View Full Version : Would you buy or grow-out a normal discus with bent/crooked stress bar?Or breed them?
Many people consider discus with crooked stress bars as inferior fish (let assume their backbone is normal, NOT shorten). Some will not buy them, grow them out or even breed them. Why?
Because.......
a. They don't look nice
b. It's a cull
c. Have bad genes/genetic and should not breed them
d. Will not become a big fish as others later.
e. whatever........bad fish!
Why do you think these fish are inferior? Many beginners seem to think they are low quality discus nowaday. If not, also give your opinions. I will have my opinions with pictures later. Let here yours!
April
08-21-2006, 02:36 PM
well..i would expect if i bought fish from a seller..to send me ones with good bars. of course some can sneak through. the fish will grow out fine..its not a tragedy..perhaps genetic..someone with more experience in genetics can advise on that..i would think though that if you bred them...youd get lots of messy barred babies. and not sure they would go over in a discus show.
but....lets face it..alot of the wilds have messed up stressbars. nature hasnt culled them..
but for aesthetic reasons..i would prefer to have straight bars.
good post. lets hear from others.
Carol_Roberts
08-21-2006, 02:37 PM
Crooked and missing stress bars are not an indicator of health or potential growth. If the spine is not compresses, then it is merely cosmetic. Straight stress bars are more attractive.
kaceyo
08-21-2006, 02:53 PM
Streight or crooked stress bars have nothing to do with the conformation or health of the fish. I don't cull an otherwise nice fish due to crooked bars but I wouldn't breed one either. I also wouldn't sell one to someone who's looking for future breeders. But, as already stated, it's purely asthetic so I see nothing wrong with selling a beautiful discus with crooked stress bars to those who don't care about it one way or the other.
Kacey
I really don't care, it makes no difference to me and haven't even considered that for breeding choices, besides when they're not showing the bars at all is when they look best!
Breadhead
08-21-2006, 04:25 PM
On my first batch of fry (hatched out late Nov '05) I saw alot of bad bars. Turns out the female had some not quite straight ones I never noticed.
But seriously.. would you cull this due to a bar deformation??? I sure wouldn't...
http://img439.imageshack.us/img439/7534/crookedbarwa2.jpg
Tony_S
08-21-2006, 04:47 PM
But seriously.. would you cull this due to a bar deformation???
Yes.
Tony
Kindredspirit
08-21-2006, 04:59 PM
Tony you would? Can you say why?
I had never seen a discus with crooked stress bars before the one posted on DU ~ The person that critiqued that fish had a very good eye as I wld never had noticed it nor did not even know that such a thing existed! Once pointed out it became obvious tho ~
How common is it I wonder ~ What if you thought you had a "grade A" fish and some time later ~ a lot later the stress bars popped out and one was crooked? Wonder how people would feel about that ....
I guess to be safe I suppose one wld need to cull ......if you did in fact know ~
Personally it would not bother me at all:)
Marie ~ http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/29/29_2_15.gif
Kindredspirit
08-21-2006, 05:01 PM
I don't cull an otherwise nice fish due to crooked bars but I wouldn't breed one either. Kacey
Kacey why wouldnt you breed one? For cosmetic reasons only? What causes crooked stress bars?
Great Topic!:)
Marie ~ http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/29/29_2_15.gif
pcsb23
08-21-2006, 05:03 PM
I agree with Tony on this, I would cull. Reasons are simple, in my own way I am trying to maintain or improve the standards. Bent stress bars are a fault. I would not cull an adult or sub adult though if it was otherwise healthy, but I would not buy one or breed from it either.
IceDiscus
08-21-2006, 05:04 PM
It looks good to me, as a mater of fact I think it gives the fish character. :D
kaceyo
08-21-2006, 05:19 PM
Marie,
I wouldn't breed it for the same reasons already given. It is a flaw and the purpose of breeding discus should always be to improve the strain. In any given spawn there are generaly enough discus with nice streight bars to pick breeders from so there is no reason to look outside that goup.
Kacey
Kindredspirit
08-21-2006, 05:27 PM
I can understand that totally ~ but Kacey you wld cull this on the first cull or second or whenever.....you can actually SEE the bars on a discus that young?
I suppose sooner or later you will see that the bars are crooked.....I get it ~ and I agree with keeping the standards high....I guess I didnt realize I felt that way til now:o
I have seen some of 1997 fish and they are beautiful ~ I cld not imagine culling that but somewhere we have to take responsibility and pass on the best we can ~ while they are young ~
Never thought about this ~ Thanks Kacey!!
Marie ~ http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/29/29_2_15.gif
Marie,
You can see the stress bars on discus when they are about dime/nickle size, especially during feeding times when they all get excited.
Breadhead,
That fish has a very nice color and checkerboard patterns.
All,
Keep your answers and opinions coming. I will show what I know and what I have seen with pictures about this topic later. Thank you to those who have put in theirs thoughts/opinions.
Squiggy
08-21-2006, 05:55 PM
I would take exception to April's statement that we see lots of wilds with crooked stress bars. That fault is quite rare in wilds. It reared its ugly head from bad breeding and eventually led to peppering. To me it is a major fault and renders the fish useless for breeding or show purposes.
Just my strong opinions on the subject....
Joe
edit: this keyboard can't speel right...:crazy:
Tony_S
08-21-2006, 05:55 PM
As Paul said, I feel I'm responsible for upholding, maintaining and even improving the characteristics of the discus I choose to breed and release to the general public. Crooked bars are a defect and should be culled.
What if you thought you had a "grade A" fish and some time later ~ a lot later the stress bars popped out and one was crooked? Wonder how people would feel about that ....
Barred discus as a rule show their bars predominantly when they're young. The ones with crooked bars are pretty easy to spot at a very young age.
