Food for thought II...eye sizes of young discus

[Kenny's Discus]

Hi all,

First my disclaimer: the following is not directed at anyone. It's just for general discussion purposes.:)

I've noticed that many hobbyists these days when buying juvenile discus they always say their eye size are too big and thus they are stunted. I myself found this to be not true all the time. For instance, IME, on the "lighter" color strains like whites, yellows, albino, etc; because their base color is so light they make their eyes stand out more. But the same eye size can look not as BIG if they were a darker color strain like say Blue Turks/Leopards.

I have many pics here so bare with me.:D Take a look at the following pics at their eye sizes. Any thoughts on this will be welcome.

#1 White Diamond @ 2". Notice the eye size of both WDs are identical. What are the chances of both fish being stunted(ie: big eyes) at the same time?:confused:

[Kenny's Discus]

#2 His eyes look quite big in this pic(again 2") but look at the below pics of his growth progress.

[Kenny's Discus]

#3 The same white @ 4".

[Kenny's Discus]

#4 the same white now @ 6". Its eyes no longer look out of proportion at all.

[Kenny's Discus]

#5 another shot of him recently.

[Kenny's Discus]

#6 these were from a totally different pair of parents. They were about 2.5" and they too look to have "stunted" eyes.

[Kenny's Discus]

#7 I'm gonna borrow Anthony's("RED_DISCUS" here on SD) pics for further illustration purposes. I hope he doesn't mind.(I'm sending you a pm Anthony) Anthony got these several WDs from me when they were about 1.5" Their eyes also seemed quite big at that age.

[Kenny's Discus]

#8 Now look at this fish from Anthony's collection. Notice the eye size might be the same/similar as the above, but because of its "darker" base color the eye just doesn't stand out as much?

In addition to the above, I think the angle of the shots taken will play a very important role in how the discus' eyes would look. IME I've found that a discus' eye can look vastly different in pictures(ie: bigger), than seeing it in person.

Again any thoughts on this will be very welcome. Take care all.

Kenny

[Squiggy]

Maybe its me but the eye on Anthony's fish appears larger proportionally than the others. You may also be comparing apples and carrots as some of the asian bred are bred for different eye proportion. I'm not sure that that applies here....None of the fish pictured would appear to have any degree of irrepairable stunting...The fish in post 8 is the worst of those posted.

JMO...

Joe

[Kenny's Discus]

Hi Joe - no disrespect to you but just wanted to tell you that when Anthony bought those whites from me, he picked out all the bigger ones from a batch of about 50-60(I was there). I'm not saying this because I'm a seller or anything but I am just telling the truth here...they really weren't stunted. In fact they were the alpha(s) of the batch. But they do look to have big eyes, especially in pics. I want to know about this mysterious thing is why I posted them.

Thanks,
Kenny

[Squiggy]

No offense taken, Kenny...Just putting out an opinion for you. My point was that none of the fish appear stunted or large eyed to any significant degree. Body growth in juvies occurs in spurts while the eye grows fairly consistently. I would have no trouble accepting any of those fish. :D

Joe

[Kenny's Discus]

Thanks Joe, but haven't you noticed that when buying juvies 1 of the first things ppl will look at is their eye sizes? I mean if bigger eyes on smaller discus(like those in pic 1 & 2) is not so uncommon, how can we determine whether fish are truly stunted or not? And looking at the first few pics of my White Diamond I think I have a pretty good arguement there?:confused:

Others please feel free to input as I think this is a quite interesting discussion/observation. I'll see if I can find more photos like the ones above for more comparison...

Thanks,
Kenny

[Elcid]

Hey Kenny:

Nice thread. Personally I think it's genetic. Maybe, they have big eyes and poor vision!

take care,
Sandeep

[Squiggy]

Kenny..I'm probably tripping over my own wordage here but I think you're suggesting that a normal eye will appear large on a light fish but not on a dark fish. My observations of the photos is just the opposite...The scribble/turk ? appears to have the more disproportionate eye size to me.
BUT....none of them appear to be stunted. IME the eye grows consistently while the body grows in spurts. If a juvie misses one of its growth spurts or suffers poor growth during a few spurts, the proportion becomes obviously out of whack. None of these fish are exhibiting that....

my brain hurts....:crazy:

:D

Joe

[Kenny's Discus]

Thanks Sandeep. Is that an albino RGD? that's 1 fine looking discus but you know what? Eyes too big for my taste lol. (joking)

Now look at these 2 pics of the same fish. There were taken 2 days apart so that means there were no changes in size. Notice how pics taken at different angle can make its eye look drastically different?

#1 He looks a lil stunted to me!

[Kenny's Discus]

#2 His eyes look just about right in this one from a different angle.

[Elcid]

Hey Kenny:

I did much deliberation on this subject and finally decided that all fish that I want should have the following profile :D

take care,
Sandeep

[Kenny's Discus]

Thanks again for your input Joe. It's totally fine that we have different observation. We all have different opinions is what makes each of us unique. And don't worry about wording too much...lets just learn together on this.

If anything I have only myself to blame when I decided to use "food for thought II" as thread title.:D I think "Food for thought" = sensitive issues = 10,000 hits or more.:D

Please keep commenting it'll be very much appreciated!

