What are my options for softening water?

[CAGE-RATTLER]

Obviously RO Filters seem to be the most popular option and more than likely i'll go that route.

Yes ive done some searching but still have questions on the basics.

I know the dip strips arent all that accurate compared to drop tests, and i'll be getting one soon, but my hardness doesnt seem to be as bad as alot of others ive seen post here. But evidently its keeping my eggs from being fertilized.

Both KH & GH seem to be close to 120 ppm

What would my least expensive option be for an RO unit??

And is that all i need ........... The filter unit itself ......... or is there other components to go with it?

[Harriett]

If I were you, I'd talk to Randall, resident Guru of all things RO.
Harriett

[Dave_Discus]

If you are sure your GH is really 120ppm....you are almost there.

I make up all of my water. I do not trust the tap.


I started with a 50gpd unit....but upgraded.
I would get a 100gpd deal off ebay. Dirt cheap.
I would also get one with DI as well.

My ro water comes out 007ppm.
I add some ro right to get the GH up to 225.
I add some ph stable to get the kh to 3-4.
This puts the ph at 6.6

This has been working good for me.

Get an ro. People will say the ebay one is cheap...they are
probably trying to sell you one themselves. Like this one:

http://cgi.ebay.com/New-6-stage-100-GPD-Reverse-Osmosis-RO-DI-Water-Filters_W0QQitemZ120028688055QQihZ002QQcategoryZ20 684QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

I'd get this one.

[CAGE-RATTLER]

If you are sure your GH is really 120ppm....you are almost there.

I make up all of my water. I do not trust the tap.


I started with a 50gpd unit....but upgraded.
I would get a 100gpd deal off ebay. Dirt cheap.
I would also get one with DI as well.

My ro water comes out 007ppm.
I add some ro right to get the GH up to 225.
I add some ph stable to get the kh to 3-4.
This puts the ph at 6.6

This has been working good for me.

Get an ro. People will say the ebay one is cheap...they are
probably trying to sell you one themselves. Like this one:

http://cgi.ebay.com/New-6-stage-100-GPD-Reverse-Osmosis-RO-DI-Water-Filters_W0QQitemZ120028688055QQihZ002QQcategoryZ20 684QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

I'd get this one.

Looks like alot more than i need ....... especially with the storage tank.

I dont think 4 gallons would go very far would it?

I'd probably run it to a 55 gallon barrel to do a 50/50 mix or whatever is needed to do WC's on the breeder tanks.

What about the one they have listed thats just an RO filter without DI & storage drum for $60??
What are the benefits of having the DI filter also?

I dont know alot about these so any info and tips i can get would be appreciated.

[lhforbes12]

Cage,
Harriet is correct, talk to Randal. You are correct, you do NOT need the little 4 gallon storage tank. I doubt that Dave uses his. I also agree with Dave that getting the 100 GPD unit is the way to go. I like having the DI filter, but most don't use it (It is expensive to run, far more so than just the RO alone). Be aware that all of these units are giving you the "best case scenario" about output, you need perfect conditions to get that much out (70F in, 60 psi in) you may only get half of that per day. Also there is a LOT of "waste" water. Frankly, if your water is only 120 ppm you really don't even need RO, it's plenty soft enough already.

[CAGE-RATTLER]

Frankly, if your water is only 120 ppm you really don't even need RO, it's plenty soft enough already.

But unfortunately not low enough for the eggs to fertilize.

I had a pair in my community tank with a slightly lower hardness and PH and they got to wigglers ............ the same pair in my breeder tanks turn white within 24 hours.

Thats why im looking for my cheapest option to lower the hardness.

How much water is wasted with just a simple RO filter?? and how much wasted with the DI added?

I believe i can use the waste water for the grow out tanks correct?

By the way .......... how does the waste water differ from my tap water after being filtered?


I think Randal posted in another thread that he's not selling anything at the moment.

[lora]

I buy my R/O water from a make-your-own wine store, costs about $3 for a 5 gallon jug, that you can refill yourself. There are also stores around here that sell nothing but water.

[lhforbes12]

But unfortunately not low enough for the eggs to fertilize.

