White Butterfly Discus question...

[poconogal]

Okay, I've seen many White Butterfly pictures and they all have had white bodies, with red on their faces and fins. Are there other variants of the White Butterfly? For instance, I've just looked at some that Sunrise Tropicals has (pg. 4) and they seem to have blue fins and whitish faces. I'm wondering because I'm thinking of purchasing some White Butterflys, of course. ;)

[DISCUS USA]

If you buying White Butterflies get White Butterflies dont accept immitations going by made up names used to fool peoples perceptions of what the immitation will look like as adult is all i got to say,,


I trust Tony if he says they are White Butterflies at 2 inches then thats what they will be in a year from now.. there are other people out there now trying to pass throw backs as White Butterflies i wont mention names but if you want wb make sure you have the WORD from seller that your fish will absolutely turn out to be wb not some rainbow of colors thing in few months..

[poconogal]

If you buying White Butterflies get White Butterflies dont accept immitations going by made up names used to fool peoples perceptions of what the immitation will look like as adult is all i got to say,,


I trust Tony if he says they are White Butterflies at 2 inches then thats what they will be in a year from now.. there are other people out there now trying to pass throw backs as White Butterflies i wont mention names but if you want wb make sure you have the WORD from seller that your fish will absolutely turn out to be wb not some rainbow of colors thing in few months..
Well, the thing is, they are NOT 2 inchers, they are about 4.5 inchers. So what does a White Butterfly actually look like?

[April]

white butterflies start out little striated things..and they cover over later. they do keep the striations in their faces. cary has some..his are very nice. i had a pair from him..and had fry many moons ago.
funny..when they were first around..no one wanted them really...everyone wanted the new snowwhites etc..now..seems everyone seems to want them.
heres a link to some of carys older ones. he called his white diamonds. hes been working on a breeding program for them now . http://www.greatlakesdiscus.com/whitediamond.jpg

[Kindredspirit]

Wanna see mine Connie? He came from Kenny ~ but these pics do no justice as they sux!


Marie ~ http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/29/29_5_2.gif


Recent Pic ~
http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f389/MidnightKiss4u/IMG_7439Small.jpg

A month earlier ~
http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f389/MidnightKiss4u/IMG_3505Small.jpg

[Kindredspirit]

April ~ that is what mine will look like as an adult? So ~ White Diamond is the same as a White Butterfly? Interesting....I never knew that:p



Marie ~ http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/29/29_5_2.gif

[poconogal]

white butterflies start out little striated things..and they cover over later. they do keep the striations in their faces. cary has some..his are very nice. i had a pair from him..and had fry many moons ago.
funny..when they were first around..no one wanted them really...everyone wanted the new snowwhites etc..now..seems everyone seems to want them.
heres a link to some of carys older ones. he called his white diamonds. hes been working on a breeding program for them now . http://www.greatlakesdiscus.com/whitediamond.jpg
Hi April. So at 4-4.5", would they have striations in face/fins? Yes, right, if they had them as juvies. I'm actually looking for 4" SL, I just wanted to make sure that what I'm thinking is a WB (from pics I've seen) really IS a WB, and not something else that someone just happened to call WB. We all know the confusion with Discus names that exists, that's for sure! Thanks!

Connie

[D4veh]

My understanding is that a White Diamond is another name for a Snow White.....A White Butterfly is a Pigeon Blood that is almost completely white apart from the orange markings on the face and forehead (maybe a few orange spots on body).......I have adult ones of each I will try to post pics when I get home from work............

[poconogal]

Wanna see mine Connie? He came from Kenny ~ but these pics do no justice as they sux!


Marie ~ http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/29/29_5_2.gif


Recent Pic ~
http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f389/MidnightKiss4u/IMG_7439Small.jpg

A month earlier ~
http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f389/MidnightKiss4u/IMG_3505Small.jpg
Marie, he's beautiful. Such a gorgeous red eye! I can see the starting of color in the fins, too. Thanks!

[poconogal]

My understanding is that a White Diamond is another name for a Snow White.....A White Butterfly is a Pigeon Blood that is almost completely white apart from the orange markings on the face and forehead (maybe a few orange spots on body).......
That's what I've seen. Sunrise Tropicals has 2 types, a WB and a Super WB, so I think the Super WB is whiter, since Tony said that the regular WBs have more Pidgeon Blood in them. Anyway, I've emailed Tony with these questions, also.