Kenny

[Kenny's Discus]

Hey Kenny:

I did much deliberation on this subject and finally decided that all fish that I want should have the following profile :D

take care,
Sandeep

LOL Sandeep I'm sure there'll be a huge market for measuring the eye size of everyone's discus!:D You should try to come measure all of my fish's using your method and I'll refer you to others LOL!

Kenny

[Kindredspirit]

I would have no trouble accepting any of those fish. :D

Joe



:D

[Elcid]

LOL Sandeep I'm sure there'll be a huge market for measuring the eye size of everyone's discus!:D You should try to come measure all of my fish's using your method and I'll refer you to others LOL!

Kenny

Umm Kenny:

I was just using my guide to keep me from buying more fish! :p But if you have any that meet my criteria let's talk! :D I think maybe a custom tank that's only 2" wide would be good idea to take measurements? What do you think?

thanks,
Sandeep

[White Worm]

Hey Kenny:

Nice thread. Personally I think it's genetic. Maybe, they have big eyes and poor vision!

take care,
Sandeep
Where did ya get that cool lookin discus in #13?

[Squiggy]

Hey Kenny:

I did much deliberation on this subject and finally decided that all fish that I want should have the following profile :D

take care,
Sandeep


See....to me....that fish gots too many eyes....

but thats just me....:crazy:

[Elcid]

Where did ya get that cool lookin discus in #13?
Mike??? That's an ugly big eyed elongated color fed discus that cost a bomb! Forget it!

[Elcid]

See....to me....that fish gots too many eyes....

but thats just me....:crazy:

I'm just looking at my tank with pigeons and lss and the pigeons definately have a small eye relative to their body size than the LSS and to me I like beady eyed discus more than goldfish eye discus that's for sure! ;) It's not just the size of the eye though but also the position that's important. Also, I like the eye to be flush with the body not bulging out!

thanks,
Sandeep

[Kenny's Discus]

See....to me....that fish gots too many eyes....

but thats just me....:crazy:

LOL Joe...I don't mind a few more eyes, but at least they weren't as big as those!:D

Kenny

[White Worm]

Unless you look at it from this angle.. LMAO!!!!



16919

[Kenny's Discus]

Unless you look at it from this angle.. LMAO!!!!



16919

With that pic you know who you're inviting here Mike? Does WhoUcallin, Stunted ring a bell?:D (j/k Timmy, can't resist it:D )

Kenny

[adzigogov2001]

Isn't natures way for improving the discus vision in murky waters granted them large eyes.

Now what are we looking for in a discus very,very small eyes?
From previous posting, maybe lighting condition affect eye size?
More light small eyes, low light large eyes?:)

[Timbo]

Does WhoUcallin, Stunted ring a bell

in case your bell didnt ring....

[Kindredspirit]

That is just the saddest thing Tim ~ honestly ~ You don't know if you want to cull it or hug it ~


....only you!! lol!!

Marie ~http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/16/16_14_21.gif

[Kenny's Discus]

That is just the saddest thing Tim ~ honestly ~ You don't know if you want to cull it or hug it ~


....only you!! lol!!

Marie ~http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/16/16_14_21.gif

I'd say hug it first, then cull...:o

Kenny

[Kenny's Discus]

I'm still very curious to hear other hobbyists'/experts' take on this topic. To make a little summary, I guess the main points that I've put up for discussion are:

1, When looking at juvenile discus in pictures, sometimes their eye size appear larger than their true size.(depends on the angle taken)

2, For light color strains, discus eye size appear larger since their light base color makes their eye stand out more.

Of course, I could be wrong...it's just my own opinion which were formed from my own past experience. That is why I so would like to hear others' opinion on this.

Thanks in advance!
Kenny

[AmberC]

This is very interesting Kenny! I do know when I go into the lfs and see all the little ones they are selling as "juvies" the eyes always look big. Always. I have yet to see one whose eyes look proportionate to the body. Its always made me wonder. I think you are onto something!

Amber

[aquaticplantman]

Here's my take:

It seems that the white diamonds just generally have bigger eyes at all stages of development. It is less pronounced when the fish is fully grown. Pidgeon strains have generally smaller smallers eyes at all stages of development. Other strains fall in between, and it can therefore be more easily judged if the fish is stunted or not.

I don't have any genetic data to back that up -- it's just over the course of many observations. Anybody else notice the same trends.

I've never thought that lighting or photo angles play much part in eye size except that most photos do portray a poorer over-all quality than if you were to see the fish in person.

By the way, I don't think that a white diamond is a lesser fish just because I think they have larger eyes. That's the way they all seem to be, and that's just the way they are.

-- Matt H.

[tpl*co]

hmmm, interesting topic,

Somebody posted that the eyes grow at a constant rate while the fish grows in spurts.

I noticed in some of my strains of fish that some grow faster than others (my pigeon based the fastest followed by my blues like the RT and solid blues and then the white based red/whites and whites seem to grow the slowest, at least in my tank). Everybody gets the same food and conditions.

