Best way to add discus to my tank?

[drivel111]

Hello discus aficionados!:)

I have some questions about adding discus to my tank. Here's the story.
I recently upgraded to a 50 gal. tall tank.(36LX25HX15D) from a 29gal. I had 3 discus- 2 were about 3 inches, 1 about 2 1/4. About 3 weeks after the switch, one of the 3 inchers died (I only had him about 3 months). I suspected he had hex, tried treating with metro twice in 2 weeks, apparently didnt work. The other 3 incher is now 3 1/2 ish and fast approaching 4 inches.(i've had him and the 2 inch about 6 mos.) he seems to be doing extremely well. The funny thing is the 2 incher is the same size, hasnt grown. I think his growth may have been stunted as I got both of these at the same time and at almost same size. he generally doesnt look great, he might have fin rot too.
:)
Anyway, my tank is planted, with flourite substrate. I also have 11 rasboras, 2 cory cats, 1 gold spot pleco, 1 bushy nose pleco (baby), 1 flying fox, and 1 small snail named Gary.
I do a 25% water change twice weekly, and my parameters are good.
I am looking to add some discus, I was thinking 3 or 4 more. My question is how to introduce them into the tank. The bigger of the two discus I have now has always been pretty dominant, he doesnt bite, just chases.
I know i need to QT the new ones first, but was wondering if it would be beneficial to set up a hosp. tank to put the original 2 in and treat before just in case hex or something is still lurking somewhere. Also, if i do that, should i put all fish, new and old, in the same QT tank and treat them all at the same time?
Any advice would be greatly appreciated,
Mark

[ahmad]

HI.

1 - Although you have 2 Discus Fish and other kinds in your aquarium, you can only add one more Discus of size 3 Inches.

2 - With respect to your two inch, you need to feed it with fresh food like Blood Worm for several times a day.

3 - As for hex, I recommend that you add MILAFEX when you introduce a fish to the tank, and it is not necessary to separate the fish and make sure of its health.

4 - Now as for your bigger fish and its attitude of chasing, you can change this behavior by introducing fish of the same kind and size to your tank. If it still acted aggressively, try to move it to another tank for a week and then get it back to the original tank.


Thank you

Ahmad

[t_j]

HI.



4 - Now as for your bigger fish and its attitude of chasing, you can change this behavior by introducing fish of the same kind and size to your tank. If it still acted aggressively, try to move it to another tank for a week and then get it back to the original tank.


Thank you

Ahmad


By taking that fish out and putting him in another tank is not going to stop him from chasing this is a new tank setup for these fish and the fish will not stop until there done with the pecking order. I would say try turning the lights off of the tank for awhile but you have plants so I'm not sure of that.

I would not put any more fish in it sounds like you are at your max already but this is just my opinion.

[ahmad]

Dear t_j.

By putting the bigger fish alone in another tank, we are changing the environment and by putting it back in the original tank after a week, it would feel that it is an intruder to a new environment, therefore, it will act in a calm way.

Thanks

Ahmad

[White Worm]

Dear t_j.

By putting the bigger fish alone in another tank, we are changing the environment and by putting it back in the original tank after a week, it would feel that it is an intruder to a new environment, therefore, it will act in a calm way.

Thanks

Ahmad
Thats pretty funny. I would have to disagree. Discus will change their behavior and aggession in a heart beat depending on what is in the tank. They dont care where they are but who is with them. If you remove a fish and add the fish back, it will start the process all over again. I have noticed that some discus dont like some other discus no matter what you do.
I guess it could happen either way but there are certainly no guarantees and it will most likely fail more times than succeed....they are cichlids.

[ahmad]

Thats pretty funny. I would have to disagree. Discus will change their behavior and aggession in a heart beat depending on what is in the tank. They dont care where they are but who is with them. If you remove a fish and add the fish back, it will start the process all over again. I have noticed that some discus dont like some other discus no matter what you do.
I guess it could happen either way but there are certainly no guarantees and it will most likely fail more times than succeed....they are cichlids.



Dear Mikscus,

I truly respect your opinion.
I just read an article once written by Mr. Jack Wattley. He is worldwide the most recognized name in discuss breeding.
His article was posted in "Tropical Fish Hobbyist", July 2005, under the column "Ask Jack". In that article, there was a similar problem to drivel111's problem.

Thanks

Ahmad

[White Worm]

Dear Mikscus,

I truly respect your opinion.
I just read an article once written by Mr. Jack Wattley. He is worldwide the most recognized name in discuss breeding.
His article was posted in "Tropical Fish Hobbyist", July 2005, under the column "Ask Jack". In that article, there was a similar problem to drivel111's problem.