[Kindredspirit]

Thanks Connie ~ they seem to be popular all of a sudden ~ I really know nothing about them but I like him a lot!

He better not get any hint of orange whatsoever ~ no orange allowed:p


Marie ~ http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/29/29_5_2.gif

[poconogal]

Thanks Connie ~ they seem to be popular all of a sudden ~ I really know nothing about them but I like him a lot!

He better not get any hint of orange whatsoever ~ no orange allowed:p


Marie ~ http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/29/29_5_2.gif
Well, Kenny said they wouldn't turn color, even feeding Tetra Bits. I checked on that already. No orange!

[billeagan]

I have spoken with Tony on the super WB and he advised that the fins will be blue and the eye will turn red. The super is suppose to have zero peppering and the face will stay white instead of turning orange.

[poconogal]

I have spoken with Tony on the super WB and he advised that the fins will be blue and the eye will turn red. The super is suppose to have zero peppering and the face will stay white instead of turning orange.
Thanks, Bill. Gee, now I don't know which I want, the super WB sounds like it will be beautiful, too.... hmmmmm

[Ryan]

Please remember that if you feed the fish any kind of red enhancers (anything with astaxanthin/Naturose) they will turn orange. I have been feeding mine a bunch of different things and they're bright orange, although their white is showing through.

The ones on Sunrise Tropicals' site don't look like most white butterflies I've seen. They may be "new" and "improved" white butterflies, because I doubt the original WB strains are being bred much. I know a bunch of people (like Barb Newell) have some of the more original looking ones, but I'm sure the import versions have been greatly changed in the past few years.

[poconogal]

Please remember that if you feed the fish any kind of red enhancers (anything with astaxanthin/Naturose) they will turn orange. I have been feeding mine a bunch of different things and they're bright orange, although their white is showing through.

The ones on Sunrise Tropicals' site don't look like most white butterflies I've seen. They may be "new" and "improved" white butterflies, because I doubt the original WB strains are being bred much. I know a bunch of people (like Barb Newell) have some of the more original looking ones, but I'm sure the import versions have been greatly changed in the past few years.
Tony did say that the Super White Butterfly has less Pidgeon Blood in it than the regular White Butterfly, which I assume accounts for the white face and blue fins, no peppering, either.

[Ryan]

It must be crossed to something, then. The original WB were full pigeons I'm pretty sure. I know Cary had bred his with blue diamonds at one point which gave them a blue hue in the fins. This is why he called his "White Diamonds" rather than "White Butterflies".

[April]

thats right. he coined that name..before anyone else called any of them white diamonds. his have the striations on the face. pigeon. the ones barb has..are from cary. maybe she has pics on her sponsor site or website. not sure.
i believe it takes awhile for the white to cover over.

http://www.canadadiscus.com/discus/wb4.html
heres some of barbs butterflies. i believe she got hers from carys stock.

[lhforbes12]

Okay, I've seen many White Butterfly pictures and they all have had white bodies, with red on their faces and fins. Are there other variants of the White Butterfly? For instance, I've just looked at some that Sunrise Tropicals has (pg. 4) and they seem to have blue fins and whitish faces. I'm wondering because I'm thinking of purchasing some White Butterflys, of course. ;)

Bill Egan has some white butterflys like the ones you were talking about White bodies and faces, blue in the unpaired fins. They are about 2 1/2" if I remember correctly.

[Ed13]

this is what i call Wb,
http://forum.simplydiscus.com//showthread.php?t=52699
the one in front in pic #2

Willi's version
http://forum.simplydiscus.com//showthread.php?t=45668&page=4

Barb's
http://forum.simplydiscus.com//showthread.php?t=45464&page=2

As far as I know, blue pigeons are usually the ones being confused with wb

[April]

here were mine from cary. about 4 years or more ago. my heater stuck on..and unfortuneately..they got cooked. : (

[April]

forgot the pic.

[April]

and one more. these were from cary. my friend bill bought them..and raised them up. then i got them. : )

[D4veh]

And here is the White Diamond for Comparison.............The picture doesn't show the blue in the fins very well..............