On this note, could the fast growth rate of the pigeons vs the white discus equate to them growing faster than their eyes giving them the appearance of smaller eyes earlier in age? The white discus with their slower growth rate would be similar to a puppy growing into big paws or they have to catch up?

Tina

[Timbo]

That is just the saddest thing Tim ~ honestly ~

hehe, i wouldnt have fish like that in my tanks. i just found that pic somewhere...it was photochopped too im fairly certain

[Kindredspirit]

I know you wouldnt! I figured it was altered some way ~ but only you cld pull that off:)

Marie ~ http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/29/29_2_15.gif

[Tony_S]

Eyeballs 101...by Tony

Aside from the fact that different color types/strains show slight variations in relative eye size(also noticeable in European bred vs. Asian bred) I believe you can tell SOMETHING from relative eye size...What that 'something' is, can be highly variable from instance to instance IMO.

In some cases, it means nothing(small difference in 'proper' proportions)
In other cases, it can be a good indicator of previous care, previous health and possibly, future potential.
I personally think its a better indicator of past care, than future potential, but with that said....the first 2-3 months of life is the most important developmental time for a discus as well...so IMO it can be an indicator of potential.

Does it mean any given discus with large eyes will stay a 'runt' the rest of its life? IMO.....no.
CAN it mean that the discus in question will never reach its full genetic potential? Absolutely!

Clear as mud??

Adult wilds are a good example to use here....We've all seen wild discus adults that have LARGE EYES. Why is that? IMO, its mainly a question of nutrition in the wild ie. Food availability....If a juvenile discus is having a difficult time finding food, it's growth slows, or stops all together. Its eyes don't, and the eyes become disproportionate....as the season progresses, food becomes more available and growth increases...but never 'catches up' with the eyes....it eventually reaches 'adulthood' after many highs and lows in its dietary needs as a 5-6 inch TL discus with large eyes.(very common)

Take the same wild discus juvenile, and allow it to feed freely in an area with an abundance of forage, all year long...and you'll get a discus that reaches 'adulthood' and achieves its full genetic potential of possibly 7-8 inches TL, with proportionate eyes.

It's a tough call for someone new to the hobby to make, as they stand in front of a tank of discus....if in doubt, walk away.


Tony

[Kenny's Discus]

Thanks Tony for taking your time to comment here, I really appreciate it!

I understand your comparison between your 5-6 TL Wild discus & 7-8 TL examples Tony, I totally agree.

My apology I guess I didn't make it clear enough...what I'm actually trying to find out is why a 2-3 months old discus, despite given all possible care,(ie: food, WCs, etc...) might still develop large eyes that are disproportional to its overall body size. I'm talking about the whole batch of juvies. I've seen this happened a few times in the past: these juvies even had high bodies and fat bellies all the time, but still when you look closely at their eyes size at that age(2-3 months old), their eyes just tend to look big/stunted. But I know they're not because I've seen how they grew eventually...

Thanks again Tony for your thorough explanation.

Kenny

[Kenny's Discus]

ok Tony I dug up more photos here and I think this time you'll understand what I meant...take a look at them.

#1 I bred these guys/gals a while back. I fed them like 5 times a day(pellets, FBWs, live worms) with one or two 90% WCs daily. Notice their body shapes look fine and bellies full, but their eyes looked big(every one of them). They're a red white cross btw.

[Kenny's Discus]

#2 another shot of them. Because as I said they were a white cross it's why I thought light color strains make their eyes stand out more than other strains, especially in pics.

In these pics if I remember correctly they were ~ 2.5-3 months old.

[Tony_S]

...what I'm actually trying to find out is why a 2-3 months old discus, despite given all possible care,(ie: food, WCs, etc...) might still develop large eyes that are disproportional to its overall body size.

Kenny

I had another quick look at the photo's that you posted...the only ones that I find to be VERY disproportionate are the Snow Whites. But in all honesty I cant say that the juveniles eye's are any more out of proportion than the adults(maybe even less so)...The adults eye's look HUGE also! In a case like that, I would hazard a guess and say its purely genetic for that line. You could counter that the good ol' "7 eye height rule" is met with the adults...but IMO that's only because of the shape of the head (ie, the steep slant of the forehead) Change the shape of the head, and these fish could fail that test miserably!

LOL! Maybe I'm still not gettin it!;)

Tony

[Kenny's Discus]

#3 They were about 4 months old here. They really had good body shapes and I think as their body expand their eyes started to not look so pronounced.

[Kenny's Discus]

#4 Last one. Here he's about 6-7 months old. Eye size look a lil more normal?

[Kenny's Discus]

Kenny

I had another quick look at the photo's that you posted...the only ones that I find to be VERY disproportionate are the Snow Whites. But in all honesty I cant say that the juveniles eye's are any more out of proportion than the adults(maybe even less so)...The adults eye's look HUGE also! In a case like that, I would hazard a guess and say its purely genetic for that line. You could counter that the good ol' "7 eye height rule" is met with the adults...but IMO that's only because of the shape of the head (ie, the steep slant of the forehead) Change the shape of the head, and these fish could fail that test miserably!

