How do you Build a Champion Discus?

[brewmaster15]

Hi all,
How do you Build a Champion Discus? I honestly don't know. I never had a Champion Discus... I have had many fish I was proud of, but more from my own satisfactions...not from a competition point of view.. Do I want to one day have something that I can truely be proud of from a competition point of view.. you betcha!;) :D


What can I tell you about raising a champion Discus....not much I am afraid... I can tell you how to have a fairly decent Sized Discus...I can tell how to have a Healthy one. I can tell you some strategies on getting them Breed... I can share with you some tips on raising young, Culling, quality etc. Basically I can help you be a Champion Discus Hobbyist:) Raising the Champion Fish is out of my league.



But How do you actually breed and Raise a champion discus?... Everytime theres a competition and I see some of these absolutely massive and beautiful Giant discus I wonder that...

What did that breeder do to get that fish like that... Did that fish get the same care as its tank mates and just excel or did the breeder recognize potential at a young age and give it special one on one training.. I can see it now..Its own 400 gal tank, complete with personal trainer...wave currents to swim against for building mass.. High protein diets fed on the hour,every hour, followed by comprehensive blood work ups that target any nutritional deficiencies... Personal Nutritionist on hand? Perhaps there was genetic counseling done prior to the Champion even being selected or maybe just computer simulations run on the possible outcome of dozen of adult fish combinations? Is There a secret society of breeders that buy, sell and trade Genetically superior or enhanced discus thru a by invitation only brokerage?

As the chosen fish matures, is it given one on one lessons on how to act in social circles so as to make a good impression..if so how is this done ...Sign Language? or is there a specialized group of people that can communicate these social rules well under water? Do these Champions to be ever worry about the broad reaching affects of anti-doping laws and competition... I honestly don't know.:)


SADLY, I highly doubt that anyone will give away trade secrets here...But wouldn't it be cool if they did?:)

-al

[White Worm]

I'm currently doing treadmill training with 2 of my more physically fit discus in preparation for the 2008 olympics track and field competition. :D Steroids is the key :p

[TRAKURT]

SADLY, I highly doubt that anyone will give away trade secrets here...But wouldn't it be cool if they did?:)

-al

I wonder How does Stendeker get his fish so big? How do these overseas breeders produce so many fish?
trade secrets?????

[brewmaster15]

Mike I hear they have a new Bow flex out...It comes with Non-abrasive neoprene loops designed to gently but firmly cradle the Pectorial fins of Discus..

It is completely made from Titanium and high grade stainless steel so as to tolerate the most acidic waters...

I hear its all the rage today...There was an infomercial about it yesterday on the Discus Channel.:)

-al

[Timbo]

I'm currently doing treadmill training with 2 of my more physically fit discus in preparation for the 2008 olympics track and field competition. Steroids is the key
heh I can see the headlines now - "Discus Champion Mike Thrown out of Competition for Doping Breech"

err, wait....I did see that headline! http://www.abc.net.au/sport/content/200408/s1184357.htm

[Elcid]

Hey Al:

This is a very good question. You know I raised a bunch of fish in the past 2 years from 2" to maturity. Some in a big tank and others in small. Wierd thing is now they are all about the same size and none are gigantic. Well, I supose gigantic is a matter of opinion. I bought a pair 2 years ago, a Red Snow pair, and I was told that the male is "Very Big". Well most of my fish are as big as him so maybe Very Big isn't gigantic. I like to use the plate analogy for size and most of my fish are the size of a tea plate. How to get them up to a breakfast plate size I wonder? :) I suppose dinner plate size would be the next step. :) It's kinda strange really, I did not follow popular opinion with my fish, I kept them in pure RO and fed them only bloodworms yet my fish became quite big. My leopard became as big as the adult leopard I bought from Dan and my LSS well, they are not smalll, a couple almost as big as my leopard. Now Dan's leopard if you put him on a tea plate his tail would stick out a bit so you can judge how big he is.

HTH,
Sandeep

[brewmaster15]

Sandeep,
I have tried raising discus in big tanks...small tanks,,, tons of wc, 3-6X times a day feeding etc... Looking for that magic combination for massive discus.

Truth is.. I'm still looking. I have to believe barring all else thats its mostly genetics....Kind of like people...some are tall, some are short, some thin and some fat. There's probably ways to maximize genetic potential with diet and wc.... But I have come to believe that most discus will just be average or below average, even with the best of care. I don't think you can take any group of Fry and raise them to something they can not be......The genetic component is important.