Also the amount of red/orange on the body is the only difference between a WB and a BP...........The Orange seems to spread out and diminish as the fish gets older............

[poconogal]

and one more. these were from cary. my friend bill bought them..and raised them up. then i got them. : )
Those are exactly what I'm looking for, in about a 4-4.5" SL size. April, they were beautiful. What a shame about the heater. That's why I won't use a heater anymore without my trusty Otto controller, which has a safety shut off at 95 degrees.

Connie

[poconogal]

And here is the White Diamond for Comparison.............The picture doesn't show the blue in the fins very well..............

Also the amount of red/orange on the body is the only difference between a WB and a BP...........The Orange seems to spread out and diminish as the fish gets older............
So a BP would be very similar to a WB? Base body color would be what in the BP then? I thought it was light blue, but I've never seen one in person.

[poconogal]

Bill Egan has some white butterflys like the ones you were talking about White bodies and faces, blue in the unpaired fins. They are about 2 1/2" if I remember correctly.
I'm looking for about 4" SL though, of the type that April posted, plus Bill isn't shipping to homes yet, only airport to airport. Closest airport to my home is over an hour's drive. Fed Ex to my door would be much better, even though its more expensive.

[D4veh]

The base colour of the WB/BP does seem to have a bluish/silver tinge to it......

[poconogal]

The base colour of the WB/BP does seem to have a bluish/silver tinge to it......
Sounds nice, too. So many Discus, so little tank space. I haven't even got my new 75 up yet and I think its too small already :D

[greyhoundfan]

here were mine from cary. about 4 years or more ago. my heater stuck on..and unfortuneately..they got cooked. : (

:( Sorry to hear that.

[poconogal]

Thanks all for your help and sharing your pics!

[Moon]

Those are exactly what I'm looking for, in about a 4-4.5" SL size. April, they were beautiful. What a shame about the heater. That's why I won't use a heater anymore without my trusty Otto controller, which has a safety shut off at 95 degrees.

Connie

Connie
Can you give some details of your trusty Otto? A few months back I cooked two of my largest. They were Barb's OG at least 7in SL. I was very upset.
Joe

[Alan]

From what I know, the "original" White Butterfly is more white and "orangey" and not much, if any at all, of a bluish hue. However, it is rare to find them with a totally white body - they will have orange spots that don't "white up." So, some breeders "diamondized" them by crossing them with Blue Diamonds to get a more solid body color, but they got the bluish hue.

Don't take my word for the above. Just some notes I took based on research and communicating with breeders. At this point, you won't really know what strains went in or if they are throwbacks unless you witness everything firsthand. You may be able to make an educated guess when you get them to spawn and grow the fry yourself to see what they turn out to.

[poconogal]

Connie
Can you give some details of your trusty Otto? A few months back I cooked two of my largest. They were Barb's OG at least 7in SL. I was very upset.
Joe

Oh, I'm so sorry, Joe, that's horrible.

The Otto controller can be had here: www.angelsplus.com or you can google otto or otto aquarium to get the website.

At angelsplus.com he sells the controller that can handle up to 500W, and it costs roughly $15 USD.

At the Otto website, they were more expensive, but they were having a 50% sale.

It is very accurate and I originally purchased the Otto Computherm heater with controller 13 years ago after going thru a bunch of heaters that did not keep tank temp stable (one of them was the much touted Ebo Jager, which was starting to cook the tank!) Now Otto only sells the controller and you can attach any heater to it. If you've never used one, all you have to do is turn the thermostat knob on your heater up as high as it will go, then plug the heater into the controller and set your desired temperature on the controller. Place the heater and the temperature probe from the controller into your tank, plug the controller into your electric outlet, and you're all set. The controller will now control your heater. I still use mine from 13 years ago in my QT tank and have the 500W controller for my Discus tank now. I have never had a problem with a heater since using the controller. There are other controllers out there, but much more money. I think they have digital readouts, the Otto does not.

HTH, Connie

[poconogal]

From what I know, the "original" White Butterfly is more white and "orangey" and not much, if any at all, of a bluish hue. However, it is rare to find them with a totally white body - they will have orange spots that don't "white up." So, some breeders "diamondized" them by crossing them with Blue Diamonds to get a more solid body color, but they got the bluish hue.