LOL! Maybe I'm still not gettin it!;)

Tony

Thanks Tony I guess you're right on in that it's probably genetic and there's really not much one can do if you had to breed that line. :( You're definitely getting it this time Tony but I'm not quite sure if I'm getting it myself!:D Upon reading this thread again I know it's very confusing and I apologize to everyone who's reading this.

Take care Tony & others. Thanks for all your input!
Kenny

[Kindredspirit]

I don't think that a white diamond is a lesser fish just because I think they have larger eyes. That's the way they all seem to be, and that's just the way they are.

-- Matt H.


So Matt....How wld you know if they are stunted or not? I guess one wld wait til they reach or if they reach full growth potential? I guess I mean how does one when looking or judging a juvie.....how do they know or how could they know .....that this particular strain has big eyes to begin with and evens out when adults or.....still has somewhat larger eyes when adults?

That probably doesnt make any sense whatsoever:(


I am so trying to understand this ~


Marie ~ http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/29/29_2_15.gif

[Kenny's Discus]

So Matt....How wld you know if they are stunted or not? I guess one wld wait til they reach or if they reach full growth potential? I guess I mean how does one when looking or judging a juvie.....how do they know or how could they know .....that this particular strain has big eyes to begin with and evens out when adults or.....still has somewhat larger eyes when adults?
Marie ~ http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/29/29_2_15.gif

That's exactly what I was trying to ask Marie. Thanks for putting that up for me.:p

Kenny

[JimmyL]

Eye size cannot tell if the fish is stunted. It depends on many factors. Mainly due to the TLC of the breeders. Minieral content of the local water also plays a big role. Imported fish from the East are usually raised in soft water will have larger eyes. If the breeder invest money on their higer grade fish by adding salt and minerals that can be factored into the cost of the fish. Their growth and eye size would be small regardless of strain. Snow white strain has black eye ring and clear eyes shows larger compared to the brown or blue head color with red eyes. They all grow at the same rate if they are free of worms and feed properly. Stunted fish or juvenile has a period of malnutrition will have uneven fins development.
Jimmy

[pcsb23]

A couple of observations. With juvenile fish, given that they have the proper care, they develop from arrow shaped to round during the mid to late months of their frst year. Whilst they are truly juvenile (and at this point NOT stunted, growing around three quarters to one inch per month) and arrow headed the relative amount of forehead above the eye is less than it would be if it were round. Hope that makes sense, as the next bit builds on it :)

Now if you were to imagine the forehead rounded out on the juvenile and use that to asses the eye size you would see in most cases that the eye is in fact in proportion.

The eye size, colour and clarity are all indicators of current health and past care. I think Tony said as much too.

How do you tell if a juvenile is behind in its growth rate? Well there are other indications other than eye size, depending on type if they have started to colour up, and round out on the forehead, yet remain football (oval or rugby ball for the UK :)) shaped these are good indicators that they may be behind in growth. Patterning also is a good indicator, if for example an RSG is showing a lot of spots at sy 2.5 or 3" SL then I would be suspicious of its age, it should be 12 to 14 weeks (approx) at that size, bt the spots would indicate 16+ weeks.

Now it is my opionion that some strains have a slightly larger eye than other strains, and I believe this to be genetic. This is only from my personal observations and not based on any scientific study. I'e often though Ocean Greens tend to have a slightly larger eye, however they should still fit in with the previous stated 7.5 eye rule, although I still consider a 7:1 ratio good.

Does colour make a difference to how the eye appears? well fat people shouldn't wear horizontal stripes! so maybe, I don't believe it affects the way I see it though.

Does the photograph and angle make a difference? well they say the camera never lies! However in truth I believe it does make a difference, a soft focused picture in low light will more often than not give the impresion of a bigger eye, partly due to not being able to clearly delineate the edges I think. Whereas a clear sharply focused picture with good light tends to reveal the detail clearly and allow a much better judgement. The angle of the picture though can have a much more significant effect. Looka at an ordinary 12" ruler laid flat on a desk, your eyes have to scan to see each end, now pick the ruler up and hold it at 45 degrees pointing away from you, it now appears to be half the length.

Sorry for the long response, but an interesting topic with a different perspective on an age old problem. Good one Kenny!

[Kindredspirit]

Snow white strain has black eye ring and clear eyes shows larger compared to the brown or blue head color with red eyes. .
Jimmy


I knew it! But it sounded ridiculous when I thought that:( Thanks Jimmy! You explained a lot and very easy to grasp!


Marie ~ http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/16/16_4_10.gif

[Kindredspirit]

.

Does colour make a difference to how the eye appears? well fat people shouldn't wear horizontal stripes! so maybe, I don't believe it affects the way I see it though.



But Paul....when fat people wear horizontal stripes it DOES make them appear larger ~

an optical illusion at its best ~

So ~ Color may make a dif to some ~ esp for those that do not know how to look beyond that as the experts can ~ such as you:)


Marie ~ http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/16/16_4_10.gif

[Elcid]

Hey Kenny:

Wow, so many heavyweights into the discussion. We are all blessed. I wanted to post this pics that Anand sent me a while back to add to your debate. For those of you who don't know Anand, he is a "Somewhat respected by many" breeder/hobbiest in the USA.

