New to discus, need answers

[Veteric]

Hey all,
I've been keeping fish for a few years, I'm just getting into discus now, and I'm running into typical problems before I even get the fish. For one, I'm going nuts with water quality issues. Everyone likes to term things as to "water changes by x percent per week/day" but what I want to know is whether there's realy more to it than a nitrate requirement beyond "keeping it below 20ppm" as I've read in so many places. I guess I get tired of hearing from a bunch of sources on one side saying i can get away with 20% weekly changes and another talking about 50%+ daily changes even when not breeding. I'm going to be running a heavily planted tank as well, with UV sterilization, and I plan on leaving the substrate bare up front for feeding purposes.

[AADiscus]

If you are going to start out with a heavily planted tank, start out with 4" plus fish and still do all the wc's you can. I would stay away from buying juvies if you are going to have a planted tank, due to there requirement for lots of feeding and large daily wc's to keep there tank clean. The minimum temp the discus needs to be at is 82. So make sure your plants can stand the higher temps for optimal growth.

[swinters66]

Hi AA...

Well I too am new to discus (i have 4). I spent hours online reading anything I could about keeping these fish, and yes, I ran into conflicting care regarding discus. So far, my fish are doing great. Took them awhile to start eating though. Other than that...I am finding its not that difficult to care for them. Basically, for me anyway...as long as I keep good filters going & clean them regularly, keep the water temp warm and do small water changes every other day, all is good in their tank. I have gravel, so cleaning it every other day, first thing in the morning works for me and its good for the fish. Mine isnt a large tank, so water changes dont take me long at all to do.

And I was lucky that the discus I bought, the fish stores PH in their tanks were the same as my tank water...so the fish settled in nicely.

I hope you get your discus tank up and running! I enjoy mine much more than I thought!!

[Ed13]

If you are going to start out with a heavily planted tank, start out with 4" plus fish and still do all the wc's you can. I would stay away from buying juvies if you are going to have a planted tank, due to there requirement for lots of feeding and large daily wc's to keep there tank clean. The minimum temp the discus needs to be at is 82. So make sure your plants can stand the higher temps for optimal growth.

This is pretty good advice. I've been commissioned to do a lot of set ups where the tanks are planted with discus. IME all depends on the final look you want to achieve. You've already taken one step in the right direction in allowing a space for the fish to feed.
Things that I' employed in the past to achieve a professional look

The biggest tank you can fit(never under 75g) in the space allowed not the one you can afford at the moment. And a really good filter too.
Even if the tank is huge, try to allow 20-50g of water per discus
Usually mostly green tanks look better with discus
Believe it or not tank-mates are going to be just as if not more important than the discus
Pick the fish you want, but blue discus create the appearance of serenity while red based make the tank look more active wilds will evoke nature. If you can pick them of the same variety or at least that the correspond to each other. Regarding size 4" full grown are better. Avoid for the most part LFS unless they have proven to deliver in the past (doubtfull)1 and 2 will help you keep the tank in better shape with less work, while 3-5 will make it look better

For example I will only place in a 125 or higher 6-7 discus, 25-50 cardinals, 5 bleeding hearts, 15-35 Rummys, 7 corys and 2 female Bushy-nose plecos and a few rams. I favor the ones in red

Disclaimer: I prefer this method because it eliminates problems clients might have and it seems to deter the feeling some get of a tank too boring or too loud. By no means do I think that the way others do tanks this is only the way I prefer to do it. Of course some clients want a 75g tank with 8 discus 50 cardinals 50 rummys and......

[1977]

Anybody that tells you it's ok to do weekly wc on discus doesn't know what they're talking about. If they aren't having problems yet they have just been lucky and will kill discus eventually. Even 3 times a week for adults is pushing it IMO, think about how much water flows through their natural environment in a day!

[Dood Lee]

Anybody that tells you it's ok to do weekly wc on discus doesn't know what they're talking about. If they aren't having problems yet they have just been lucky and will kill discus eventually.

I guess I'm one of the "lucky" ones, seeing as how I only do weekly water changes. My discus have never been sick, and actively eat so they must be in good health. My water params are about as perfect as you can get for a fully planted tank.

