until I read this thread and I put two and two together (I know what your thinking stupid right I know that now vary stupid but I didn't know:( ). Is this what you mean or is this something different?


P.S. I no longer have the carbon in my filter I made sure after reading this thread that I took it out and most likely won't use it again.

[swinters66]

Well using carbon in my filters won't deter me from doing water changes, as carbon does not keep the gravel clean. That I know ;)

I rinse the cartridges in aquarium water (taken out of the tank first of course) before I add them to the filters. It gets out some of the smaller pieces and dust. So, when I do wc's I dont see any of the black particles in the bucket.

I do appreciate everyones opinions on this subject!! I am learning a lot around here :fish:

[t_j]

Well using carbon in my filters won't deter me from doing water changes, as carbon does not keep the gravel clean. That I know ;)

I rinse the cartridges in aquarium water (taken out of the tank first of course) before I add them to the filters. It gets out some of the smaller pieces and dust. So, when I do wc's I dont see any of the black particles in the bucket.

I do appreciate everyones opinions on this subject!! I am learning a lot around here :fish:


I know that also I do weekly water changes and major gravel cleaning each time and obviusly carbon doesn't keep your gravel clean! My point is that I keep on cleaning my tank and some times twice a week to try and get all this stuff cleaned up and it won't so the only other thing was the carbon I only have this problem with the tank that has carbon in it.

[White Worm]

hopelessly semantic.

It's aDsorptivity, not aBsorbance.

The second reason that Carbon has (again in my opinion) fallen out of favor with discus fans is that it's often used as a crutch instead of doing water changes. When used for long periods it becomes a detritus trap. The detritus is not adsorbed to the Carbon at all, it's just stuck in the filter, rotting away and polluting the water. That's different from but could be mistaken for leaching back into the water.

Can't we all just get along?

Respectfully submitted;

Karl Wagner,
BS Chemistry '92
If the spelling error was directed to me, please read again. I did spell it correctly the first time, i just missed it the second.Oh well:o
Yes, that could also be the reason for the myth of leaching. Or, because the carbon is exausted which means it is not doing any good and the tank will show the results pretty quickly if you are not doing wc's. If you use it and change it often, it could be beneficial. Its up to the individual to how often and for what purpose.
We are getting along......at least I thought we were.
TJ.....As long as you have gravel, you will never be able to vacuum it completely clean. You can vacuum until you pass out and there will still be remaining waste that you missed which continues to build. Whatever you miss will just add to new waste for the next time you vacuum. Lighten the layer or go with something that compacts like sand so that you dont have waste and bacteria trapped like in gravel. You will then be able to vacuum surface and not worry about dredging up all the crap that happens when you vacuum gravel.

[Marinemom]

So I have this substrate in my discus tank that is about an inch thick called eco-complete. It is there because this is a fully planted aquarium. It has the consistency of sand or very fine gravel. When I do water changes, I lightly vacuum the surface of the substrate. This substrate is black, so if I go deeper I will have a real mess on my hands. If the substrate is only an inch thick and has this consistency is it O.K. for the discus? I really do not see this as a problem.

Marinemom

[Alight]

As with many of the recommendations about Discus, all I have is anecdotal evidence, nothing scientific. But a fair amount of experience suggests that unvacuumed gravel is not a good idea for juvies. For example, I've sold two people with very similar water conditions young discus and had those in a bare bottom tank grow and thrive, and those in a gravel substrate tank with eco complete get very sick, not eating and wasting away. Only those that were removed to a bare bottom tank survived.

In my own tanks, years ago I had problems in gravel tanks with juvie discus dying if I did not thoroughly vacuum the gravel on a regular basis.

More recently (last 10 years), the only problems I've had are some short term, digestive problems in juvie discus (not eating problems) when I didn't vacuum the gravel enough.

When I raise Juvies in bare bottom tanks, I never have these problems.

Of course, your mileage may vary, and you are free to come up with your own experiences which you are free to share on this site.

[Alight]

gravel tanks have higher bacteria counts, both benign and pathogenic, from having higher mulm levels.....It sounds like juvenile discus don't have a developed enough immune system capable of defending against these pathogenic bacteria levels...