I had a pair in my community tank with a slightly lower hardness and PH and they got to wigglers ............ the same pair in my breeder tanks turn white within 24 hours.

Thats why im looking for my cheapest option to lower the hardness.

Makes sense to me


How much water is wasted with just a simple RO filter?? and how much wasted with the DI added?

I believe it's 4 or 5 times waste to output water


I believe i can use the waste water for the grow out tanks correct?

Yep! Actually you can use it for all of your tanks, except the breeders of course


By the way .......... how does the waste water differ from my tap water after being filtered?

It's already de-chlorinated, having run through the two carbon blocks removes all traces of chlorine



I think Randal posted in another thread that he's not selling anything at the moment.

I know, but I think he is selling them again now. I could be mistaken though.

[CAGE-RATTLER]

Till i get an RO filter .................. Ive been looking for places that sell RO water but havent had any luck.

But i stopped at MARS yesterday and saw they had gallons of purified water and figured it was just distilled water but bought 2 gallons of it.

When i got home (and put on my glasses) i saw on the label that it is in fact RO water and tested it and got a reading of KH=40 ppm and GH=0 ppm. My wife also had a gallon of what she said was distilled water and i tested it also and got the same readings.

Im wanting to try to add some to my 20 high breeder tanks when i notice my fish ready to lay again but not sure how much to add.

I figured when i see them ready ............. i could lower the water level so i wouldnt have to add as much RO water to get a lower hardness.

My question is if i lower the finished level to 15 gallons how much RO water should i have in there to get where i want to be??

My hardness right now is both right around 120 ppm for both KH & GH.


This obviously isnt a way i want to have to always lower my hardness (especially at $1.13 per gallon) but till i get an RO Filter .......... its worth a shot i guess .... lol.

Would 10 gallons tap and 5 gallons RO take me where i need to be?

[CAGE-RATTLER]

Which hardness level is the most important for optimal discus breeding ..... the GH or KH?? and what should they be?

Im actually surprized there is no sticky in this section for optimal water quality for breeding! :confused:

And telling me the optimal TDS reading wont do me any good as i dont have a TDS tester ..... lol.

[sleonard]

I am able to buy RO water from a vending machine at the corner Circle K for 20 cents a gallon but even that got real expensive doing large water changes on several tanks. (in my case I was unable to use any tap at all due to contamination)

10 gallons @ 120ppm + 5 gallons @ 40ppm would put you at about 93 ppm and that should be low enough but still at the upper range. Try it and see.

Scott

[Dave_Discus]

This hobby ain't cheap...I can see the money flying away already,
but I will say an RO set up is most likely the best purchase
can make. A close second would be ph probe, good test kits,

I thought at first the water chemisty would be so different from my salt water days. It's not. Different parameters, but water is water.

I wish my tap water came out 6.6 ph 050 tds no Ammonia...etc...
But I got liquid rock. With chemicals.

Buck up and get an ro...90% of this hobby is chemistry.
Prepare the labratory.

[CAGE-RATTLER]

I am able to buy RO water from a vending machine at the corner Circle K for 20 cents a gallon but even that got real expensive doing large water changes on several tanks. (in my case I was unable to use any tap at all due to contamination)

10 gallons @ 120ppm + 5 gallons @ 40ppm would put you at about 93 ppm and that should be low enough but still at the upper range. Try it and see.

Scott


So im assuming your saying the KH is the hardness factor i need to lower correct??

[CAGE-RATTLER]

This hobby ain't cheap...I can see the money flying away already,
but I will say an RO set up is most likely the best purchase
can make. A close second would be ph probe, good test kits,

I thought at first the water chemisty would be so different from my salt water days. It's not. Different parameters, but water is water.

I wish my tap water came out 6.6 ph 050 tds no Ammonia...etc...
But I got liquid rock. With chemicals.

Buck up and get an ro...90% of this hobby is chemistry.
Prepare the labratory.

"Bucking up" is easier said than done right now and i plan on getting one when i have the extra money!

Right now my life is in a bit of disarray as my fiancee that's been living with me for almost 12 years just bought a house and getting ready to move into ........... and im not going with her .... so i will have all the bills here to take care of and im not working full time right now.

