96 degrees with metronidazole?

[Mta472]

One of my old discus books recommends raising the temperature of the tank from current 84 degrees to 96 degrees when treating with metronidazole. It claims this temp will kill the hexamita present. Is this still adviseable? If so, for how long? Also will treatment with tetracycline help? Thanks...Mike

[Graham]

Hex is an internal protozoa and the Metro will work on that......Tetracycline is an antibiotic and will have no affect on the Hex.

Just checking through some disease books and I can't find any reference to heat being used in conjunction with meds for Hex. Also with the temp that high the O2 levels would be very low in the water....so IMO I wouldn't raise the temps.

[Willie]

Heat and salt are the first things you should try before resorting to medication.

1. Salt - 1 tablespoon/gal, this is a huge amount of salt but the fish will immediately look better.
2. Heat - You need good heaters, I use titaniums, and an accurate thermometer. You also need to have good aeration, like a vigorous sponge filter or an airstone. I've gone up to 96F with no problems for 2 - 3 days.

Note that when you change water, the salinity should be maintained. When the treatment is done, reduce the salinity level no more than 50% at a time.

Willie

[jeep]

I agree with Willie. I have had the same positive results with just high heat and salt as I have with using metro. I've treated for up to 7-10 days with this method for hex as well as new arrivals that won't eat. 7-10 days AFTER treatment is when you notice a huge improvement

Keep a close eye out though. If the fish has been sick for awhile or is weak, the high heat can be deadly. Make sure there is plenty of air!!!

[Timbo]

standard treatment for hex using metro is raise temp to 92 or so

*edit* i've never gone as high as 96 but could work as well but you may have some oxygen depletion probs at that much higher a temp. high temp=less avail oxygen

[Kindredspirit]

I have learned a lot here in just these few posts! Brian I never knew one cld obtain the same results for treating Hex with salt as opposed to Metro ~ think of the meds you cld save not to mention has to be easier on the fish~

And~

....that high heat depletes more oxygen....I knew that some meds do ....but now I guess that it was due to kicking up the heat...?

Thanks Guys ~ a lot ~

Marie ~ http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/29/29_5_2.gif

[Graham]

''.....that high heat depletes more oxygen....I knew that some meds do ....but now I guess that it was due to kicking up the heat...?.....''

Marie chems like PP and Formalin are both oxidizers and therefore use O2 in doing thier job. Salted water and saltwater also do not hold as much O2. So when using it and high temps O2 levels should be monitored.

Also when using salt at that level, 0.3%, it should be increased over a 24 hour period and not all at once

Here's a chart for DO

[jeep]

I'm not suggesting anyone not use metro, it's just my own opinion, based upon what I've read and what I've observed, that heat is just as effective, if not more, as Metro for treating hex. It's also wide spread opinion that metro is not effective in temps lower than 93...

Maybe I shouldn't have said anything at all because like I said earlier, that high heat can kill a fish that is already compromised.

The times I have done this is when I feel I have no other option. And like others have said, extra, extra o2 must be added...

[Graham]

Interesting that you mention temps for using Metronidazole. It's a human antibiotic, good for a few parasites and anaerobic bacteria, Women use it all the time as Flagyl.....I'm wondering if the temp thing doesn't come from the idea of human body temps.

In Dr Erik Johnsons Book he doesn't mention that it should be used at higher temps.................


The odds are the high temps are outside the range that Hex survives at and that kills it. The high salt helps with osmoregulation allowing the fish to be lessed stressed and be able to get it's immune system back up to 100%. High salt levels do nothing internally to kill parasites


G

[Ed13]

Women use it all the time as Flagyl.....


G

Funny that you mention it, as I've used it strait from the pharmacy when I had some trouble getting it from more conventional sources.

You should have seen the look I got when I asked the lady for Flagyl:o
Next time I had to ask a female friend to get it for me as I was to embarrassed to do it myself. Once they knew that it was for some fish The LOOK got weirder, but now I don't even care!!

[Carol_Roberts]

If you are going to raise temp I would dose with metro too. Remember do daily water changes with 90+ degree water each day before a dose and keep temp up for a week after tx ends, then slowly lower a degree or two.