[poconogal]

Anybody that tells you it's ok to do weekly wc on discus doesn't know what they're talking about. If they aren't having problems yet they have just been lucky and will kill discus eventually. Even 3 times a week for adults is pushing it IMO, think about how much water flows through their natural environment in a day!
I guess I'm another "lucky" one, as I've always done weekly changes, even 13 years ago when keeping Discus. And I've always had the dreaded gravel bed, :shocked: too. I've seen way too many posts, however, from people who are having health problems, i.e., bacterial, fungal, etc. with their Discus who do large, DAILY WCs. The only health issues I've had to deal with are on Discus who arrived at my home not quite up to par, and have had to spend time treating them.

[1977]

It would be irresponsible to tell people new to discus that 1 wc per week is acceptable. I started out with $1500 worth of discus, in the 2-3 inch range and was doing 2 or 3 wc per week.One by one I lost them and could never understand why. My ph and temp were stable, I wiped the tanks every week or 2, they were bb.I fed a good variety of food. My discus were skittish most of the time and developed different symptons that all led to hex and starvation. Then I met Angela and Andrew(Green Country Discus), once I saw how much work they did and how healthy their discus were, I changed my ways and have never had the same problems since. It was a combination of over feeding and too few of wc that caused my to lose $1000 worth of discus. If one wc per week is all your discus are worth to you than that's fine, I'm glad you aren't having problems, but please don't let people who are learning the hobby think this is ok. When I sell discus to a lfs and I go back to see the discus after one month that is all the proof I need to say there is a HUGE difference between 1 wc per week and 2 per day!

[pcsb23]

Apologies beforehand for what will be a very, very long response :)


Hey all,
I've been keeping fish for a few years, I'm just getting into discus now, and I'm running into typical problems before I even get the fish. For one, I'm going nuts with water quality issues.
Good, I am glad you are going nuts over water quality:D And no I am not being nasty, water quality is in my view the biggest single misunderstood principle or concept in keeping healthy discus. It is also just about the commonest cause of discus (any fish really) getting sick too. Doing something jsut because someone else down the road does it is not necessarily a good reason. To start you need to be clear in what your own objectives are. Once you know what they then you can decide which bits work for you.


Everyone likes to term things as to "water changes by x percent per week/day" but what I want to know is whether there's realy more to it than a nitrate requirement beyond "keeping it below 20ppm" as I've read in so many places.
Yes there is much more to it. All fish waste when it breaks down produces all sorts of by products, some end up as nitrates, after the nitrogen cycle. However other remain as they are or become slowly more toxic in higher concentrations, these are such things as phenols and certain dyes. Nitrates on their own are not so much of a threat, sure if the level got very high then they would become stressors. But a lot of the high tech planted tanks need to have nitrate added frequently, however this is inorganic nitrate and as such is there for use by the plants. Now we can easily test for nitrates, but we cannot easily test for phenols, unless you have access to expensiver colour spectrometry equipment! So when nitrates are derived pricipally from organic means, ie fish waste, then there is a loose correlation for the other nasties, often referred to as Dissolved Organic Compounds or DOC's. In reality it is these DOC's that do the most damage and is the purpose of doing the right level of water changes.


I guess I get tired of hearing from a bunch of sources on one side saying i can get away with 20% weekly changes and another talking about 50%+ daily changes even when not breeding.
A lot of people will repeat what they do and what they have been told to do given their circumstances. Some will do it because they absolutely know or believe it to be the right way, some have forgotten that they too were once new to the hobby.

There is a discus dealer in the UK who does only 5% water changes daily on his system, which is heavily stocked, and he uses filtered tap water on a drip system. He seems to have healthy vibrant and high quality discus, even winning prizes at the inaugural UK Discus Show last year. Another Dealer has 3 systems in his fish room , also heavily stocked, and does 50% water changes on each every 3rd day using RO water at a conductivity of around 180. He also has healthy vibrant discus and won prizes at the UK Discus show. Virtually 2 ends of the spectrum and completely different approaches. Both of the guys understand their water, their needs and their requirements, in particular for the type of discus they stock and where they source them from.


I'm going to be running a heavily planted tank as well, with UV sterilization, and I plan on leaving the substrate bare up front for feeding purposes.
I like heavily planted tanks, even for discus, I've got one, pics are on here somewhere. On that tank I do 1 small water change midweek, around 15 gallons and one larger one at weekends of around 30 - 40 gallons. The tank has around 70 gallons of water in it. It is stocked with 6 adult discus. My other display tank I only do 1 w/c a week of around 50% or 50 gallons. Its a 100 gallon tank, it has 9 adult discus in there, including my prized albinos and Ocean Greens, one of which will be entered for this years Discus Show. Pics of this tank are on here too somewhere.