I think if you want to maximize your chances to get that super-Dee_duper champion... you need to start with parents that have some of those traits.. Thats why race horses that win races, and dogs that win shows bring so much money. I think most people are kidding themsleves if they expect that any group of fry they buy and Raise will give you huge Fish if you do everything right.. You will probably get decent, average to above average fish... but unless the genetics is there..I doubt you can make a champion from them...although there are a few breeders out there that may be able to squeeze milk from a stone and turn just about any discus intro something special.:) I'm not one of them..but all in all...I am largely Happy with my discus.

hth,
al

[Elcid]

Hey Al:

I wish that was not the answer that somehow there is another way where we don't have to be RICH to get the prize fish :mad: I'm especially disillusioned when I see pics of your fish because for someone of your stature I would think that ppl would give you the spawn of their prize ones? Where does that leave me?

For the rest of us we just don't have the best available to us and even if we succed in breeding those that we have and if genetics is the main factor effecting size then we will never have it!

Happiness is relative. I'm happy with my fish but does not mean that I wouldn't be happier if I had all those champions in my tank ;) The worst of it is that I always see pics of amazing discus in the singapore forum and not that many on ours. I'm patient and waiting for that day when a SimplySponsor will be born and bring us fish like those in Singapore and at the same pricing :)

take care,
Sandeep

[tpl*co]

Reading the first posts the theme song from "ROCKY" is going through my head. LOL.

Followed by Queen "We are the champions" LOL

Early morning here...

Tina

[tpl*co]

heh I can see the headlines now - "Discus Champion Mike Thrown out of Competition for Doping Breech"

err, wait....I did see that headline! http://www.abc.net.au/sport/content/200408/s1184357.htm

Hmmm, shape is all wrong, not round enough... LOL

I do agree though that breeding and genetics has a lot to do with the potential of the fish though. Followed up with good conditions and good diet.

Fingers crossed that I even have a chance at the next ACA.

Tina

[Rod]

Way back i was told by a Hong Kong breeder the usual things like amount of food and w/c, but he also said to get very large fish to seperate the males and females as they mature to allow for uninterupted growth. Breeding activities generally start around 8 to 12 months and a discus cannot have reached full size by then. Breeding activities tend to reduce the food intake, and will frequently slow growth rate. By 18 months your discus will be fully grown and can then be bred or put into a show :D
Your thinking about genetics playing a significant role is right on the money i think, 15cm sl discus are not hard to achieve, even 18cm sl males are not uncommon with most strains, but those truely enormous discus we occasionally see i believe are genetically different to normal strains.

Rod

[brewmaster15]

Sandeep,


I'm especially disillusioned when I see pics of your fish because for someone of your stature I would think that ppl would give you the spawn of their prize ones? Lol.. First I am glad you like my fish so much:confused: ;) but second... My stature? That a Riot! I don't have any great stature in any circles I travel in...thats for sure... Most of the time, I have trouble getting sellers to sell me fish!:)



I'm patient and waiting for that day when a SimplySponsor will be born and bring us fish like those in Singapore and at the same pricing I have heard this from you before Sandeep.. ;) and the reality is sellers in North America , whether sponsors or other...can only pass onto you what is passed on to them from their suppliers... As Buyers, you have the ability to chose sellers with the best stock..those that have inferior stock will go out of business.. and the good stock sellers will thrive...provided everyone is educated about what is good stock and provided everyone is not cheap when shopping for that deal...thats the theory anyway.

It onlys takes Cruising around a few websites to see whats really the average globally..

Bottom line....If you ever find a Seller that is not a sponsor here that meets your expectations , suggest they talk to me about sponsorships:) or perhaps make the trip to Singapore and pick those prizes out yourself.. I think when all is said and Done.. you'll see it was not as easy as it would superficially appear.:) .. Good luck.