HTH,
Sandeep

[aquaticplantman]

So Matt....How wld you know if they are stunted or not? I guess one wld wait til they reach or if they reach full growth potential? I guess I mean how does one when looking or judging a juvie.....how do they know or how could they know .....that this particular strain has big eyes to begin with and evens out when adults or.....still has somewhat larger eyes when adults?

That probably doesnt make any sense whatsoever:(


I am so trying to understand this ~


Marie ~ http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/29/29_2_15.gif

I think that others have posted many indicators of "stuntedness" already in this post. My main point is that if I were thinking about buying a batch of snow white juvies, I wouldn't be as picky about wanting them to have nice small eyes because IMO that entire strain usually has somewhat larger eyes proportionately.

Again, nice thread everyone.

-- Matt H.

[tpl*co]

Eye size cannot tell if the fish is stunted. It depends on many factors. Mainly due to the TLC of the breeders. Minieral content of the local water also plays a big role.
Jimmy


Kenny, are you growing out the juvies in the same tap water as your breeders and isn't your water really soft? Could this possibly be it? Tried to take a picture of the whites I got from you about 6 months back but the pictures were fuzzy since they weren't cooperating :).

Tina

[JimmyL]

This is one of the major challenge facing some Asian breeders to keep the cost down by not adding minerals in their water that needs 100% W/C twice a day. Their growth rate will be slowly and most will have larger eyes but they are not stunted. They will grow to 5" but not mega size. Sometimes that explain why the locally bred discus grow faster and larger.
Jimmy

[Green Country Discus]

Kenny, I have been watching this thread with interest and have not so far replied LOL. But , IMHO as already stated by others, I feel that the big eyes are genetic..period...outside of poor raising techniques. I have a line of Cobalts that are naturally big eyed like some of the older strains. I do believe that I have culled some nice fish from this line just trying to figure them out :p .

I started a post earlier in the year raising fry in soft water http://forum.simplydiscus.com//showthread.php?t=47023, the only change I preformed was to keep them in soft water for 8 weeks to see if anything responded differently than other spawns I have raised. Some interesting points were made and noted...no science..some lack of controls...but I will post a pic of one of the participants. I do not see a large eye on this one. What do you think??

[Kenny's Discus]

Hi Jimmy - thanks for your thought on this. Re your info for future spawns I'll try to raise the water hardness and see if it'll make a difference for the frys growth/eye size.

"Look at an ordinary 12" ruler laid flat on a desk, your eyes have to scan to see each end, now pick the ruler up and hold it at 45 degrees pointing away from you, it now appears to be half the length."

Hi Paul - thank you for your lengthy response on this subject. In additional to most that you've mentioned, I especially agree with you on your ruler analogy. That was what I was trying to get accross by post those pics from different angles. Thank you Paul!

Hi Marie - thanks for dropping by. I do think sometimes "optical illusion" is in play here in a way...

Hi Sandeep - thank you for posting Anand's WD pic. It does look to have smaller eye than my adult WD....well if that's the case, I guess it means that sometimes undesirable trait is being passed on(so it can happen to any color strains) rather than say only WDs have bigger eyes? It's getting complicated my friend lol!

Hi Matt - personally from my exp. I'd have to agree with your observation.

Hi Tina - yes our water parameters are very similar in that they are both very soft. I think like I said above the best way to test this is to raise the hardness level when raising future frys. I'll update you on this when it's done. Thanks Tina for trying to take pics for this discussion.

Hi Andrew - no the fish in your pic have very good eye size. Andrew do you still have the link for the thread where such experiment was done on? I'd really like to see some general difference/results from that, be it scientific or not...

Thank you everyone for your input. Sry for starting such a complicated topic.:o

Kenny

[Green Country Discus]

Kenny,sorry my friend, I edtied my thread to include the link while you were posting LOL.

[Kenny's Discus]

Not a problem at all Andrew!:) I thank you for taking your time to put up the link for us. I'm sure we can learn something from your experiment. I'm going there right now!;) Thanks again buddy.

Kenny

[CliffsDiscus]

Hey Kenny,


There are only a couple of reasons that comes to my mine,
first if ALL of the light body and show big eyes then it would be a tech
problem. I don't see a water problem in your area as Tom Richardson lives
less then a mile from you and has grown the Snowflake up
to dinner size also this person has the Snowflake with Red Eyes that show
no undergrowth eye problem.
Second if the problem is only to ONE pair's offspring then it would be genetic.
This is just me two cents worth, hope this will help.

Cliff

[Elcid]

Hey Kenny:

Don't drive yourself crazy. Ppl who know you know that your fish get the best of care and ppl should buy them over any import IMO. Ur doing a swell job no reason to change. ;)

From a photographing point of view there are many variables; the angle of the shot, the focal length of the lens, the lighting, even the thickness of the glass of the tank can make a fish look different than it actually is. Heck when I wear my glasses my fish look different than when I'm wearing contacts. In the end your wife takes much better pics than most sellers :) Keep up the good work! Buyers are too lucky to see your pics and buy ur fish! I wish all sellers do as good a job.