Ive been trying to start my own business for awhile and lets just say ......... I dont have a steady income coming in so any spending right now is tough to do.

[Dave_Discus]

I will check with some freinds and see if anyone has a unit around.

Sorry to hear about the Fiancee moving out...that can't be good.

What kind of business? I have my own Flooring business...it's
good when you can work for yourself.

GH is basically a measure of total hardness, I think for breeding
you would want to be around 50ppm from what I have read.

KH is the part of hardness that "buffers" or keeps the ph stable
while acids produced by the nitrogen cycle try to eat away
at it lowering the ph. I try to keep kh around 3 degrees.
Now I haven't bred (Discus!) yet, but I have done alot of research.

Have you ever seen one of those "tapwater conditioners" at a pet store?
Those will make some soft water on the cheap for awhile. You could also
capture some rainwater and test it too?

[sleonard]

So im assuming your saying the KH is the hardness factor i need to lower correct??

Umm, no. You didn't give the values of Gh and Kh that make up your 120ppm tap water so I can't tell you anything but the total hardness values. If you mixed it 50/50 you would end up at 80ppm total hardness. I'm just averaging the values using equal parts, i.e. - 2 parts @ 120 + 1 part @ 40 / 3 parts = 93.3 ppm OR 1 part @ 120 + 1 part @ 40 / 2 parts => 80 ppm.

You did say the the 40 ppm RO water was all Kh so that probably wouldn't be the best to use IF you need to lower the Kh of your water. BTW, 40ppm is pretty poor RO water, try a different brand. Distilled water should be 0ppm, maybe your testing was flawed since you got identical readings for both the RO and the distilled waters and both readings were suspicously high.

I don't actually know which is more important to lower but I would guess it is Kh since a large part of KH is usually Calcium and I think the problem encountered is that the "eggshells" absorb it and become too hard for fertilization. Actually, you'd better wait for a more knowledgable answer on this.

[Dave_Discus]

You want to lower the gh....the eggs from what I understand..don't absorb
hardness...it's an osmosis thing...the eggs have a membrane and the pressure
of the harder water trying to equalize with the soft suffocates or kills the embryo. You would still want some kh...to stablize ph. KH is part of gh.

Calcium and magnisium make up the majority of gh from what I understand.

[CAGE-RATTLER]

Umm, no. You didn't give the values of Gh and Kh that make up your 120ppm tap water so I can't tell you anything but the total hardness values. If you mixed it 50/50 you would end up at 80ppm total hardness. I'm just averaging the values using equal parts, i.e. - 2 parts @ 120 + 1 part @ 40 / 3 parts = 93.3 ppm OR 1 part @ 120 + 1 part @ 40 / 2 parts => 80 ppm.

You did say the the 40 ppm RO water was all Kh so that probably wouldn't be the best to use IF you need to lower the Kh of your water. BTW, 40ppm is pretty poor RO water, try a different brand. Distilled water should be 0ppm, maybe your testing was flawed since you got identical readings for both the RO and the distilled waters and both readings were suspicously high.

I don't actually know which is more important to lower but I would guess it is Kh since a large part of KH is usually Calcium and I think the problem encountered is that the "eggshells" absorb it and become too hard for fertilization. Actually, you'd better wait for a more knowledgable answer on this.




My hardness right now is both right around 120 ppm for both KH & GH.


In other words ....GH=120 & KH=120

Im just using dip strips so who knows how accurate that is.

Everytime i look for a better hardness test kit .... no one has them.


You want to lower the gh....the eggs from what I understand..don't absorb
hardness...it's an osmosis thing...the eggs have a membrane and the pressure
of the harder water trying to equalize with the soft suffocates or kills the embryo. You would still want some kh...to stablize ph. KH is part of gh.

Calcium and magnisium make up the majority of gh from what I understand.

Now im even more confused ..... lol.

[sleonard]

Ah, sorry. I thought you meant that both added up to 120. That means that your total hardness (like what would be measured with a TDS meter) is 240 ppm and that is way too hard for breeding. Total hardness (Gh + Kh) should be at most 100 ppm. It also means that you would need at least 75% of that store RO to at most 25% of your tap water to get in the breeding range. You probably will need to wait until you get your own RO unit.