-al

[Elcid]

Hey Al:

I wasn't making a joke. Really someone like you should have ONLY PRIZE FISH unless of course they are for sale to the hobbiest. The conspiracy theory says that you MUST HAVE PRIZE FISH that you are hiding :)

After being burned enough times in the 1st 6 months after returning to the hobby buying from Aquabid, Ebay etc. I have made it a point not to buy from anyone other than a simplysponsors, no matter how tempting the deal might be. In the mean time I have enough fish to work with. No matter what quailty fish I have, seeing them grow up, having babies and now their babies growing up is part of the discus experience that is priceless. Will any of them be champions, I don't know? Do I want champions, absolutely :)

take care,
Sandeep

[LizStreithorst]

make the trip to Singapore and pick those prizes out yourself..


That's exactly what I'd like to do, Brew. I want to visit Roy Khoo and bring back some buttocks kickers.

Of course, with all my fears, I'd have to isolate them for 6 months :rolleyes:

[brewmaster15]

LOL Liz,

If you Go Let me Know.. I'll pay you a finders fee.

Sandeep...



wasn't making a joke. Really someone like you should have ONLY PRIZE FISH unless of course they are for sale to the hobbiest. The conspiracy theory says that you MUST HAVE PRIZE FISH that you are hiding
LOL... I think you got me mixed up with some other Brewmaster15:) But tell you what....be sure to tell that to all the discus sellers you meet...maybe it will have a trickle down effect!

-al

[April]

well..we have a fellow who lives on vancouver island here..hes from asia and was wanting to get some extremely nice leopard snakeskins of show quality and to breed. he lived there. they wouldnt sell them to him. competition i guess..
as far as the conditioning..i was told..that exact daily routine is the key. water changes daily ..same time..feeding everyday on a schedule. not varying..the fish get more primed..as any animal does better with a set routine. like show dogs..they get a diet fed to them daily..measured amount..same time..they chow down well as they know its coming. you have to be quite dedicated. also show rabbits. not nibbling all day..they get their dinner meausred out and handed to them so they dont become big and sloppy ..it goes with the amount of energy they put out..to get good meat. of course rabbits are judged on meat quality seeming thats their basic purpose..
anyhow alot of the people who are successful breeders and have their fish primed..they also breed far better etc.
the german fish who grow big..they have it in their genetics im sure. im sure you cant get a little san marah and make it into a dinner plate fish.
the reflections..who grow big..they came from a line of those standing 8's etc
i have a friend who only feeds bloodworms with vitamins added. his fish are all healthy and thick. but again..routine. he changes 5 gallons a day..his tank is spotless and he drops in a few worms at a time often.

[pcsb23]

Hi all,
How do you Build a Champion Discus?

Dedication.

[tony1313]

IME, 4 key elements to growing out a big thick healthy discus are;

1) quality water
2) lots of room to move (a nice big tank, not over crowded)
3) a varied diet (live, frozen & dry foods)
4) and of course starting out with quality stock

:D

[White Worm]

Mike I hear they have a new Bow flex out...It comes with Non-abrasive neoprene loops designed to gently but firmly cradle the Pectorial fins of Discus..

It is completely made from Titanium and high grade stainless steel so as to tolerate the most acidic waters...

I hear its all the rage today...There was an infomercial about it yesterday on the Discus Channel.:)

-al

Thanks! The was a good laugh for the morning :D . You watch the discus channel also? I already have a call in to Billy Blanks for some personal Tae Bo training because you can never trust those infomercials :D I am however designing a physical therapy device for discus with swim bladder problems....a sorta harness with training wheels experiment. :p

[White Worm]

heh I can see the headlines now - "Discus Champion Mike Thrown out of Competition for Doping Breech"

err, wait....I did see that headline! http://www.abc.net.au/sport/content/200408/s1184357.htm

I knew I could count on you Tim. I'm surprised I didnt see you over on the "Name this Discus" thread. Good thing they dont test for "Health Enhancing Supplements" in discus competitions yet. :D

[Harriett]

I wonder How does Stendeker get his fish so big? How do these overseas breeders produce so many fish?
trade secrets?????