First - is fish dark, not eating in back of tank, excreting clear or white strings of mucus? If no, maybe doesn't need heat/metro . . .

[ShinShin]

Metro is used to kill certain flagellates in humans, as well as some anaerobic bacteria as mentioned. That is where the higher temp recomendation comes from. Metro (Flagyl) works better at higher temps. Men need not be embarrassed to purchase Flagyl. One creature it is used to kill in humans (both men and women) is giardia, picked up drinking untreated ground water.

I do not subscribe to the line of thinking that salt and heat are the first line of attack to treat disease. Heat is only good for certain pathogens, and actually causes others to flourish. Salt has absolutely no value when treating internal pathogens. Even the "Great Oldtimer", Jack Wattley says salt has no place in the discus medicine cabinet except to be used as a dip or short term bath.

I have successfully treated with metro at temps as high as 96F, simply increasing air to the tank. It doesn't need to be so great as to disturb the discus. Just enough to add some agitation to the surface is all that is needed.

Mat

[Mta472]

If you are going to raise temp I would dose with metro too. Remember do daily water changes with 90+ degree water each day before a dose and keep temp up for a week after tx ends, then slowly lower a degree or two.

First - is fish dark, not eating in back of tank, excreting clear or white strings of mucus? If no, maybe doesn't need heat/metro . . .
Based on my past experiences with sick discus, this one is atypical: it has now been 16 days since I last saw this discus eat. Keep in mind that she was a well fed 5 inch red royal blue, so she had a lot of fat to burn off.

I started the metro a week ago, giving 200 mg/40 L every other day and keeping the temp at 84 degrees. After 3 days I increase the dosage to 400mg/40 L every other day, along with 250 mg tetracycline/40 L each day and raised the temperature to 93 degrees. Today I have gradually added one tablespoonful of aquarium salt per 5 gallons of water. I have not made any water changes yet.

After 4 days of the double dose of metro combined with the daily tetracycline and 93 degrees, the fishes color is much lighter and her eyes are clear and unswollen, yet she pretty much sits on the bottom of the tank and ignores all food. The little cobalt is doing much better and has begun eating again. Do you think I am on the right track? Thanks...Mike

[Willie]

Adding and mixing medication is obviously a really bad idea. You are doing double dosages of metro in combination with a wide spectrum antibiotic. Why? Are you aware of all the side effects of tetracyline? There are many.

I usually avoid this entire area because so many people throw out advice on how to medicate fish when the symptoms are not even fully described. Salt and temperature, on the other hand, will do no harm. They will also make the fish feel much better and allow the fish's immune system do all the work. Medicating the fish when symptoms are undefined is simply irresponsible. Until you know what is the disease, your best chance is to let the fish cure itself.

Willie

[ShinShin]

I do not understand using tetracycline here at all. Increasing the dosage of metro to 400 mg was a good idea. 200 was too low.

There are medications that can safely be used simultainiously, and in fact, work better together. High heat with certain bacterial infections will rapidly worsen a fish's condition. A discus has not much of an immune system, and a rapid increase of bacteria can kill. Salt is useless for internal infections.

Not treating cetrtain diseases quickly will end up with dead fish. However, a shotgun approach will eventually kill your fish as well. Buy some books. Buy a microscope if you are serious about raising discus.

Mat

[Mta472]

If you are going to raise temp I would dose with metro too. Remember do daily water changes with 90+ degree water each day before a dose and keep temp up for a week after tx ends, then slowly lower a degree or two.

First - is fish dark, not eating in back of tank, excreting clear or white strings of mucus? If no, maybe doesn't need heat/metro . . .
The only apparent symptoms my 5 inch red royal blue exhibits now is sitting on the bottom of the tank,breathing somewhat rapidly and refusing to eat.

Her color is good and not at all dark, and her eyes are clear and not dark.

Is there some way I can force feed her with eg a medicine dropper and either some frozen blood worms, color bits, Sera bits or flake food? If so, what is the proper procedure.

Also, no one else is mentionning partial water changes - should I do them at all and if so how often? Thanks for the help. Mike