I've had a long day and I am really tired so I could be dribbling nonsense but I understood Calcium Sulphate and Magnesium Sulphate to be alkaline buffers that add to Kh as well as raise/stabilize Ph.

Those dip strips are useless. You won't be able to make any accurate recipes for making good water until you at least get a titration type test kit. Get a good TDS meter too when you can.

Scott

[lhforbes12]

KH is not that important, it's basically a measure of carbonates (CaCO3 being the main one) GH is a measurement of Ca and Mg mainly (other trace elements will also raise GH but for our purposes they are irrelevant). So what you really need to do is lower GH only. If we take your measurements at face value you have about 6.5 GH and 6.5 KH both well within breeding range. Since you are however, having a problem, lowering your overall TDS probably will help. I would start by trying 3 parts tap to 1 part RO/Distilled. If that doesn't work add more.

[CAGE-RATTLER]

The tank i got wigglers in was only slightly lower in hardness and ph so i didnt think i was to far off.

[CAGE-RATTLER]

OK ........... one last try of some bottled water before i take the RO plunge!

I picked up 10 gallons of distilled water today and will try it in my breeder tank when i know the one pair, that got to wigglers in the community tank, is ready to spawn again. Should be early next week so i have a lil while to wait.

I just tested this water and got a totally different reading from what i got with the other water i purchased and tested. Kind of strange i thought!

The water i just picked up is distilled water ...... distilled by steam & ozonation according to the label. I took a reading on it and the KH is zero but the GH ........well the GH was hard to read on the test strips but looks like its between 40 - 80. If my memory is right ........ these readings are just the opposite of the other water i had gotten before. Not sure whats up with that??

I figure i'll try a 50/50 mix this time with it and see what happens.


One question .....and hopefully not too stupid .............. Is DI filtered water Like what you get from an RO-DI filter ......... is it Distilled water like what i just bought??

[RandalB]

Nope, Distilled water is purified by boiling it. A lot of Minerals can sneak in as can volitile organics. Not to worry tho, I doubt any calcium or magnesium snuck in. They are the ones to worry about when talking discus eggs.

DI water has been treated by passing it through a deionization filter. That is a bed of tiny plastic beads that have a chemical baked onto them that attracts a specific type of ionic content, positive or negative. It will remove most types of ionic content from water. Problem is, it's either messy to recharge (treat with a chemical to get it to work) or expensive to replace.

If buying bottled water, look for the stuff that has been treated by reverse osmosis and ozone. It may have a little ionic content but not much.

HTH,
RandalB

[CAGE-RATTLER]

Thanx Randall .......... I had a feeling the DI didnt stand for Distilled .... but had to ask.

With zero KH ........... im assuming it still will lower my hardness correct?

[RandalB]

Yep. It's the Kh That will Give you the egg problems...

RandalB

[ronrca]

Cage, have you checked out www.airwaterice.com ?
Id be hesitant on the ebay 'deal's' as the saying goes 'you get what you pay for'. Some systems are using cheap parts, filters, membranes where you only pay more in the end because your not happy with it.

Bottled water might be a little tricky as well as there are no regulations/standards for bottle water as far as I know. Just a fyi! I found some bottled water not as pure as others.

[CAGE-RATTLER]

Yeah ive checked that site as well as others and when im ready to purchase ....... I'll be checking them all again .... lol.

My pairs tricked me this week and layed earler than normal so i wasnt able to add any distilled water this time around so i guess im waiting till next week.

3 of the 4 pairs had all layed sunday afternoon and i wasnt expecting anything till tuesday or wednesday based on how they have been laying. The main pair i wanted to try the distilled water with (the ones that have had wigglers already) layed only 5 days after they're last spawn and right in the middle of the Ravens game .... lol.

Im starting to wonder if thats the pair i should try it on tho ..... cause there last 2 spawns were eaten within 24 hours. I didnt even get to see if they turned white this time .......... they were gone by the time i got up monday.