Don't take my word for the above. Just some notes I took based on research and communicating with breeders. At this point, you won't really know what strains went in or if they are throwbacks unless you witness everything firsthand. You may be able to make an educated guess when you get them to spawn and grow the fry yourself to see what they turn out to.
Alan, thanks for the info, I did not know the background of the WB and your info explains some things. Before I can get them to spawn, however, I need to get them! That's where I'm having a problem, especially since I want 4.5-5" size. If you have any clue where they can be had, let me know!

Connie

[Alan]

Dan of Gulf Coast Discus (www.gulfcoastdiscus.com (http://www.gulfcoastdiscus.com)) had them a couple of months ago, about 2.5"-3". Look at this thread http://forum.simplydiscus.com//showthread.php?t=51235 Maybe you can call him and find out if he can get them on his next order or if he kept some to grow out that he may be willing to sell right now.

I saw some at the Gold Mountain Discus (www.goldmountaindiscus.com (http://www.goldmountaindiscus.com)) website before. I'm not sure if Frank got them to spawn or if he has the bigger ones available.

I read somewhere that Barb Newell had fries (www.canadadiscus.com (http://www.canadadiscus.com)). I'm not sure if they were WB's or how long ago that was. I like the pics of the WB discus on her website though.

Tony of Sunrise Tropicals (www.sunrisetropicals.com (http://www.sunrisetropicals.com)) has them available right now. They look like the hybrid type though (the bigger ones 4.5"-5"). They look more bluish and the face looks solid.

Personally, I think they lost their "appeal" with the solid face and the bluish tint makes them look like blue diamonds (like bluish White Diamonds :D). My personal preference will be the whitish Cobalt Blues with the orangey base - hehe. Good luck with your search.

[Ryan]

I got some from Dan in July that came from Forrest. I fed them some foods that enhanced their red, so they lost their pale peachy color, but you can see how they're turning out in the Photo Gallery.

http://forum.simplydiscus.com//showthread.php?t=52038

[poconogal]

I got some from Dan in July that came from Forrest. I fed them some foods that enhanced their red, so they lost their pale peachy color, but you can see how they're turning out in the Photo Gallery.

http://forum.simplydiscus.com//showthread.php?t=52038

Hi Ryan. Yes, I remember seeing your posts. They are turning out really beautiful, I love them! I am jealous. I know I won't have the time to grow them out though. I just won't be able to manage it, that's why I'm looking for larger ones.

[Ryan]

Hi Ryan. Yes, I remember seeing your posts. They are turning out really beautiful, I love them! I am jealous. I know I won't have the time to grow them out though. I just won't be able to manage it, that's why I'm looking for larger ones.

I know the feeling. I originally was looking for larger ones. Not only for the reason of not having time to grow them out, but also because you have a better idea of how the color is developing. Some white butterflies are more solid than others.

You might want to check with Frank @ Gold Mountain. I know he had small ones, but I think he told me he could get the larger ones if someone wanted them. Or maybe I just totally made that up :) I don't remember anymore. I messaged so many people about WB in the last 6 months that I've forgotten who had what.

Ryan

[poconogal]

I know the feeling. I originally was looking for larger ones. Not only for the reason of not having time to grow them out, but also because you have a better idea of how the color is developing. Some white butterflies are more solid than others.

You might want to check with Frank @ Gold Mountain. I know he had small ones, but I think he told me he could get the larger ones if someone wanted them. Or maybe I just totally made that up :) I don't remember anymore. I messaged so many people about WB in the last 6 months that I've forgotten who had what.

Ryan

Thanks, Ryan, I will check w/Frank. I know what you mean about messaging so many people... they seem hard to come by.

Connie

[April]

frank is growing fry out. he did a group order from taiwan..but i think he said that was the last one..he has what he needs now for himself..thats it.
be patient..then in a month from now..beg cary...hes growing a bunch out right now.

[poconogal]

frank is growing fry out. he did a group order from taiwan..but i think he said that was the last one..he has what he needs now for himself..thats it.
be patient..then in a month from now..beg cary...hes growing a bunch out right now.