Now my other tanks are all BB, the one currently with fry in gets a minimum of a 95% w/c once per day, around 20 gallons or so. The other have a lot of discus in and get daily wtaer changes of around 40 to 60 gallons, they hold some 130 gallons between them.

What I am trying to demonstarte is that I have assesed what I need to do in order to keep my fish healthy and to grow those that I am interested in.

My recommendation to you is to start with as good a quality adult or near adult discus as you can get, probably a minimum of 5 or 6 in as big a tank as you dare get. Lets assume you get a 75 Gallon tank, then start by doing say 3 water changes a week of around 25 gallons and assess the rate of nitrate increase etc and the ehalth of your fish. Obver time you will be able to determine if this is adequate or if you need to increase or decrease the amount and/or frequency. Ultimately this will require a degree of judgement, but unless you have an idea of what you are trying to achieve you will have nothing to judge against.

It would be foolish in my opinion to get juvvies and attempt to grow them out in any form of planted tank. Been there, done it will not do it again. Discus are meant to be enjoyed! I would aslo urge you to get them from either the sponsore here or one of the hobby breeders here, you will most likely get a better fish of higher quality and health for less money.

Sorry if this sound like a lecture, water quality is a subject close to my heart and if more people really understood the fundamental importance of it there would be less sick discus and more show specimens for everyone to enjoy.

[Dissident]

My first adventure with discus is a lot like what you are doing.
I have been keeping High-Tech Planted tanks for ~5yrs and decided to add discus to my 110gal HT Planted Tank.

I went against most reccomendation and got 6 juvies ~2-2.5" and grew them out in the 110gal. I have 4-5" substrate (Flourite) over the entire bottom. They were fed massive aqmmounts of FBW BH FBS and pellet foods. 75%WC 2X-3X/week (first 90days it was 50% everyday) with intermediate siphoning out uneaten food a couple times a day. No deaths or disease so far. Now that they are adults I do about 1-2 75% WC/Week

It is not an easy road and I am sure they would have done better growing out in a BBB tank. Out of the 6 only 3 turned out as quality fish IMO. The other 3 are 1runt, one football, and one that does not have good color (good size and shape though).

I hope you are expereienced with planted tanks because that alone is a whole different ball-game.

It was a learning expereince, but now for all grow-outs I am sticking with BBB and moveing the 'keepers' to the planted tank.

[Green Country Discus]

I had to double check that we were or were not in the in the beginners section! NO LOL!

Paul, great job with your lengthly explanantion...well done!!!!!!


1977, great advice for a beginner!! We keep water first and Discus second.

Others....:mad: ....please do not underestimate your skills and experience when directing newbies ( others) to follow your so called direction. Please post pics of recently raised fry to adults in your so called "lucky" environments so all can see. Or...NOT...your choice!! Having raised eggs to adults since 1985... I question your advise???

Keep smiling,

[Dissident]

Others....:mad: ....please do not underestimate your skills and experience when directing newbies ( others) to follow your so called direction. Please post pics of recently raised fry to adults in your so called "lucky" environments so all can see. Or...NOT...your choice!! Having raised eggs to adults since 1985... I question your advise???

Keep smiling,

If you call growing out discus in a HT planted tank a 'lucky environment' i suggest you spend another 21yrs learning the hobby. A lot of people have done it, as I stated in my previous post:


I hope you are expereienced with planted tanks because that alone is a whole different ball-game.

It was a learning expereince, but now for all grow-outs I am sticking with BBB and moveing the 'keepers' to the planted tank.

You should realize that if people are going to grow out discus in a planted tank, they are going to grow out discus in a planted tank. I find it better to give them advise on how to do it and be sucessfull with it. You should realize that most people here are fish keepers and just want some nice fish. They are not breeders, or raising fish to enter in a show.

And per your request:
Tank:
http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b35/cschema/110x/PB180790_sm.jpg
Juvi: 2nd day after getting him
http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b35/cschema/110x/IMG_3549__ul.jpg
Adult: about 8months later
http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b35/cschema/110x/UL_P1010874.jpg

All in a planted tank with substrate (the dreadd 'S' word that makes all the pro-keepers run and hide).

[Veteric]

Wow, I wasn't expecting this many replies in 24 hours :D . I guess I should have mentioned that I've allready bought all my equipment. The set up that i'll be running is: 125 gal. with compressed co2, UV sterilizer (rated for 400gph, running off a 300gph canister) 2 200 watt heaters and a 40 watt undergrav. I'll be monitoring my PH electronicaly to keep it stable, the rest is all liquid test kits.