Now how's that shipping depart coming? Hey you know I haven't bought a single home bread fish yet after returning to the hobby. Come on guyz I wanna see show quality potential 2"ers in the buy and sell section!

take care,
Sandeep

[Kenny's Discus]

Hi Cliff - IMHO I do not think it's a tech issue...after reading everyone's opinion I'm leaning toward thinking it's genetic. I've no problem raising these juvies to adults too Cliff but it's just that when they were young these light color strains' eyes will tend to look bigger, especially in pics. I'm breaking this line up so that if it's genetic it will no longer be passed on.

Kenny

[Kindredspirit]

Hey Kenny:

Don't drive yourself crazy. Ppl who know you know that your fish get the best of care and ppl should buy them over any import IMO. Ur doing a swell job no reason to change. ;)



http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/23/23_30_126.gif

[Kenny's Discus]

Hi Sandeep - what can I say...thank you so much for your encouragement & kind comments. It helped a lot in easing my pain to try to find out about this mystery.:D

I think you are the one who can produce show quality potential 2"ers! How them frys doing my friend?

Kenny

[White Worm]

Hey Kenny:

Don't drive yourself crazy. Ppl who know you know that your fish get the best of care and ppl should buy them over any import IMO. Ur doing a swell job no reason to change. ;)

Buyers are too lucky to see your pics and buy ur fish! I wish all sellers do as good a job.



AMEN!!! If you know Kenny, you have no doubt that he does everything possible to increase the quality of the hobby. Anyone that has fish from him in their tanks or has dealt with Kenny knows what I am talking about. You couldnt find a nicer person / breeder / seller.

[Elcid]

Oh No Kenny:

When you start with petshop grade fish you end-up with petshop grade fish! Be patient though, I haven't giving up! ;)

take care,
Sandeep

[Kenny's Discus]

Mike - thank you truly and I'm glad you look at me like that. I've always tried to do the same to anyone no matter if it's a good old friend like you, or any hobbyist visiting me the first time. I'm no different than anyone because I'm a hobbyist myself...maybe a lil more "hardcore" than the average that is.;)

Take care buddy!
Kenny

[Kenny's Discus]

Oh No Kenny:

When you start with petshop grade fish you end-up with petshop grade fish! Be patient though, I haven't giving up! ;)

take care,
Sandeep

Hi Sandeep - :D which petshop in your area carry LSSs now? I'd say you got something up your sleeves! LOL (j/k)

Kenny

[Elcid]

Hi Sandeep - :D which petshop in your area carry LSSs now? I'd say you got something up your sleeves! LOL (j/k)

Kenny

Why Kenny:

All petshops in my area carry LSS, they are in high demand :p I even saw a bunch in PetsPlus last week, fully spotted and small eyes too at 2" :) My babies they don't have color they don't have spots! NObody would want those, not even petshops!

take care,
Sandeep

[Timbo]

I even saw a bunch in PetsPlus last week, fully spotted and small eyes too at 2" :) i would strongly suspect hormoning if they are fully spotted at 2"

[Beth]

I'm breaking this line up so that if it's genetic it will no longer be passed on.

Hi Kenny........

Have you tried spawning that male with any other females with or without colour ?? If so..... how do the eyes on those fry look ?? What about that female ?? Has she sucessfully spawned with another male ?? Just really curious ??

Thanks
Beth

[Elcid]

i would strongly suspect hormoning if they are fully spotted at 2"

Oh no, PetsPlus is a reputable outfit. I doubt they would sell hormoned fish! They are probably just fed a lot of tetrabit ;)

HTH,
Sandeep

[Timbo]

fully spotted discus at 2" from feeding tetrabits? dont think so

[Kenny's Discus]

Hi Kenny........

Have you tried spawning that male with any other females with or without colour ?? If so..... how do the eyes on those fry look ?? What about that female ?? Has she sucessfully spawned with another male ?? Just really curious ??

Thanks
Beth

Hi Beth - I personally have not, but my breeder friend has just gotten a spawn from this female with another male. The frys are about 20 days old and last time when I was there, I took a big scoop of frys while he was away.:D(discus thieves are very commonly seen in our area LOL) They're now in my tank and I'll monitor their progress.(especially their eyes) When they grow bigger I'll post them for further discussion. Maybe I'll post it on "Food for thought III" ?:D (j/k)

Thanks Beth, take care!
Kenny

[tpl*co]

OK, tried to take some pictures of some babies I got from Kenny last spring and winter. (bad pictures but hard to take a picture in the temperary tank with them moving all over the place waiting for dinner)

Here's a blue baby

Tina

[tpl*co]

picture of a red white baby (smaller and younger than rest)

Tina

[tpl*co]

A white baby I got from Kenny

[tpl*co]

Another picture of a white baby, pictures blurry but you can see the eyes are proportional (considering it is a juvie)

Tina

[Kenny's Discus]

They look fine Tina. Some are quite round while others are a bit less round but that's nature. Considering your photography skill (j/k) I think they'll be okay, especially the 1st and the 4th.

I'm scratching my head here Tina...the 1st pic is that a blue scorpion? Did you get that from me last yr? I must have REEEEEEEEEALLY bad memory these days...:(

Thanks for sharing them Tina. :)
Kenny

[tpl*co]

They look fine Tina. Some are quite round while others are a bit less round but that's nature. Considering your photography skill (j/k) I think they'll be okay, especially the 1st and the 4th.

