F1's

[steve.ryall]

I was just wondering what would make a fish an 'F1' ? I have 2 Red Diamnds, as some might know, now, if they produce fry will the fry be F1's?
Or do you have to go back further in time to get F1's, I mean further back towards the original parents, grand parents, great great grand parents?

Hope that makes sense ;)

Steve

[LizStreithorst]

I'd always thought that sibling to sibling produced F1's. If I've been wrong, please someone tell me.

[pcsb23]

I'll probably get this all wrong but here goes anyway :)

My understanding is that the parents are F0, the fry are then F1's, fry from these fry are F2's and so on. Example I have some F1 wild scalare's on eggs, their fry will be F2's (I think:confused: )

[lhforbes12]

Wilds (as in wild from the Amazon) are F0, their spawn would be F1
Fx does not apply to domesticated fish, they are too far removed from being wild fish.

[Tony_S]

Fx does not apply to domesticated fish, they are too far removed from being wild fish.

IMO....this is correct. BUT... For all intensive purposes, it can be, and is commonly used for domestic breeding programs providing the domestic parents(F-Zero's) are of different 'blood'.

Tony

[kaceyo]

I had always thought it was as Liz said. I have crossed a Leopardskin with a Maze leopard. But I won't get an F1 untill I breed fry-bro to fry-sis from those parents that are of different lineage. Beyond that I'm lost. Or was I lost before I even started, lol?

Kacey

[lhforbes12]

I had always thought it was as Liz said. I have crossed a Leopardskin with a Maze leopard. But I won't get an F1 untill I breed fry-bro to fry-sis from those parents that are of different lineage. Beyond that I'm lost. Or was I lost before I even started, lol?

Kacey

Kacey,
My reply is the only technically correct one, although I do agree with Tony, so... uh... yeah you were already lost

[Squiggy]

While F0 is generally accepted as wilds, any time you begin a breeding program to develope or fix a strain, the original cross is considered F0....However, for them to qualify as F0, they must each be of a fixed strain (true breeding)....Otherwise, you'll have a lot of throwbacks...

Thats my understanding, anyway...:D

Joe

[Kindredspirit]

I had always thought it was as Liz said. I have crossed a Leopardskin with a Maze leopard. But I won't get an F1 untill I breed fry-bro to fry-sis from those parents that are of different lineage. Beyond that I'm lost. Or was I lost before I even started, lol?

Kacey




I am lost too Kacey! My question is tho....can not one just say they bred fry-bro to fry-sis? How can anyone prove that? I am guessing by what the end result wld be .....? It seems to me that there can be quite a bit of ....mis-truths....in a breeding program?

Or not ~


Marie ~ http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/29/29_2_15.gif

[Ed13]

The way I see it is that F0 are the begininig of a breeding program(doesn't matter if their wild or domestic) in other words no F0 untill there is an F1;) (the offspring of F0), you follow the sequence in the order dictated by the previous F-cross with the main point being that it has to be a cross from the breeding program, for example F3 are the cross from a F2 with either with either of F0, F1, F2. If you cross F2 with new blood from someone elses stock or wild the you start a new breeding program making F2 and the wild both F0 and their offspring F1 from a new line. Hope I explained myself clearly:o This is how I beleive it is, or it should be :p

The reality is that people just acquire a wild fish, name their offspring F1 and no matter if they add new blood just keep going F2, F3, F4 and so on

[steve.ryall]

Ok then, going back to my original question, even though my fish, both red diamonds, and not sure of linage, would the offspring be F1's?
Sorry, thick moment.

Steve :confused:

[Tony_S]

Ok then, going back to my original question

LOL! It's easy to get lost in Mendelian Genetics...all I have to do is walk through the door!:D

Back to your question....

More than likely not Steve....the reason I say that is, I'm speculating that the Red Diamonds you have in your possession are more than likely from the same spawn??? Brother and sister??
If so....they are already more than likely 'F' whatever? If they are...their offspring would be 'F' whatever...+1.
Another way to put it....the only way offspring from these two discus could be considered F1's is IF....the parents (your Red Carnations) were from two completely different blood lines.

If they were, and are from two different blood lines....and you wanted to start a breeding program...to say....Improve body shape, color, striations etc. The two parent discus from DIFFERENT bloodlines that you brought together would be considered 'P' THEIR OFFSPRING would be considered 'F1'. If you were to take those F1's and grow them out and allow them to pair off, or 'force pair' two of them (both F1's)...their offspring would be considered F2....and so on. Anytime...anywhere along the line 'new' blood is introduced, you start all over again.

Tony

PS...
Try Googling 'Filial Generations'...You'll have more info than you ever wanted!! LOL!! Wikipedia has some good info on it as well.

[brewmaster15]

This genetics article explains it well...

http://lifesci.rutgers.edu/~mcguire/Toolbox-Demo/Crosses/F1%20cross/f1_crosses-Toolbox.htm


The F stands for filial...meaning....

Adj.1.filial - designating the generation or the sequence of generations following the parental generation genetic science (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/genetic+science), genetics (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/genetics) - the branch of biology that studies heredity and variation in organisms
parental (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/parental) - designating the generation of organisms from which hybrid offspring are produced
2.filial - relating to or characteristic of or befitting an offspring; "filial respect" parental (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/parental), paternal (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/paternal), maternal (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/maternal) - relating to or characteristic of or befitting a parent; "parental guidance"

source..http://www.thefreedictionary.com/filial

[steve.ryall]

Thanks Tony, Al, the fog is now lifting. Quite an interesting subject already.

Steve :)

[kaceyo]

Thanks guys. Overnight my breeding program has advanced to F1 offspring. At least in my mind it has. Thanks for clearing that up. And since the fry have, in my opinion, better spotting than either of the parents, I'll call it a succesful step forward.

Kacey

[Cosmo]

Kaceyo for October Spotlight... spread the word :)

[kaceyo]

OK Jim.
That will be enough of that!!! While I really do appreciate the vote of confidence, misplaced though it may be, I don't belong on the list along side the more knowledgable, well known and respected people that have been nominated.
Again, I do thank you for the nomination, and it is an ego booster, but lets stop the campaign here.
Now, back to the F1 thread already in progress...;)

[pcsb23]

OK Jim.
That will be enough of that!!! While I really do appreciate the vote of confidence, misplaced though it may be, I don't belong on the list along side the more knowledgable, well known and respected people that have been nominated.
Again, I do thank you for the nomination, and it is an ego booster, but lets stop the campaign here.
Now, back to the F1 thread already in progress...;)

mmmm another one under estimating themselves I think.

Well I won't be having any F2 angels just yet, they ate the eggs, always next time :)

I found the links useful, never did know what the F stood for, and I didn't do graet in genetics when at school (oh so long ago).

[CliffsDiscus]

I was just wondering what would make a fish an 'F1' ? I have 2 Red Diamnds, as some might know, now, if they produce fry will the fry be F1's?
Or do you have to go back further in time to get F1's, I mean further back towards the original parents, grand parents, great great grand parents?

Hope that makes sense ;)

Steve

Steve,
You may have the F1's(first generation) but the previous breeder(s) may have already bred
this Discus serveral generations, especially if it a true Red Diamond from Lo Wing Yat's, this was back dated since the early 90's.

Cliff