For lighting, 390 watts compact fluorescant- i'm letting the plants grow in first so the discus have shade if need be. I've allready got my plants chosen out and they're all quite comfortable surviving at around 28-29c (mid 80's).

As for tank mates, I'm going to get the discus in first, then when they're comfy i'm going to order in a couple of L-46 zebras. Upon ordering the plecos, i will sit in a corner, rock back and forth, and wonder when i'll be able to pay for food next :p .

My realistic plans for water changes will be 50-60% weekly, simply because of hardness limmitations and the quantity of RO water that I can pump out of my system in a day. I can manage 9 gallons per day out of the system, with 3 gallons of tap water before I break 15gh. All that and I usualy go out on the weekend or just end up plain lazy one day out of the week, so about 70-75 gal. is my max. I plan on getting 7 discus that I'll have to drive about 4 hours for, since I can't say I trust any LFS around here with anything like this.

Thankyou for all the help so far everyone :) It's much appreciated. If anyone knows how i can get around my water quantity problem, or how to make water changes easier, I would love any more advice that can be thrown at me. Even a URL would help.

PS. I have some experience with plants, however it's not extensive- mostly easy to grow stuf. That being said, I've got little problems catching on, and I'll be keeping my plants growing up a while before the discus come in. All the same, I want to start studying discus every day for anywhere between 2-4 months before putting them in.

[Dissident]

Skip the UG heater it is more trouble than it is worth. Plants will root into it and it will get dammaged quickly. Return it and get a Ph Controller for the CO2 system.

If you can only do 50-60% WC/Week I HIGHLY reccomend you get adult discus from a good source. If you could get to 2 WC/week your (adult) discus will be a lot happier. Is your water that hard that you need to use RO water? There is no benifit to RO for the plants at all. For a planted tank I would stick to aged tap.

[Green Country Discus]

Not to diss...Diss but compare one raised in a bb (7 month and Al got the good ones from this batch!) with daily WC's verses the one you posted. 21 years in the hobby has given me at least this much of an eye. Can you spell BIG EYE??? Great looking planted tank Diss.

[Veteric]

Skip the UG heater it is more trouble than it is worth. Plants will root into it and it will get dammaged quickly. Return it and get a Ph Controller for the CO2 system.

I've got a plastic grate planned to go above the ugh, could that possibly get rid of the problem? I originaly intended it to prevent the roots from wraping around the heater and pulling it up every time i aquascape. As for a Ph controller, how much will it cost and where should I order from?

And yes, the water is that hard- i live in a sediment valley, last i remmember testing, it sits between 60-80gh.

[Dissident]

I've got a plastic grate planned to go above the ugh, could that possibly get rid of the problem? I originaly intended it to prevent the roots from wraping around the heater and pulling it up every time i aquascape. As for a Ph controller, how much will it cost and where should I order from?

And yes, the water is that hard- i live in a sediment valley, last i remmember testing, it sits between 60-80gh.

The grate will cause more problems as plants root into that as well. -skip the UG Heater, they have little-no benifit.
Ph copntrollers ~80USD get a milwaukee one on ebay or somewhere.

[Dissident]

Not to diss...Diss but compare one raised in a bb (7 month and Al got the good ones from this batch!) with daily WC's verses the one you posted. 21 years in the hobby has given me at least this much of an eye. Can you spell BIG EYE??? Great looking planted tank Diss.

Again most people are not growing show-fish. They just want some nice fish for their tank. It is not my full-time job to do 50% WC/day on a dozen tanks. I only do 2 75% WC on 2 tanks a day and 1-2 50% WC/Week on show-tanks (its a Part-time job LOL).
Most people don't have the resources to have a couple extra BB grow-out tanks at their disposal (most are lucky if they even have a 20gal QT), or want to wait 6-9 months to get a hand full of fish in their tank.

Most people here are coming from the hobbiest end not the breeder/show end. We have to give good advice and keep that in mind.