Okay, Cary, I am prepared to beg...

I already tried to PM him. His box was full, already! Popular guy!

Thanks, April

[Alan]

I already tried to PM him. His box was full, already! Popular guy!

I read somewhere that it's better to call him. His cellphone is posted on his website (unless that's not current anymore).

[poconogal]

I read somewhere that it's better to call him. His cellphone is posted on his website (unless that's not current anymore).
Alan, I think I remember Harriet posting his cell #, too. I'm going to check it out. Thanks!

[April]

yeah cary doesnt do ims or emails..anymore..too many.

[poconogal]

Understandable, with his rep for quality, etc.

[April]

http://www.greatlakesdiscus.com/whitediamondsandtangerines.jpg
http://www.greatlakesdiscus.com/aaa8.jpg
http://www.greatlakesdiscus.com/whitediamond.jpg
off his website. that was a few years back ....hes been working like a mad scientist in his basement on them.

[poconogal]

http://www.greatlakesdiscus.com/whitediamondsandtangerines.jpg
http://www.greatlakesdiscus.com/aaa8.jpg
http://www.greatlakesdiscus.com/whitediamond.jpg
off his website. that was a few years back ....hes been working like a mad scientist in his basement on them.
ooohhhhhhh! cheers to the mad scientist!

[lhforbes12]

April,
You don't like Cary's fish at all, by any chance, do you? <grin>

Connie,
That reminds me. Harriet is going to visit Cary at the end of this month and has been bugging me to talk to him about getting some fish that she can pick up for me. This may be a prefect time for you to talk to Cary about getting some and letting Harriet bring them to me for grow out... of course you do run the risk that I may never let them go <ewg>

[poconogal]

April,
You don't like Cary's fish at all, by any chance, do you? <grin>

Connie,
That reminds me. Harriet is going to visit Cary at the end of this month and has been bugging me to talk to him about getting some fish that she can pick up for me. This may be a prefect time for you to talk to Cary about getting some and letting Harriet bring them to me for grow out... of course you do run the risk that I may never let them go <ewg>

Larry, you really would do that for me? That is so nice of you. Since you said you don't like WBs, there's probably a 50/50 chance that you will keep them! LOL.

I'll email you. Wow, I'm very touched. No, no, not in the head, Larry!

[Ryan]

Larry, you can grow some out for me too if you want to, seeing as how I only have room for 1 tank at the current time :) Would I have to pay you like a discus-sitting fee? Room and board? :p

[lhforbes12]

Ryan,
Its funny (ironic) that you should mention that, or did you see the other thread? In any case we had just been discussing doing that, growing out fry for a fee. I know you were being funny, but what would you think of such an idea?
Nah, it couldn't work. The shipping charges alone would be outrageous.

<--------- Asks and answers his own questions

[April]

well..i hope cary has some left for you guys..cause mine are already paid for...in theory coming on thursday. : )
no i dont like carys fish at all larry..ok i lie. ive known cary..since he was a pup. well..ok exaggerating...i knew him before he had his first website..and he was computer illiterate. hows that?

[Tony_S]

Damn Prilly...that was back when Larry Grenier had his forum, DRP (Discus Resource Page) wasn't it?

That was the first I'd ever heard of, or seen the "Grand Master".

Tony

ps....HA!! We get ours before you get yours!!:p

[lhforbes12]

April & Tony,
I am not a fan of white butterflies (actually Tony already knows this) so if I don't get some for Connie, oh well. It would be nice if she could though. Just to be clear I would much rather have some of Beth's OG fry, than any WB. And even there, I just got some OGs from Bill Egan that I am very happy with :-) Does Cary have any wild stock, not true wilds but F1 or Fx do either of you know?

[April]

tony fine then...you can have yours before me..i had to wait till thursday...i have to go to the states to pick up!! borders..customs..yuk...and yes..thats when i found cary..when he used to have those ads for buy two get two free. im running out of room. dbws. alot of us go way back to there..us old folgies.
not sure if cary has f1 wilds..etc..hes a pigeon man. bright pretty colours.

[lhforbes12]

Thanks April!
The site shows some heckels but Cary is calling them wild, and like I said I would like them at least one generation removed from the Amazon Basin.