I'm scratching my head here Tina...the 1st pic is that a blue scorpion? Did you get that from me last yr? I must have REEEEEEEEEALLY bad memory these days...:(

Thanks for sharing them Tina. :)
Kenny

Yep Kenny they came from you. Remember those 2 blue fish you said I had to get to round out the white fish? LOL, one is shaping up to be large (see your Cobra snake male in the background? LOL, the baby is not much smaller.

Tina

[candyl70]

Hey Kenny,

On reading up on this thread, I have also noticed this in fish with red eyes, especially blue diamonds, or even some pigeon strains. I have a bunch of fish here from various places. One thing I have seen in my experiences is that some of the fish that I have , have grown sooooooo slow, but they did, and some still are, but their eye size looks much bigger than the body.
If I hadn't seen them grow, I would have that they were stunted, sometimes I still wonder if they will ever grow.

Then I have some that came with larger eyes and haven't grown at all since I have had them. These fish have all received the exact same care. So here I have to think that it is genetic, along with the vibrancy of the eye color compared against lighter bodies. Of course I don't have a ton of fish and haven't raised tankfulls, this is just my observation in my own tanks.

[Kenny's Discus]

Hey Kenny,

On reading up on this thread, I have also noticed this in fish with red eyes, especially blue diamonds, or even some pigeon strains. I have a bunch of fish here from various places. One thing I have seen in my experiences is that some of the fish that I have , have grown sooooooo slow, but they did, and some still are, but their eye size looks much bigger than the body.
If I hadn't seen them grow, I would have that they were stunted, sometimes I still wonder if they will ever grow.

Then I have some that came with larger eyes and haven't grown at all since I have had them. These fish have all received the exact same care. So here I have to think that it is genetic, along with the vibrancy of the eye color compared against lighter bodies. Of course I don't have a ton of fish and haven't raised tankfulls, this is just my observation in my own tanks.

Hi Candy - thanks for dropping by. After gathering everyone' opinion here(I appreciate that very much friends!) I think it's genetic also. But as I said on my reply to Beth above, I'm in the process of growing about 20 frys from the same female here(with a different male) and I'll see how this experiment goes. It might not tell us much as there're still a few other variables in play here but I think it's a start. For me, the need to find this out is just too great! :p

Thanks for your input Candy!
Kenny

[candyl70]

That is great that you are trying to find out some data for yourself Kenny. I wish that I could have a setup to do the same things as I am very curious about many things concerning the genetics of these fish. Please let us know when you get fry how your experiment is going.

This is a great topic and I thank you for posting it as I don't know if the whole eye size to body ratio is always that cut and dry.

Take care friend!

[White Worm]

Yep, and as soon as you grow them to saucer size, i'll take them off your hands because I know you will not have the room for them..:D :D :D

[Kenny's Discus]

Yep, and as soon as you grow them to saucer size, i'll take them off your hands because I know you will not have the room for them..:D :D :D

Actually you were right on Mike...especially after I pulled the four bottom 55gs out, I am kinda running outta tank space. I might need you to house a few frys(like 200 lol) for me in the near future. LOL

Thanks buddy.
Kenny

[White Worm]

200 :shocked2:

[Kenny's Discus]

that's 1 good looking smiley! I like him a lot...look at his huge "eye-size"! :D

Kenny

[White Worm]

Yeah, his eyes are a little out of proportion but he's cool!

[Kindredspirit]

200??? http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/4/4_6_100.gif



( and he wld too:) )

[Elcid]

Actually you were right on Mike...especially after I pulled the four bottom 55gs out, I am kinda running outta tank space. I might need you to house a few frys(like 200 lol) for me in the near future. LOL

Thanks buddy.
Kenny

Hey Kenny:

I was only thinking that getting rid of the bottom row of tanks was in preperation for new LARGER GROWOUT TANKS? What's up with that? ;)

thanks,
Sandeep

[Kindredspirit]

Hey Kenny:

I was only thinking that getting rid of the bottom row of tanks was in preperation for new LARGER GROWOUT TANKS? What's up with that? ;)

thanks,
Sandeep


I dont know why you decided to sell those four tanks Kenny ...ya know it is a matter of time before you fill back up that empty shelf again.....:D

It is a tangled web we weave, eh? ( barb!)


Marie ~ :bandana:

[AmberC]

I dont know why you decided to sell those four tanks Kenny ...ya know it is a matter of time before you fill back up that empty shelf again.....:D

It is a tangled web we weave, eh? ( barb!)


Marie ~ :bandana:

I'll bet on that one! http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/7/7_15_11.gif J/K :D

Amber

[Kenny's Discus]

Hi Sandeep, Marie & Amber - thanks but no thanks:D , at least not for now. I decided to remove the bottom 4 tanks because my main drainage pipe level in the garage is set higher than what normally is(it's not on the floor)...so since I drain all my tanks using gravity feed it took forever to drain the bottom tanks. I guess I could add an external pump to do the job but I don't like to use the existing fill pipes as drain as well because of possible contaminaton reasons, and I'm too lazy to build another set of pvcs mainly for drainage. Upon considering all of the above, I said "PULL THEM" !!!:D I think it can be classified as "downsizing"...lol

Thanks guys, have a good 1 !
Kenny

[brewmaster15]

This has been an interesting thread, alot of good thought and discussion went into it. I missed all this while it was going on but just read thru it all.

my comments are more of a speculative nature....