[poconogal]

It would be irresponsible to tell people new to discus that 1 wc per week is acceptable. I started out with $1500 worth of discus, in the 2-3 inch range and was doing 2 or 3 wc per week.One by one I lost them and could never understand why. My ph and temp were stable, I wiped the tanks every week or 2, they were bb.I fed a good variety of food. My discus were skittish most of the time and developed different symptons that all led to hex and starvation. Then I met Angela and Andrew(Green Country Discus), once I saw how much work they did and how healthy their discus were, I changed my ways and have never had the same problems since. It was a combination of over feeding and too few of wc that caused my to lose $1000 worth of discus. If one wc per week is all your discus are worth to you than that's fine, I'm glad you aren't having problems, but please don't let people who are learning the hobby think this is ok. When I sell discus to a lfs and I go back to see the discus after one month that is all the proof I need to say there is a HUGE difference between 1 wc per week and 2 per day!
Well, again I guess I'm lucky with my 1X per week changes. Of course, I don't overfeed, I am very careful with that. That is definitely something that would affect your water quality. The other thing that affects water quality is OVERSTOCKING. I don't think it is irresponsible to tell someone that they can do once a week changes, provided they do not do what you did as a newbie to Discus, OVERFEED, and provided they also do not overcrowd their tank. If you overfeed or overstock, you definitely need to do LOTS of WCs. In fact, if you overfeed any fish tank, not just a Discus tank, your water quality will degrade and you ultimately will have sick and dying fish. There are lots of variables with fishkeeping and what works for me will not necessarily work for you and vice versa. If a tank is not overstocked and the Discus are not overfed, then one CAN do a 50% weekly WC and have healthy Discus. That is what I do and what I have always done, even when new to Discus, 13 years ago, and with a gravel substrate, too.

[Veteric]

The hobbiest end is exactly where I'm coming from. Which isn't to say that I don't want to keep my fish in good conditions, but I do have a life outside of aquaria. What I'm looking for is a place where I'm keeping my fish happy and healthy, without using flash chormatography to analyze the waste they leave behind. I'de idealy like a good bit of the knowledge as to how to keep them at show-level quality, however I'de also like to know what the minimum and what the normal acceptable ranges are. I'm asking here mainly because my normal fish forum has only a handfull of people experienced with discus, and the books I've read all seem to go for minimal acceptible levels.

[Dissident]

The hobbiest end is exactly where I'm coming from. Which isn't to say that I don't want to keep my fish in good conditions, but I do have a life outside of aquaria. What I'm looking for is a place where I'm keeping my fish happy and healthy, without using flash chormatography to analyze the waste they leave behind. I'de idealy like a good bit of the knowledge as to how to keep them at show-level quality, however I'de also like to know what the minimum and what the normal acceptable ranges are. I'm asking here mainly because my normal fish forum has only a handfull of people experienced with discus, and the books I've read all seem to go for minimal acceptible levels.

In your case I hope you are starting with nice adults. If at all possible to find a way to do 2 50% WC/week. Since they are not adults you do not need to feed them a lot. Get them accepting (quality) pellet foods, feed them 3 times a day.

Have you set up a fert routiene yet for your tank? I found no issues with using the Barr EI method, it is a lot easier now with only 2x50% WC/Week. I have also found CO2 ~25ppm is about where my discus like it. 30-35ppm they tend to be a little more stressed.

IME with adults in a HT Planted tank minimum acceptable WC would be 1 50-75% week and adding 1/2 ferts mid-week. Although I really would do more WC if possible. The best would be 2 x 50-75% a week and dosing ferts to proper level after each WC, if you miss 1 WC a week here and there it is not the end of the world, but 2 would be better.

If you are growing out juvies and feeding 6-8 times a day in a HT Planted tank minimum WC would be every-other-day 50%WC. The best that is 'realistic' would be 2 50% WC a day but it seems you can never do enough WCs a day to be the 'best'.

[Veteric]

Have you set up a fert routiene yet for your tank? I found no issues with using the Barr EI method, it is a lot easier now with only 2x50% WC/Week. I have also found CO2 ~25ppm is about where my discus like it. 30-35ppm they tend to be a little more stressed.

I haven't worked out ferts yet, but I need to- I'm heading to the coast in a couple weeks to pick up the plants for my tank and I've got some not so easy to grow choices mixed in. What do you mean by 25ppm on CO2 though? I've got basicaly no experience with CO2 and the most I've heard of is counting bubbles per minute and using ph tests.

[Dissident]

I haven't worked out ferts yet, but I need to- I'm heading to the coast in a couple weeks to pick up the plants for my tank and I've got some not so easy to grow choices mixed in. What do you mean by 25ppm on CO2 though? I've got basicaly no experience with CO2 and the most I've heard of is counting bubbles per minute and using ph tests.

http://www.rexgrigg.com/
This will cover all the basics for a planted tank.