Thanks

Ahmad
Hi Ahmad. Yeah I've heard of Mr Wattley once or twice ;)
I certainly wouldnt argue with Big Jack but I read a good article which I think explains it better than I could. :)

Often we ask "Why are they fighting?". Well, the answers are fairly simple. There are many reasons for this behavior and every one of them is totally natural. You can even see this behavior in humans. It is noticed in social creatures. It is a survial and higherarchy instictinctive pattern. Yes, there is a pattern to this maddness :).

Lets first draw a senerio. You have three fish of the same species in one aquarium. There may be other types of fish in there with them or they may be alone. Of these three fish, the one that is the healthiest, strongest or the one that is in heat, will assume the dominant role. Most often the dominant fish of the three is the largest. However, that is not always the case. Sexual maturity in adults does play a role. But in young fish, it is often the reasons as stated above.

The next in line is the second healthiest and largest one that may be closer in maturity then the last one. The third one in this chain is the one that gets the most beatings from the others. It may be a passive fish by nature and obviously weaker then the other two for reasons above. Unfortunately, it dis-likes the ranking that was chosen for it and will often show this unhappiness by hiding, not eating, etc.

The chain happens like this. The most dominant will chase the middle one (if they are not a breeding pair), the middle one then will bite the third one. Sometimes the dominant fish will attack the third one too. There is nothing for this lowest ranking one to take it's anger out on, so it hides as a result.

Dominance roles can switch however. It will change if you remove one or more fish, it will also change when they become sexually mature or add another fish. It also happens when aquarium decorations are moved around or added, etc. The pecking order then starts over each time something like this is done or happens. So there is no reason unless a life is endangered to remove fish. The pecking order will just re-establish itself again. However, alot of times, the pecking order is reduced when more fish are added. The less space the fish have and the more fish they have to choose from, the less one particular fish will get attacked. There will be many to fight with for the position of "head of the tank". So less time on each fish during an attack is made. We are not going to get into pairing behavior which can cause severe attacks.

A pecking order may change for several reasons not associated with changes made by you by adding or subtracting fish, changing decor, etc. It may happen because of sexuall maturity, one fish may become ill, there may be a pair forming which makes a passive fish more aggressive, one fish down near the bottom of the order may of went into heat, etc. When a fish becomes ill, it usually is pushed to the end of the rank even if it was a dominant one before. This is if the other fish are all healthy. Sometimes when a fish is no longer in heat and did not find a mate, it is once again judged and may be pushed down the chain to a lower ranking. Also, a sick fish that has become well again may fight with other fish until it has gone as far up the pecking order as it possibly can once again holding it's position. These things are examples of why the pecking order fighting never seems to stop totally. It is a matter of who gets to be king (or queen) of the clan. If one lets up and feels it is established enough to put it's guard down, it may be conquered. An old fish may get over run by a young fish of the same sex.

The pecking order is a social thing and goes on until all are paired or all are too old to fight. It may get more subtle as these fish get older or may not. It depends on the situation, the tank setup, diet, and many more factors.

Ever hear someone say " Don't just put less then three discus (or fish) in a species tank. Try to start with at least 5...". Agressive fish will take every chance to conquer a tankmate if they are not looking to pair up. Sometimes they may even do this to another fish that does not want to breed. All this quote is stating is someone's suggestion on how many of a given species is a good number to divert aggression. There is no way anyone can ever stop the pecking order unless we all keep one fish per tank. That is uneconomical and may cause stress on that fish (depending on what type of fish it is) and it may stop eating. Even though fish fight due to this pecking order, some fish (like discus), still like to be in the company of other fish (discus). When they are alone even with other types of fish in the tank, they may hide alot, not eat, get sick easy, etc.

There hopefully are studies being made on why fish want to drive others away yet want to be social. I am not talking about when they are looking for a mate, what I mean is in normal everyday situations. Possibly the pecking order is a tool used for the purpose of trying to drive away fish that are not up to par to someday spawn and it is their way of natural selection. Just like our instincts and teachings. We play and do what kids do. Yet, each thing we do as kids is a role play for when we are adults. Maybe just like Tigers, etc, the fish uses the pecking order the weed out inferior ones and start this hierarchy fighting when they are young to prepare them to fight when they are ready to find a mate.