Some references to wilds... from what I have seen wild greens have larger eyes on the average...maybe thats from the food availible where they live or not..The best wild fish I have seen for eye to body ratio are the Browns..., next would be the blues....
If theres a genetic link to eye size..I wonder if it is related to these observations in some ways. All of domestic have the genetics of these wilds to some degree.

Eye size is selectively bred...Breeders are defining this quality every time they cull from a spawn...Even if they aren't intentionally culling on eye size...but growth.. we cull the "runts" keep the fastest growers..which also tends to select for those with big bodies and small eyes.
This kind of selection in a breeding program is common everywhere.....I do think however that we can go over board on selecting a trait...

The drive for smaller eyes may eventually lead to non functional eyes...which means poor growth rates and poor hatch survival..if you can't see your food ...how can you eat it? This is just my personal thoughts on where we as hobbyists could have issues in the future. We already know that there are discus eye defects that prevent them from being able to catch food dropped in front of them..we say those fish have a genetic eye problem.

I wonder how small an eye we will conceivebly be able to breed a fish with. I wonder how small an eye we really need to have in our fish.. I am an avid biologist and big into reptiles.... recently some have succeeded in breeding an eyeless turtle.. yes thats right..its got no eyes. Is that ultimately what we will acheive with discus...I honestly hope not. I think sometimes as hobbyists we go overboard in our attempt to tame our hobby and mold into exactly what we want. I hope we don't regret the focus we have put on eye size as a parameter. ...sad to say..its one of the first things I look at.:(

-al

ps...on the turtle..you can see it here...
http://www.turtlesale.com/rare-turtles1.html

[lhforbes12]

I too have just read this thread for the first time, and I found it interesting in a number of ways. I agree mostly with Tony, Paul, Joe, and Al, which is no great surprise. I would like to make an observation of my own though.
Oftentimes people will say the fish looks stunted because it has big eyes, but I think they are really seeing a number of other issues and just using the large eyes as a kind of "shorthand". Adult colors on a small fish, oval body on an adult colored fish always seem to go along with the large eye syndrome.
I forget who brought it up, but I think an oval body would almost certainly cause the eyes to appear larger than they are. Also, the pictures that Kenny posted all pretty much show perfectly fine sized eyes to my mind, which I think is what led to some confusion at the beginning of this thread.
I have stated quite a number of times on this site what Al just said, breeding for small eyes, to my mind, is contrary to the well being of the fish. Also note that recent wild populations F1, F2, etc. all still have somewhat large eyes, even when grown under more or less perfect conditions.

[Ryan]

Do you think there is a connection between breeding for small eyes and a lot of the fish not being able to hit their food properly? I've noticed more and more questions in the last 3 or 4 years about fish with bad depth perception/eyesight. I've even had several that cannot properly hit their food, while other species (angelfish, rams, etc.) don't seem to ever have this issue. I've often wondered if trying to get small eyes on discus is hurting their ability to properly seek out food. After all, one of the traits of most cichlids is large eyes...

Ryan

[lhforbes12]

Ryan,
Although I have absolutely no proof at all, I do agree with you. I would also like to add that Cichlids use visual cues to communicate, giving them poor eyesight adds poor communication skills to an already debilitating situation IMO.

[brewmaster15]

Ryan,
I don't know for sure, but I do think that its fair to reason that its a strong possibility. Just the basic biology of the eye indicates this.

I have no true evidence and have not dissected eyes of a large eyed wild and highly bred small eyed domestic, but its stands to reason..there is probably less of everything in the small eye. less surface areas for light to be gathered from..less nerves etc. At some point that has to start affecting vision. I have seen alot of fish that have poor vision..my wilds rarely miss when they strike their food..not so with alot of domestics..its not an uncommon complaint that hobbyists have where their fish miss the food.

Theres also field of view issues.. A larger eye offers the benefits of having a better field of view. Next theres the issue of shape of skull and placement of that eye...again affecting field of view. Finally as I mentioned before...A larger eye has the potential to offer better vision in low light ...just by nature.

I'm not advocating that all discus should havel arge eyes, a little manipulation by us as breeders and hobbyists is inevitable. This is something I do myself....but theres so many examples where we go overboard..like in that eyelessturtle.. There many more examples..MY sister-in-law has a bull dog ...its face was bred to be a certain shape...problem is that shape is so out of whack that many need surgery just to breath well.

These are again just some speculations I have.. and some worries.

take care,
al

[Kindredspirit]

..like in that eyelessturtle..
I have.. and some worries.

take care,
al


That was incredible ~ that eyeless turtle ~ I cld not believe that or some others on that site ~ two-headed turtle?

Wow ~

And all this is done deliberately on those turtles? I see your point as a Bioglist I wld be worried as well ~ What's that saying: "the road to hell is paved with good intentions"

Marie ~ http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/4/4_13_13.gif