BTW HT planted tanks are harder than discus tanks. When you combine the two you are going to have quite the work ahead of you.

If you can set up the 125 HT planted and maybe get a 55gal and grow out some discus (Bare-Bottom) that will give you a good amount of experience in both and in 6-12months you can combine the two.

[Veteric]

I figured as much, though it doesn't bother me. I'm lacking a hobby right now- I have work and sleep, with some chatting in between. The fish I have right now are far too easy to keep. I may just go planted for a while, with the ammount i just paid for a set-up, I'm not eager to put out the cost of yet another tank, plus all the requirements juvies are going to bring.

[Dissident]

Best thing you can do start brushing up on planted tanks here are some of my collected links:
http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua/art_plant_nutrient.htm
http://www.aquatic-gardeners.org/

For the Basics:
http://www.rexgrigg.com/

Barr EI Dosing:
http://www.barrreport.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1

Fertilator: (for calcualting how much ferts to add)
http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/fertilator.php?

Place to get ferts:
http://www.gregwatson.com/

Forums:
http://plantedtank.net

You will want to get an electronic scale. I got one on ebay for $16US and it works great for ferts.

[Kindredspirit]

If you call growing out discus in a HT planted tank a 'lucky environment' i suggest you spend another 21yrs learning the hobby. A lot of people have done it

Chris that was rude not to mention uncalled for ~ you are cold and boring but this was a new one for you ~ Andrew did not deserve that IMO ~



If you are growing out juvies and feeding 6-8 times a day in a HT Planted tank minimum WC would be every-other-day 50%WC.

and this one ~ I can not believe you said this ~ every other day....???


I question the wisdom of your advice on this one as well Chris ~ granted your tanks are planted and beautiful but most are not YOU ~ and as 1977 stated we are not here to be irresponsible ~ or rude ~


Veteric ~ I am sure that Chris has given you some awesome advice here with re to plants ~ some of which I wont even pretend to understand ~ but what I do understand is growing out juvies is BEST in a BBB tank ~ with daily wc...DAILY ~

I have always done that with no problem ( and I was not just lucky ) never have my fish been ill save once due to a rather nasty bug I brought home from a lfs ~ I am growing out two now in BBB ~ daily wc ~

I would hate to see you posting in the Sick Section in a year ~


Good luck Veteric and post some pics when you can!!


Marie ~ http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/16/16_4_10.gif

[Timbo]

If you are growing out juvies and feeding 6-8 times a day in a HT Planted tank minimum WC would be every-other-day 50%WC. The best that is 'realistic' would be 2 50% WC a day but it seems you can never do enough WCs a day to be the 'best'.




and this one ~ I can not believe you said this ~ every other day....???
I question the wisdom of your advice on this one as well Chris ~

Marie, why do you question the wisdom of that advice? seems entirely reasonable to me

[Kindredspirit]

Marie, why do you question the wisdom of that advice? seems entirely reasonable to me


You are correct Tim ~ I did not see "minimum".......I apologize Chris:o


Marie ~ http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/29/29_2_15.gif

[pcsb23]

BTW HT planted tanks are harder than discus tanks. When you combine the two you are going to have quite the work ahead of you.
I think this should be nominated for the understatement of the year!:bandana:

Diss is dead right here.

The purpose of my previous lengthy response was to keep things in perspective. After many years now of keeping all types of tanks from guppies through reef systems, and some 10 or more years now with discus my advice for people new to keeping discus, and it doesn't matter how many years in aquaria they have, is juvvies BB, adults any tank that pleases you.

Now if you wanted to breed them........;)

[AADiscus]

Here is my take on this. This is what I would recommend to ANY body just getting into the hobby. Start out with a BB tank. A nice group of juvies around 3". Grow them out for about 3-6 months then gradually start adding items into the tank for a planted. If you are new in the hobby and aren't familiar with discus then you are in for a big change from growing other fish. They are not the same. Trying to make everything work, plants, fish, water parameters, etc. for someone just getting in the hobby I think is too much on there plate. IMHO


Again most people are not growing show-fish. They just want some nice fish for their tank. It is not my full-time job

I agree people are not trying to grow show quality discus. They want some nice ones in there tank to enjoy. That is why it is a HOBBY! We do not do this as a full time job. We want everyone else in the hobby that gets fish from us to have the highest quality we can provide.

