Discus Gender gap...is there one?

[brewmaster15]

HI all,

Been thinking again and wanted to ask your thoughts on something... Just some general observations...

I usually Buy discus in group of 6-10 pcs...They are usually in the 2-3 " range.... I grow them out in the hopes of getting some keepers for pairs..

I don't know if its just me, but when I do this I almost alway get a majority of females.. Which is really frustrating as all heck if you are trying to get breeding stock...

Heres my thoughts... Even at young ages, Male discus are more desireble to hobbyists from the stand point that they are reported to grow faster and be larger..In general.. Their colors are also reported to be brighter and more developed.. ( a common cichlid trait). I often find that their shape is better than females.. (subjective I know...but its what I feel)


I'm guessing most discus that win competitions are male? No direct experience there maybe some of you veteran competition watchers can comment on this?.

So I am wondering.. do you think that sellers and exporters are subconsiously picking out the best ones first for resale...those based on shape and color and size would be mostly male... and then the balence of course would be mostly female? If this is true the longer you wait to buy from a group of discus the higher the chance for many females vs..males. This of course applies to all levels from overseas breeders to resellers and breeders domestically.

Thats one possibility..one other is that provided I really do get mostly females. and you do also....then the ratio of female to male in discus fry may be skewed in favor of females...not unheard of in animals at all. Egg laying has a very costly effect on females and more would make sense to compensate for that.

Anyone have any thoughts on this? Whats been your experience? If you buy a group of discus and grow them out? Do you find a disproportionate number of one sex over the other?

thanks,
al

[Squiggy]

Interesting...I was just discussing gender gap and gender manipulation with myself last night...:crazy:

I think, subconciously or not, buyers select fish based on color and size over all else. As with most wild species, this would usually tend to be males...leaving an increasing percentage of females till the end...I know thats how it seemed when I was breeding for sale. Depending on how many were purchased, I would always throw in a few 'extras' from the second or third teir...

The question I was pondering last night was whether the gender bias in a hatch can be manipulated by hatching temps....as with aligators where the temperature of the egg during gestation determines the sex....I'm still waiting to get back to myself on this...:crazy:

Joe

[Rod]

I have a bad habit of choosing majority males among my own bred fry, i'm sure its because of the reasons Al pointed out. With fish i buy elsewhere i'd say i get more females but its not a high difference. I have often wondered if ph andtemp has a part to play in the sex ratio.

[Alight]

In the past (10-30 years ago) I usually got nearly 50:50 males to females. In the batch I ordered to get started here in Utah, I got 2 females, 6 males. In the batch of 8 of my own fry I saved for myself recently, it's looking like 7 were males and one female--probaby for the reasons Rod stated.

Just an observation--I have no explanations other than luck for me. I picked fish from the batch of 80 that had nice shape, good color, but tried to pick both large and medium sized to keep from getting all of one sex. The 1 female is one of the larger fish, btw.

[Ed13]

Interesting...I was just discussing gender gap and gender manipulation with myself last night...:crazy:

I think, subconciously or not, buyers select fish based on color and size over all else. As with most wild species, this would usually tend to be males...leaving an increasing percentage of females till the end...I know thats how it seemed when I was breeding for sale. Depending on how many were purchased, I would always throw in a few 'extras' from the second or third teir...

The question I was pondering last night was whether the gender bias in a hatch can be manipulated by hatching temps....as with aligators where the temperature of the egg during gestation determines the sex....I'm still waiting to get back to myself on this...:crazy:

Joe

When you get back to yourself:crazy: ,, tell the other person:D that I was thinking exactly everything you wrote especially the temp factor influencing gender in crocodrilians and that intelligent minds usually need psychiatric help:D . But PH and the softness of the water could also have something to do in the development of males to females organs

Not really discus but everytime we get fish with discernible genders ( guppies, dwarf cichlids and african cichlids, platy, swordtails etc) Average hobbyist want the biggest and most colorful fish in the tank, but seasoned aquarists pick two or three females per male. So picking the biggest and most colorful fish usually means getting males:) :)

[brewmaster15]

I'm not sure the pH or Temp would affect the eggs sex outcome here like temp does with some reptiles.. ..It doesn't seem to fit with their evolution in those amazon under water systems.

With Reptiles the temp variation is from the outside of the nest to the inside... Not all eggs are heated evenly...with Discus...all the eggs are exposed to the same pH and temp....because of the water around them.