I talked to Jorge Stendkar for a couple hours about this at the ACA. Here is what he told me regarding your question:
First of all, his brother (the mechanical/ material engineer of their operation) built in water change system that allows for virtually a 24 hour a day water change--it's continous; Nitrate levels remain preposterously high and this has not been a health issue, due to the feeding schedules and the density of fish per tank--I don't remember the density of fish/gal but it was wild--like about 1-2 g/fish or something?
He has his own vet to oversee health concerns; he imports no stock from outside his own hatcheries (?) so no disease is brought in--his hatcheries are pristine in hygiene and the fish stay clean.
He pays his employees way above the going rate of compensation and benefits; as a result they are dedicated, thorough, and careful.
When fry are free swimming, they are fed a bath of BBS so dense that they can't NOT be eating, every hour or two, continously.
When they are big enough to eat BH, they are switched and fed every couple hours for 6 or 8 feedings (I don't remember) daily. They eat ONLY BH. The beefheart is brught in by the ton every couple days. Stendkar has a butcher that has been working with him for 20 years I think, who deveins and cuts the beefheart into chunks (at lightening speed) for feeding.
He said he owns like 2/3 of the german market in discus and some amazingly high ratio of the larger European market.
He said many breeders have huge issues with his production methods but they are successful, developed by his father and fine turned continuously by his brother and himself, and he has big fat strong healthy discus. He has several warehouse style buildings which have 2000 tanks each I believe he said? and he was in construction for 2 more buildings at the time of the ACA. Some of my details may be marginally off but this was the gist of it. He personally oversees everything--he works 7 days a week, about 16 hours a day and has for years. He was a really nice man and lovely to talk with--he was totally present, down to earth, unassuming.
I bought some 2+" blue PBs from him which are doing quite well. They are very active and curious and absolutely the most aggressive eaters I have ever seen. They eat more food at a meal than I have ever seen, and are begging for more food 2 hours later. They are really being fun. Getting prettier by the week, too.
I was stunned for a million reasons.
Harriett

[brewmaster15]

Hi Harriet,
Thanks for that write up...that a Fine Job of unofficial reporting !:) Its also a nice glimpse into a major breeders methods.:)

-al

[Alan]

Yes, start with quality stock. It's a must for any breeding program. Unfortunately, not many people here (in the US) want to spend the moola on quality stock. Why is it expensive? Only about 10% from a batch of fry will be big enough (as in grow faster than the others) and have the right shape. Out of that 10%, a smaller number will have the right color, right eye-size, etc. Note however, that discus breeding is not similar to dog breeding. Breeding dogs is more selective when you get litters averaging 3-7 (so you really have to choose the parents, look at the pedigree, and do a lot of research) compared to 150-300 frys and you can cull.

Understandably, the Asian breeders don't want to sell top of the line quality LSS's to North America. Exporting fish is the main source of their business. Competition means no more main source means end of the line for their livelihood. (I know for a fact that some Malaysian hobbyists can buy a very nice looking LSS for about a nickel - US currency converted. Some are even given away. Although, the big-time breeders don't sell locally - to their own country. I also haven't heard from any American willing enough to shelve out $10k for a fish.) From the breeders' standpoint, it's still a business and you don't want to lose the edge.

It's also good to note that a champion fish is not necessarily a breeder.

Color-feeding is also an issue. It is artificial for the fish even if it's from natural sources... and there's a good chance the fish's internals are damaged. So... do we wait for the Bonds strain to beat Aaron? :D

For those with limited funds, great water conditions and feed, feed, feed them frys! CBW's are ideal but expensive. BH is the best alternative. Growing frys do need the protein from these sources to get big.

[steve.ryall]

...

[Timbo]

to get very large fish to seperate the males and females as they mature to allow for uninterupted growth

Hi Rod!

thats interesting and something i hadnt heard before but it makes sense.

i have a group of ng gcse's i'm growing out (10 months old, 5"- 5.5") and i may give that a try once they start gettin in the mood. i've seen it in my BD's....they drastically cut back what they eat for days on end when they are spawning, but i didnt come to my (alleged) mind that their growth pattern would be affected.

very interesting! do any of keepers/breeders here practice separating out males from females once they wanna start spawning?

[pcsb23]

very interesting! do any of keepers/breeders here practice separating out males from females once they wanna start spawning?

Just done this with my albinos, didn't want them to spawn just yet, I knew it set the females back, seems their energies go into egg production. At least I think I got the females :) never have been any good at guessing the sexes too well.

[Squiggy]

I used to seperate males and females...but I did it for breeding puposes, not growth. It allowed me to choose better pairings...

Joe

[sleonard]

I have two young females that I have seperated for this very reason but they keep laying eggs anyway and still don't eat much.

As to the original question, it's 95% + genetics. Keep selecting for size and many generations later you will have swimming dinner plates.

Scott