Graham, You have nicely stated what many of us believe is the problem. I also believe that this is also at least one of the reasons that low nitrates seem to be a must for Discus of all ages. The problem is only partly the nitrate itself, but more the bacteria that nitrates and other associated DOCs grow.

I don't know of anyone using the enzyme approach. It would be interesting to know the answer.

[adzigogov2001]

Problem solved:
Dennerle, Elos i Dupla bottom heaters
Dennerle FB1 supstrate start, and before they had FB7, thats bacteria for the humus under the gravel(the whole gravel acts like a filter(not ugf)).
So no problem now, with the graveled,planted AQ.

Second Every body says AC this, AC that. Nobody mentioned how much AC did they had in the filters. This leads me to belive that none of you actualy used AC properly.

I know a guy that uses Ac in All of his AQ, but Octo doesn't say I have AC in my Tanks, He says this, for every 100 liters I use 1Kg of AC, During the summer periods I use 1.3Kg on Every 100 liters. This guy uses it since 1980.

For me, I'll never use AC because of saporelgia, The Myth confirmed, that Hard water combined with AC makes saphorelgia.

Thanks, but to continue the subj. please , say the amount AC used on how much water, the period used. and the manufacturer.

[adzigogov2001]

Often in places were there is hard water, like here, pH7.8 , gH 18+, kH 8. People that used AC in their AQs. Some sayed that on the uneaten food saporelgia started to form. I never beleived this, But when I started keeping discus 2 years ago. I added 500gr. Of AC manu. ARAMIN. And in the Filter and in the AQ, the uneaten granules of Sera discus red, Were like Snow flakes. Floating thru the AQ and in The filter. So when a cory (from transport) got hurt, it attached to it. Normaly the fish was Q. Mine Aq was Fully cycled , its 210 L and the Filter is 40 liters(DIY) with 30 liters of filter material The AC was at the End.
So what the AC does in Hard water, Don't know-Not Chemist. I'm guessing that it removes something that the bact. need for survival. I know that sapholelgia is a fungus, and it kicks sometnimes when the bio-filtration is at still. But in Mine Aq that wasn't the case. Another interestnig thing is that the algae dissapeard also. Why ? :confused:

But I'm telling You first hand, That it Happened to Me. After that I added Sera Super Peat, So no Problems What so ever. The AC never in Mine AQs again.

Sorry for the Eng. not Eng. speaking.

[adzigogov2001]

Now to think of it..
My plecos dissapeard, the time i put AC in the filter. So maybe it was all a coincidence:confused:
Looking from a perspective now, and had a weekend to think it thru. There is nothing in the AC, that will harm the AQ, with proper use.
So now I'm on a crossroad. Should I try useing it again?

[tatore]

.
The a c is a very interesting matter, so I have decided to say what I think and as I correctly use it.
The power "adsorbente" of the AC concerns and holds only molecules of chemical substances of a weight "limited", and it doesn't hold consequential substances from the cycle of the "Azoto" as nitrates, NO2 or phosphates.. in few words what derives from the synthesis of organic matter.
I exclude therefore that can be neither a solution against pathologies as the saprolegna, but nor even a material that develops illnesses.
As Graham has said, the AC, in the case of the saprolegna has become a fit substratum for organic matters that has accumulated above... but then everything changes because the peculiarities of the AC are well different.
(if we don't want to have problems of "miceti", better an UV-C) -
In aquariums with discus the AcI would never use it, because the aquarium normally contains precious "oligoelementi" for the growth of the fishes, of the plants (the AC hold the fertilizers) and therefore it changes the chemical composition of the water (it can be also a damage for the filter) -
For me it is important to use the AC to pre-filter thetap water, freeing it from chlorine and cloramine and other chemical substances with a "Delta"molecular weight, indeed hostile of the health of our fishes.
The Ac is useful in aquarium, inside the filter, only after pharmacological treatments. It isonly in this case.
I speak of my experience, because in my aquariums are present great quantities of tannin, precious element for "loricaridae" and wild discus.

[adzigogov2001]

In mine I filter thru sera super peat, so tanins yes. But I don't like the yeloowish color. Thats way I've put it in in the first place. I like the transparent look, Discus floating in mid air look. With peat no way looks like p*ss. But fish are happy, plants doing fine, so I'm happy too.