This is why we have Simply Discus! :) For all the knowledge everyone has here to give different opinions and there take on how they do things with there tanks and fish. Then you can go back and combine some info and see what will work for yourself.

[Tony_S]

Angela, Andrew, Paul, 77 and Marie...good sound advise!

Tony:thumbsup:

[1977]

I'll give one more absolutely vital piece of info to you Veteric. If you go and buy 2 or 3 inch discus and put them in this planted tank and do anything other than wc daily or every other day you will have what most people with planted tanks have, stunted and big eyed discus-I GUARANTEE IT! You must purchase adults(6 or so inches) to be able to do this 1 or 2 wc per week deal. I don't know if you've priced adults but your talking $100 or more each for decent discus. I can't stress enough how much better off you would be to buy 5 or 6 juvs and grow them out in a bb 55.Much cheaper and will help you to learn the needs of discus. Set your planted tank up with some cardinals, rams and cories for now and when the discus are to 6 inches or so throw them in.Good luck no matter what you do,this hobby is like anything else in that you can ask a question and 5 people will give you 6 different answers.

[mickeyG]

This has become a rather interesting and spirited discussion - don't ya think?

Just a newbies hobbiests thoughts here - take them as just that.

I started 15 months ago and set up my first tank - a high tech planted tank - pressurized co2 - reactor- 3wpg cf - eco complete - and followed as best as I could all the advice - trying without EI and then with EI. Did ok, plants grew well for the most part, but always had one algae problem or another, I know ----- some of it due to new tank and some due to overfeeding and inexperience.

At 8 months I gave up. Took out plants and eco - got my water straight and ran 1.5wpg (one 65w bulb instead of both 65w bulbs) about 6 hours a day so no more algae!!! Bought 4 young adult Stendekar discus at about $125 each (5" or so). Kept 1/2 inch eco on the bottom because I didn't want a bb.

Everybody seems happy. They all ate anything from day one, are friendly, feed out of my hand, and lay eggs every couple of weeks. I do 25% wc twice a week with aged water. After 3 months I wanted to add back plants.

I did that 2 weeks ago. Just 4 large crinum bulbs, and 2 crypts.

SO FAR - (grimmacing, crossing fingers, and looking towards the sky) the plants are beautiful, growing faster than I thought they would in low tech low light, and the discus, cards, and rummies, love them (I think)?

Now I am only in my 4th month with these discus, but so far so good. I can't advise you on how successful any particular method will be for you, but this has worked for me.

Michael

[AADiscus]

Michael I agree with you, that is why I would recommend get the discus and raising them in a bb tank and then gradually adding in the plants, etc.

Let me ask this question to everyone. Do you not enjoy buying/raising a young discus and growing them out? Watching them change colors, there patterns show up change, etc. I love it! It is what makes it so exciting because not every fish is the same.

[Dissident]

Michael I agree with you, that is why I would recommend get the discus and raising them in a bb tank and then gradually adding in the plants, etc.

Let me ask this question to everyone. Do you not enjoy buying/raising a young discus and growing them out? Watching them change colors, there patterns show up change, etc. I love it! It is what makes it so exciting because not every fish is the same.

I think you are going to get a big YES to that Q.
Why do you think most of the members here have several tanks now :D I love growing them out. It's part of the hobby IMO

Not everyone has the resources to do it, sadly :(
It's costly when you consider the equipment, the fish and the food. Then you have to guess how much money you lose when you cull the ones you don't want.

[Veteric]

I'm thinking on buying adults. I'm not in the mood to watch juvies grow out in, lets face it, an ugly tank. I'm also not about to do 50% water changes every day, i don't have the resources to provide that much good water. The plants i can take my time on, if it's that difficult to keep a planted tank, I'll go plant-only until i figure out what i'm doing there. I could concievably manage 20% changes 5 days a week, depends how hard I can push my RO system, which i'm going to hook up as soon as i get over the torn muscle in my back.

Now here's a question that's bothered me- does anyone have a link for rigging up some sort of easier water changing method? Would bypass valves off the cannister filter work? As is i'm looking at just carting water from the RO system over to the tank and filling manualy.

[Dissident]

How far away is the water storage from the tank? A pump and a hose could be used. I use a long hose that has a barb connector that syphons my tanks into the garden so I just move the one hose and attach it and let it drain. Then take another hose and fill the tank. coil it all back up in the garrage when I am done.