-al

[Adam Robinson]

Intersting thread I must say....I agree with the above statement that most people choose the biggest healthiest fish...I have found with Frontosa and Morri that people choose the males because of the bump on the head "looking cooooolllll" and the size of the fish...Discus I must admit make it thougher to choose fish I am always finding myself comparing my wilds to small dinner plates and checking them for shape and size (i rambeled on again) on well i love my fish

[Ed13]

With Reptiles the temp variation is from the outside of the nest to the inside... Not all eggs are heated evenly...with Discus...all the eggs are exposed to the same pH and temp....because of the water around them.

-al
That's what I meant a variation may produce more males or more females, but I understand what you mean ALL eggs are exposed to the same parameters so if ph or temp affect gender, then all or nearly all fry would be of the same gender.:confused:

[April]

well...the females especially in wilds..tend to show more red. so id say in that case..more likley to select females.
but if i look at discus..id choose males..as they do look nicer. bigger bodies..rounder nicer fry..but i usually presume they are the big bucks in the tank..and the dominant fish. but id choose them in a heartbeat. then..choose a few smaller ones hoping for females.
id say its as brew and rod say..the breeders are selecting for the best shaped fry.

[lhforbes12]

I find myself agreeing 100% with Al (Light) even to the timeline. Years ago I almost always ended up with half and half without trying consiously. Now, if I purchase 6 I always get the three largest and three smaller ones for the very reason of trying to obtain sex parity. I also agree with Al that size really isn't a good determainent of gender, the largest discus I have ever owned was a female. I also question, at least a bit, coloration and body shape, it seems to me my fish, whether male or female, are usually pretty much on a par with each other. It could be that I prefer wilds and older strains though.

[brewmaster15]

Hmmm... This is interesting..

My experience with the wild is different here males color up more than Females... biologically This is typical of most fish species.


also a note on color.. I do beleive that theres a very big difference in color between males and females as they grow.. Theres a reason why the male hormone...alpha methyltestosterone is used to color up fish... It tricks the fish into thinking they are adult males...so its time to color up.... in the presence of this hormone...fish utilize more pigments in the diet. That male hormone also affects growths. I have no idea at what point sex hormones actually start kicking it naturally...when does a discus hit "puberty" 5-7 months?..Its a guess.. since they often start to breed anytime between 8-15 months..


Anyone with any info on the show discus? Are they mostly male?:)

Anyone else want to touch the question.. Are male Discus better shaped than Female in general? and as such subconciously picked from a group first?:)

-al

[Timbo]

Anyone else want to touch the question.. Are male Discus better shaped than Female in general? and as such subconciously picked from a group first?:)

not being a total expert, but i strongly suspect this is indeed often the case.

when i bought my last clutch (7 gcse and 4 maze) i remember standing in front of Bob's big tank looking at approx. 50 of these (2.5") guys trying to pick out my few and of course my tendency was to go after the biggest and brightest in terms of size and coloration. Luckily for me, Mario was there at the time and together we picked out 4 (of the biggest and brightest) but also 3 smaller and definately less colored to try to ensure some degree of gender mix. If i had been left to my own devices, i would have prolly chosen ALL of them based on who's the biggest and most colorful, and probably would have ended up with mostly males.

just a short story to illustrate your point Al, which i believe is valid

[GulfCoastDiscus]

My .02 cents. As a seller I usually sell all the biggers ones first and end up with the smaller ones. This group ends up mostly females. When I select from the group to keep and grow up. I usually select the biggest and roundest. This group normally ends up mostly males.:)

[jman]

I have had good success getting a good ratio by asking the breeder to make his best guess when I purchase my fish.

Yes, you can't tell at that age but selecting smaller but healthy fish along with a few of the large ones ensures you will get some females.

[1977]

I tell you on my original orders to obtain discus I was sent a great ratio of males to females. I haven't had the chance to breed the ones I actually hand picked yet so I don't know that ration but maybe it's better to let someone without bias select your discus!

[Jarrod]

I am finding this to be a very interesting thread...especially now that I have a possible pair going on. As a total newbie to having a possible breeder pair in the works I read with great interest on the matters of how to sex out a male from a female. I have never gotten to personally see and select from a group of fish to buy and put into my tanks having always had to depend on the breeders I have bought from online. Since only one lfs in my area carries any discus at all in stock at any given time and then when they do have any in stock they very rarely if ever have more than 2-3 in a tank and then in a tank with other species of fish. As you can imagine I would NEVER buy discus from any lfs since I fell that they don't take the kind of care for them that I know that they need to do well and to grow to their full potential. So I am very limited in knowing anything about what you guys have going in this thread but as a lover of discus and a hopefully eventual breeder myself I am limited to tossing the dice as it were and relying on lady luck to get a mix of males/females in any groups of fish I would purchase online.
Just my thoughts so far as I read and learn more, hopefully, I will be able to contribute worthwhile thoughts to this thread.
George