SOFT WATER = SLOW GROWTH

[Elite Aquaria]

In most cases this would not be a delema. I have very soft tap water :D or is it :(. Although soft water is great for breeding it is not good for raising young discus fry to adulthood.

My tap water is around 120 uS which is about 80 ppm. Great I do not need an RO Unit. However, I am currently focusing on obtaining new stock for my breeding program. So the focus is not on breeding at this time but rather grow out.

Until I finish my well I need to add some trace elements back into my tap water. The problem is that in the past I have always just added tap water back into my RO water to reconstitute my RO water. So I have no experience using any of these chemicals.

I have done some research on the following products:

Sera Mineral Salts
Seachems Equalibrium
Kent RO Right (seems like Kent Trace Elements must be used in addition)
Kent Trace Elements

My question is which one would yeild the best results if my goal is to maximize growth on my young fry.

Dan

[lhforbes12]

You need "tap water" and "none" choices.

[Elite Aquaria]

You need "tap water" and "none" choices.

lhforbes12,

Thanks for the reply but I do not think you read my post. The issue is that my tap water is too soft...

Dan

[Graham]

Dan I think what Larry is trying to tell you is that your water is fine just the way it is. Generally speaking, a GH up to 60ppm is considered soft...60 to 100 or so is slightly hard and so on. Water coming out of an RO wil be down in the 10ppm range or lower

One of the main things that baby fish want is calcium for bone and scale development...that's very easily upped by adding a bit of calcium chloride...

G

[pcsb23]

I do not know where this soft water = slow growth myth comes from. Frankly it is BS.

Poor husbandry = slow/poor growth.

[lhforbes12]

I agree with Graham. I also think that trying to make your water harder is counter-productive. Wild discus are often found in waters with virtually no GH, surprisingly (tongue firmly in cheek) their young do just fine. 80 ppm water is NOT that soft to begin with, you are still soft but bordeirng on moderately hard. If it were my water I wouldn't do anything to it most likely. The only reason I am even hedging is because I don't know what your Ca or Mg is. My best reply is "don't do anything to your water unless you need to".

[kaceyo]

As Graham says, calcium chloride is really all you need. A good cheep source is something like Prestone's "Heat" which is an ice melter for driveways. Make sure you don't get a salt based ice melter or a blend. You can also get cal. chloride from "Earths Tongue", an online outfit that uses it to dry mushrooms.
I also add magnesium sulphate (Epsom salt) at 1 part to 4parts calcium.

Kacey

[Elite Aquaria]

lhforbes12, I see what you were saying now...thanks

pcsb23, Well Jack Wattley was the one that personally told me that growth can be inhibited by soft water. If it is a myth or not I have no clue since I am not a scientist. For all I know it may be a bunch of BS. That was why I asked the question in the first place.

How large should an 8 month old fish be on average?

Dan

[pcsb23]

pcsb23, Well Jack Wattley was the one that personally told me that growth can be inhibited by soft water. If it is a myth or not I have no clue since I am not a scientist. For all I know it may be a bunch of BS. That was why I asked the question in the first place.

How large should an 8 month old fish be on average?

Dan

Dan, I am not one to go against what JW said, but I have raised discus in water as soft, if not softer than your tap water, in fact I would commit serious crimes to get tap water with your basic properties. Most fishes mineral intake is via food, they do not "drink" as such. Considering discus come from water with one tenth the conductivity of your tap water yet still grow to good sizes I think says all that needed to be said. Others may, and probably will disagree, but my personal experiences and readings tell me water hardness per se has little bearing on growth.

As for how big an 8 month old discus should be, that depends on strain to some degree, a lot on genetics, and a lot on care. Given an average growth rated strain with decent genetics and good care then around 4.5" SL to 5" SL
would not be unreasonable. You have to bear in mind that fish, like people, have different growth rates even within species.

I have some Red Diamonds, one of which has only reached around 4.75", its male and now is more than 2 years old. Its got great shape (one of the best shapes I've seen in fact) has fathered fry and is a healthy strong fish, its just small. One of its siblings is just a tad over 6" SL. Both have had the identical upbringing.

What I will say about "soft" water is that you have significantly less margin for error. The only aspect of soft water that needs to be of concern are trace minerals, these are in fact far more imprtant than the basic minerals such as Ca etc..

A good balanced diet will ensure that the fish get all of the basic building blocks, allied with good clean water and high water quality (ie lots of w/c's) you will give your fish the best possible start in life.

Even the best care cannot compensate for low quality stock.

[Elite Aquaria]

pcsb23,

The reason for my question was to draw on the resources like yourself to give me real life experiences. Like with the debate over Gabes breeding or importing.

I just checked my bank statement and I realize that I was wrong about the age of my fish. I purchased the Marlboro Reds on July 28. The breeder said that they were about 3-4 months of age. That makes my fish between 6-7 months old.