[Kenny's Discus]

Michael I agree with you, that is why I would recommend get the discus and raising them in a bb tank and then gradually adding in the plants, etc.

Let me ask this question to everyone. Do you not enjoy buying/raising a young discus and growing them out? Watching them change colors, there patterns show up change, etc. I love it! It is what makes it so exciting because not every fish is the same.

Yes, yes and YES. You said it all there Angela. Love seeing their shape, patterns, color developed as they grow. I agree with you 100%!

Kenny

[pcsb23]

I'm thinking on buying adults. Excellent for what you are doing.


I'm not in the mood to watch juvies grow out in, lets face it, an ugly tank. Understood, but give it time :)


The plants i can take my time on, if it's that difficult to keep a planted tank, I'll go plant-only until i figure out what i'm doing there.Very wise, not meant sarcastically either, believe me keeping planted tanks well is a challenge.


I could concievably manage 20% changes 5 days a week, depends how hard I can push my RO system, which i'm going to hook up as soon as i get over the torn muscle in my back. Ouch have had a torn back muscle, damned painful. You may find that 3 x 50% changes work better, depends on your storage capabilty.


Now here's a question that's bothered me- does anyone have a link for rigging up some sort of easier water changing method? Would bypass valves off the cannister filter work? As is i'm looking at just carting water from the RO system over to the tank and filling manualy.
Have a browse through teh DIY section, lots of stuff in there.

Good luck,

[Dissident]

The plants i can take my time on, if it's that difficult to keep a planted tank, I'll go plant-only until i figure out what i'm doing there.

Once you get the hang of it they are no problem. If you are constantly trying new plants then there is more work. For my planted show tank I like to keep it very uniform, only a couple species 5-6 and all green, no red plants. I let the discus/congos/rummynose add the splashes of color. Tetras can take a lot of abuse in a planted tank, so stat with those, fish are a good indicator on the over-all helath of the aquarium.

Look at some of the AGA contest entries if you want some ideas. There are 1000's od planted tanks to look at over the past 5yrs that were entered in the contest.

Most important have fun, enjoy, and learn. It can get frustrating at times but what fun is a hobby if there are no challanges in it :D

[mickeyG]

I do my water changes in 35 or 40 min. I also do my 6 chemical tests as the water is being pumped back into the tank.

I use a python to drain the tank into my kitchen sink. I then use an 18 gal trash can stashed near the tank by the washing machine for refills. It has a pump with a 1/2" hose attached, small corner filter, heater, and thermometer in it. I take the 1/2" hose from the pump, put it in the tank (about 4 feet), unplug the heater and filter, and plug in the pump. This is when I do the water tests. After the tank is filled, I move the python into the trash can, fill it with cold tap water, add prime and a little baking soda if need be, and I am done.

No lifting, which is an absolute for me.

I do understand the value in raising discus from wrigglers or juvies, and the enjoyment and satisfaction that can be had, (done it with yellow labs myself) but not everyone (as AADiscus pointed out), can get it "all hooked up" or even wants to.

Michael

[AADiscus]

Here's the thing. You don't have to have alot of tanks or a fancy set-up to have discus. I see where you want adults and that would be best since your tank is planted. IMO

Breeding discus is a whole different ball game. But, there is alot out there that start out with 1 tank and eventually get a few more. There fish reach maturity and spawn. This is fascinating! They buy a small breeding tank. Next thing you know you are breeding and adding more tanks. Then you are needing add'l equipment.

You could start out with the bucket thing but I think that will get old fast. Take Pauls advice
Have a browse through the DIY section, lots of stuff in there. There is some really neat set-ups for wc's, storage tubs, etc.

[sleonard]

I'm thinking on buying adults. I'm not in the mood to watch juvies grow out in, lets face it, an ugly tank. ...

Hey, are you calling my tanks ugly? :)

Just kidding but I also thought a bare tank was not attractive before I found this place. Now, after a year with nothing but bare bottom tanks I've grown to appreciate their special beauty. Part of that is being able to see exactly how clean the tank is and part of it is the ease of cleaning. When you clean several tanks every night your aesthetic begins to change toward ease of maintenance.

Scott

[mickeyG]

Really, I am not hijaking this thread! Just trying to complete the post that I screwed up above.

My main point above was that I only do 2 wc per week, which is a total maintenance of 1 hour to 1 hour and 15 min per week. Which is not much compared to what I thought a planted discus would take.


http://www.morningglorystudio.com/50g/forums/discusplants.jpg

Michael