If someone were to sell a discus with crooked bar(s) as a grade 'A' discus...
A) They don't know how to grade discus properly.
B) They imported/received the discus and changed the grade.
C) They imported/received the discus and DIDN'T change the grade, and should have.
Tony
Kindredspirit
08-21-2006, 07:01 PM
If someone were to sell a discus with crooked bar(s) as a grade 'A' discus...
A) They don't know how to grade discus properly.
B) They imported/received the discus and changed the grade.
C) They imported/received the discus and DIDN'T change the grade, and should have.
Tony
So if the breeder sold it...he had to know they were crooked...? Thanks Tony for very important info here!
( better? :o )
Marie ~ http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/29/29_4_11.gif
Kindredspirit
08-21-2006, 07:06 PM
Marie,
You can see the stress bars on discus when they are about dime/nickle size, especially during feeding times when they all get excited.
Really? Good to know ~ Got any pictures on that? This topic is very interesting to me ~ Something I never knew about ~
Keep your answers and opinions coming. I will show what I know and what I have seen with pictures about this topic later. Thank you to those who have put in theirs thoughts/opinions.
Well Inquiring Minds Wanna Know! Soon:) lol! Did you ever say YOUR opinion....I can not scroll back....or I will lose....
Thank You For a Great Topic!
Marie ~ http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/29/29_2_15.gif
Tony_S
08-22-2006, 06:44 AM
That fault is quite rare in wilds. It reared its ugly head from bad breeding and eventually led to peppering.
Squigmund....
How is it you feel crooked bars and poor breeding led to peppering? Ive never heard any such thing before...
Tony
PS. I'm suprised how 'quiet' this thread is...This subject normally gets kind of ugly...
pcsb23
08-22-2006, 09:04 AM
PS. I'm suprised how 'quiet' this thread is...This subject normally gets kind of ugly...
The only thing thast ugly is crooked stress bars ;)
btw I'm glad its reasonably quiet!
kaceyo
08-22-2006, 09:19 AM
I agree Paul. When things "get ugly" it usually means there are alot of people talking while no one is listening. At least not in a constructive sense.
Kacey
Breadhead
08-22-2006, 09:52 AM
Crooked bars or not, I still think the fish I posted is a nice checkerboard red/royal blue, granted not AAA quality, but better than 90% of whats out there.. IMHO And besides, last Nov he was the size of a pinhead in my community tank. :D
Kindredspirit
08-22-2006, 09:58 AM
PS. I'm suprised how 'quiet' this thread is...This subject normally gets kind of ugly...
http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/23/23_28_120.gif
Squiggy
08-22-2006, 11:20 AM
Squigmund....
How is it you feel crooked bars and poor breeding led to peppering? Ive never heard any such thing before...
Tony
Tony...
As I said, its just my strong opinion on the subject...kind of a logical conclusion from my observations of the progression of discus from 9 bar wilds> 9 bar hybrids> 9+ bar hybrids of hybrids> crooked barred hybrids of 9bar/9+ bar hybrids.....eventually leading to the ugliest of all discus, the pumkinseed (circa 1990). It looked more like a piece of burnt toast than it did a discus...I believe the peppering to be a confused dispersion of what would have been the stress bars.
Again...just my opinion....:crazy:
OK, now it's my turn to put in some input. First, to make things clear upfront, all pictures were taken by me at different times, using more than one cameras with/without flash, so quality of pictures are more or less different. All information I share here on this board are from my own experience/observations raising these discus.
Let look at the fish below. It was about 5in at the time the picture was taken. This fish was raised from wriggler. It might not pass the "culling process" in someone's tank at the early age.
Same fish, when the crooked bars are not that visible
Same fish from the other side.
Question of the day!
Will you breed this fish if it has the color and the patterns that you are looking for in a breeder fish? Let say if this fish is a " Golden Albino LSS, Spot Eruption.....or whatever the fancy name that you can come up with"?
Marie,
Here is a picture of babies that you are asking for. Look carefully, you can see their stress bars
The discus with babies is a different fish from the above discus with crooked bars.
Squiggy
08-22-2006, 01:27 PM
aqua...You've chosen a fish with a minor flaw. A small void in one bar is a whole lot different than the tankful I've got. Mine have varying counts forming Xs, Ks, zs, and I think a few Js and Gs....lol...:D
Squiggy, we can gather these fish to play "All-in Texas Hold-em Poker"
Squiggy
08-22-2006, 01:39 PM
I'm thinking I'm going to breed them and sell them as wild caught SUPER zebra discus from Africa....yeah....thats the ticket! :crazy:
When I choose young discus (quarter size) the straight bars look better to me than the crooked or irregular ones. I avoid those, just a preference I guess.
--kap
aquaticplantman
08-22-2006, 02:18 PM
Aqua,
The fish you posted looks great. If I owned that fish and it ended up pairing with another to breed, I would happily let it go at it and see what kind of fry came out. However, if I were looking at buying some fish from a professional breeder, I would want that breeder to hold their breeding pairs to higher standards. You mentioned using a fish with imperfect bars if it had some other high quality characteristics. Well, it's the job of a professional breeder to find the fish that have all high quality characteristics and no "imperfections".
Has it been shown that breeding crooked bar fish will produce a larger number of crooked bar offspring?
-- Matt H.
dandestroy
08-22-2006, 04:20 PM
A good can of sprain paint could solve this issue in no time ;)
Here is a batch of babies from that "crooked bars" fish back then. Very small percentage of offsprings had crooked bars. Not much of a difference in percentage in comparison to a normal pair with straight bars. Nine-bars or 13-bars parents (snakeskin related) seem to throw higher percentage of crooked bars fries even the parents have straight bars. These information are based on my own experiment with my fish and from what I had observed from others.
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