I just measured them and they are 3.5" - 4" SL. They were growing great then I stopped feeding CBW for about 4-5 weeks. I started up with the CBW again and I have added two new flake foods, Formula One and Omega one Chiclid flake (this mix 4x day in auto feeder). I also feed 1 feeding of beef heart and tetra bits.

So do I have poor growth or is this about right?

Dan

[pcsb23]

I would say that the growth rate is acceptable. They can grow too quickly as well as too slowly. Marlys from good genetic backgrounds are robust fish.

The food you feed them is good to imo, although I have no direct experience with cbw.

[lhforbes12]

Dan,
I agree with Paul. Your fish are right on schedule for healthy, well cared for discus.

[korbi_doc]

;) Although I have no fish at the moment, I have in the past had an experience with this question/problem.....Had young discus in a 125g tank & put in a new crew of a dozen young B. rams...don't remember exactly what the readings were at the time (ppms), but it was soft, under 100 I think, was using R/O cuz Atlantic city water is the pits....anyway after 8-10 weeks, I learned an important lesson; the rams developed severely deformed spines, obvious to the even non fish ppl; & they never even attempted to breed when older: they were normal when they arrived....the discus did not develop curved spines that I could see, (could've been minor) but did not grow to potential....their feeding program included cbws, H bws, tetrabits, H bits, Wattley BH, etc.....thereafter, I used the recipe that Joe S. recommended to reconstitute my water to a range of 300-350ppms...calcium sulfate: magnesium sulfate: calcium chloride, in ratio 3:1:1.....I feel strongly that these fish need these trace elements for good bone growth, & if they're not present, we need to supplement them.....even my horses & young dogs get supplements, why not our fish????? JME, others may not agree....& I sure do agree that starting out with good quality stock is VIP......... Dottie ;)

[brewmaster15]

HI Dan,
In the wild a discus lives in soft water ...softer than yours... It breeds in it and grows in it well....

If I remember correctly Jack Wattley didn't say that discus grew slow in soft water.. The observations he did determined that they grew Faster in hard water... thats not the same as saying that softwater = Slow growth.


Soft water doesn't mean slow growth... . But Theres a difference to note between the soft water in the Amazon and The soft water in a tank of FRY.. Volumes of clean water being changed and amount of food/protein being fed.. I think these are critical to normal development.


If you believe that minerals added to the water can be taken up by the fish, as I Do, by the gill surface ( documented in many species of fish) Then adding calcium to the water may be a benefit... and as graham mentioned calcium chloride is what I would add.

hth,
al

[Jazz]

Hello everyone, what would be the ideal dosage for "Calcium Chloride" in a fry tank?

Thank you

Jazz

[April]

my water is about 0 hardness. my fish grow well with lots of wcs. you can use nothing and get away with it as long as you do the wcs. or it slides in ph fast. i use aragonite now..to buffer and it works well . my babies grew well and very round with it. simple is best..or ice melter as kaceyo says. he has soft water also. just make sure you dont get ph bounces with adding stuff. or they will be constantly stressed going up and down with each wc.
i vote none or aragonite. i used "the mix" and all the other bought stuff. thats costly..and the mix made my ph go up too much.
for babies now i just add tons of aragonite to the storage bucket and i have some in the tanks. no ph switches adding soft water into the tank..and very easy.

[Graham]

April argonite is a form of calcium carbonate....so there your source of calcium for fry development.

I'm surprised that your reading 0ppm GH with that in the water...while calcium carbonate is very slow to dissolve at higher pH's it should have no problem in low pH discus water and low dissolved Ca levels :bandana:

Liquid drop type test or electronic meter???

G

[pcsb23]

Just keep up with w/c when growing out fry and all will be well. The key is always in the husbandry.

[CARY_GLdiscus]

well said brew + Paul!

[April]

Graham. my water is 0 hardness before the aragonite. hence adding the aragonite. : )

[Graham]

:antlers: seniors moment

[Elite Aquaria]

HI Dan,
If I remember correctly Jack Wattley didn't say that discus grew slow in soft water.. The observations he did determined that they grew Faster in hard water... thats not the same as saying that softwater = Slow growth.


Al,

I remenber visiting Jack back in the early 90's when he was still breeding his fish and we were talking about the challenges of Ft Lauderdale city water. He specificly told me to make sure that my water was not to soft for the fish I was purchasing. At the time I had never checked my water so I had no clue. Either way I like your statment better...Hard Water Speeds up growth rate...That is what I want..:D

Anyway I added two cap fulls of Kents Discus elements to my 40 breeder tank and it did not move the needle more than 20 uS. I do not plan on using this in future because I will need to sell all my stock to keep up with the cost.

Dan