similar disease

[moik]

Hello, to everyone. have not been on forum in while due to some serious health problems, but as I get better my fish are getting bad .As i read Peri s thread I probably have some thing similar to her. My fish are dark and mucas buildup by the dorsal and anal fins. They are staying up towards the surface and repeatedly making short darting actions like they are trying to run from something ( not twirling in a circle motion) They are still eating readily but as of last night and today I lost about a dozen . Tried raising temp to 90 and added salt and parasite clear. The water fouls overnight easily like a white haze to the water. erverything was going goodf for about 2 years and just one day this mess started and still is continueing. Need help bad for i have a considerable amount of fish and dont want to see anymore losses Any help would be very appreciated.

[lhforbes12]

Lower the temperature immediately. Get it down to 82. Get yourself some Furan 2, treat them a minimum of 10 days. Keep the tank lights off during treatment. 50% wc every day. Full dose after wc. A picture would be nice but your description sounds bacterial, hence the Furan 2.

Larry

[moik]

So pretty much what you are saying that the high temp is doing more damadge than good- correct me if i am wrong . I f your suspision is right which I hope it is . Where the hell did this nightmare come from .I do more than regular water changes and keep these guys and girls in tip top shape. Just very curious where this bug came from .Thanks very much for the reply

[lhforbes12]

Yep, high temps accelerate bacteria. It came from the air, or your hands which were in a tank somewhere... or any of a million places.

[moik]

Well my other half is going to get the furan2 right now. I have been fighting this for about a week now and it looke like it was over and then it came back with a vengance. Could this be a parasite like costia or chilondella sorry if I spelled it wrong. Like I said it has been a week with this problem and no parasite cure worked yet

[Graham]

High temps will increase the metabolism of bacteria but something had to have changed that made conditions for them ideal.

Most all the pathogenic bacteria are in our tanks at all times but at numbers that the fish's immune system can handle. They become pathogens when the fish become stressed, damaged, or some other parameter changed allowing them to invade.

Muscus build up could be bacterial but it also could be parasitic......own a microscope? How much salt have you added?

G

[moik]

I have added 1 table spoon per 10 gal. I have just did a 100% water change about an hour ago the fish look a little more relaxed but you can tell something is still wrong. can I put furan2 and parasite clear to gether or what med should I use first . the parasite clear just did a little good but it came full circle again in a day or two

[Graham]

I'd go with the parasite chem...if there was some improvement and then a relapse a day or so later That tells me that there is some kind of life cycle going on and all you did with the one treatment is interupt it. Know anyone with a microscope...is there a local koi club.



Salt at 1 tablespoon per 10 gallons will have no affect on either parasites or bacteria, One tablespoon is 3 teaspoons...... and 1 teaspoon per 1 gallon is 0.1% salinity. This level will help osmoregulation and that's about it; 0.2% protects from nitrite and 0.3% will start to affect some parasites and some bacteria...so as you can see 3 teaspoons per 10 gallons would have little affect.

According to Dr Erik Johnson, wild discus and thier offspring cannot take these levels of salt, while domestic it's not supposed to be a problem...

[lhforbes12]

Do NOT use Furan 2 and Parasite Clear together

[moik]

so you say dont mix the two. I will try the parasite clear tonight and do a 100% water change tommorow and start the furan2 . If these were your fish what would your game plan be.

[lhforbes12]

I would wait for the Furan 2, Parasite Clear is going to do nothing for this IMO. BUT the very first thing I would do is lower the temp, and get your pH into the 6.x, the lower the better (Bacteria reproduce more slowly at low pH). Also adding 1 tablespoon or even 2 per 10 gallons will probably at least ease their discomfort. I would actually go for a much higher salt level used as a dip for 30 minutes or until they roll, whichever happens first. 5 tbsps per 10 gallons, make sure the salt is dissolved before you add any fish.

[Graham]

Sorry you're getting some conflicting advice here...While I also would not mix the two, I would use the Parasite Clear....The acriflavine in it will help with the bacterial infections if that's what this is. I personally would give it a shot 1st and follow the dosing protocol.

Here a link to the salt article on this site

http://www.simplydiscus.com/library/disease_medications/medicine_cabinet/

The 5 tablespoons per 10 gallons that Larry mentioned is about 15 teaspoons and that would be about 0.15% salinity........a very light dip for most fish,

Good luck and keep us posted

G

[moik]

well,I put the parasire clear in last night and hoped for the best. As of right now they look a little better ,but this is what happened before. The water did not foul like before. This is getting frustrating. I lowered the temp last night to 82 degrees.should i let parasite clear in for one more day like the directions say for a treatment is to be 48 hours then do a 100% water change then add the furan2.

[Graham]

Follow the dosing protocol exactly and repeat it...''........Wait 48 hours between treatments. Remove activated carbon. Change 25% of the water before each new treatment.....''

http://www.junglelabs.com/pages/details.asp?item=TB636

Furan is for bacteria only and this is not looking like a bacterial infection..

G

[Peri]

Hi,
Well my fishes have survived as i did as per Graham's instructions....

Changed 50% water every 8 hrs, added 4ml of Formalin (1ml/gal) and Salt 1tsp per gallon.. every 8 hrs... and never touched the temp, it remains at 28C... and it kindda worked now...

was able to save 4, and today the black coloration is gone, and one fish that had the spots on its body is totally recovered.

Hope yours too will survive...

And just a correction... i am not a her, but a he!!!

Regards
Pk

[moik]

well, as the roller coaster rides its way around .One good day 2-3 bad days. This bug keeps coming back. As of right now i did another 100% water change and started using furan2. My head is too raw from beating it off the wall, trying to fix this .I tried for almost 2 weeks with this problem . I can not get a 48 hour cycle out of parasite clear, the water fouls to fast. I ran out of parasite clear and couldnt make it to the lfs in trime to get more. will try getting some more tommorow or just get a bottle formalin. And peri sorry about the gender mix up.

[moik]

As i was just staring at my living room ceiling thinking about what went wrong.. I remember something weird that the tank after a water change would have a purpleish tint to it, then i changed foods from Hikari blood worms to Oregon Desert blood worms But out side of that. Does any of this ring a bell to someone to foresee this going bad.. I feel i do more than enough maintinance and dont over stock tanks. I use 40 gal breeder tanks for a pair of discus for example .I try to keep tanks under stocked for a reason. I dont know i guess i am just babbling on trying to get this figured out. Maybe as i look into my crystal ball I see myself buying a microscope.

[Graham]

Hi I know it can be frustrating as hell when you don't really know what you're battling. That's where using a scrape/scope comes in...it amazes me that no one around here uses them.

When you say that the water is fouling what do you mean....high NH3, pH dropping??


Some of the F&MG preps are a little to weak to give bugs a good wack....One that's used in the pond end of things, ProForm C is fairly weak but if you use up the dose to 1.5 times it works well. Needless to say air should be as high as possible using any formalin product.

Have any PP around?

Something else you could try is a full blown salt dip, but the fish will not be able to back to the tank they came out of as thier slime coat will be stripped...here's the link to salt on this site

http://www.simplydiscus.com/library/disease_medications/medicine_cabinet/salt.shtml

[moik]

hello, everyone As of right now i have good news to report. I quit using parasite meds and changed to furan 2. As soon as I changed to furan2 they reacted pretty well and fast to it . I did a complete cycle according to the directions and as of tonight i did a 100% water change. Hopefully they will start to get better and back to normal. It might of started off as a parasite issue then changed to a secondary infection. I would like to thank everybody that had very valuable info. Hopefully everything works out .Thanks again and I appreciate everybodies help alot.