However if we look at why there is a such thing as a pecking order, one thing is clear. This is a natural thing that happens and the fish need to do this. It is in there genes to establish ranks. Should we let this go on in our tanks then? Yes and no. No since the weaker one cannot swim away from the danger as in nature if it's very life is threatened. Yes if there is no real damage being done as in the weaker one hiding, not eating, etc. No if there is a hyperdominant fish and never outgrows an abnormally aggressive attitude. Yes if there is aggression beacause of a fish searching for the right mate (as long as no fish's life is threatened). Yes if you want to select certain traits for a breeding program. Yes because it is natural behavior. No if the fish are relentless with the fighting. Yes if a pair is defending a territory. The list can go on and on. You need to use your own judgement. The reasons all depend on your fish, tank setup, how many fish are in the tank and what kinds, if there is a threat of death in the tank, etc. Try to figure out why the fighting is the way it is. Could it be a pair has formed? Could it be that the weak one is sick? Relentless fighting above the normal hierarchy fighting could give you an indication something is different in the tank or amiss.

Be careful in how you judge fighting. There is outright aggression and rank fighting. The pecking order usually happens in a pattern. When there are no pairs in the tank, one starts, then the other bites the next one down or any fish under his ranking and so on. When there is a pair in the tank, they both will fight any fish that may come near them or their food. This type of fighting is common at feeding time and may subside when the food is gone. Spread the food out to resolve this.

Outright aggression however, is a fish that beats on any fish all the time without stopping. It's main mission in life is to do away with the others. This may be a hyperdominant fish or one that is looking to set up a territory. If it does cause damage to other fish, try removing him for a time. See if another takes it's rank and acts out with the same aggression. It could be just the species and how they deal with the pecking order. If another takes a dominant role yet is not as aggressive as the one removed, then this fish may be abnormally aggressive. A pecking order is not usually persistant and will subside for short or long times before starting back up again. When a new fish is added, notice how all the fish fight in a certain pattern. This is a pecking order.

It is up to you as a hobbyist to learn how to judge between agressive behavior and ranking. It is up to you to do all you can to stop the fish from seriously damaging each other.

Study your fish. Learn their behavioral patterns. Each species is different. Once you can spot rank fighting, you will soon learn when agression arises that is not normal. It is then when something should be done.

[White Worm]

Had 3 discus.....3 weeks..... one died..... 2 left about 6 mos......one doing extremely well....other is the same size, hasnt grown. Definately one is the aggressor or dominant fish here and they are probably not a pair. I'll bet that when you arent looking or at feeding time, the dominant one doesnt let the other eat much and probably tortures the smaller one relentlessly.


I think his growth may have been stunted as I got both of these at the same time and at almost same size. he generally doesnt look great, he might have fin rot too.
I would put a seperator in tank until you up the numbers. You may see improvement with the little one.


1 small snail named Gary.
I like it!


I am looking to add some discus, I was thinking 3 or 4 more.
Yes, 3 or 4 would be fine and watch your water quality. Adjust water changes as needed. I would also shoot for newbies at similar size.


I know i need to QT the new ones first, but was wondering if it would be beneficial to set up a hosp. tank to put the original 2 in and treat before just in case hex or something is still lurking somewhere. Also, if i do that, should i put all fish, new and old, in the same QT tank and treat them all at the same time?

With the 2 seperated and the 4 new ones in there own QT for 3-6 weeks, you should be able to see any problems arise. I wouldnt mix new and old because your new ones might be perfectly healthy and your old ones could bring something in (or vise versa). You will be able to sort that out during a good QT period. If the old ones show signs of sickness, remove them into their own QT and treat them. JMO

[drivel111]

Wow, thanks so much for your thorough reply!! You're probably right about the dominant one picking on the other when Im not looking, I'll get a separator asap. I haven't yet got new ones, but when I do I'll make sure to QT.
Do you have a QT/Hospital tank set up and running at all times, or just when a problem occurs or adding new fish do you set it up?
Thanks again Mikscus, and everyone else who gave their advice. :)

[PINKY]

I would setup QT / Hospital tank when and if you need it.

[korbi_doc]

:D Pretty good article Mike.....
Just to show how this "pecking order" is a normal but problem behavior, I have 2 examples...
Have just moved to Tn with my Doberman & horses...my friend has a standard poodle, & added a new pup, also st. p. before I got here...now we have the big "3"....my dobe hated the pup, snarls, growls & attacked her often, as did the older poodle....dobe & the older poodle have lived together for yrs, but the pup is an intruder...getting better lately as she grows, now accepted, lol...& to think I want a pup soon too..Korbi will not like that, lol...
Now to my major problem, the horses...2 older, 13 & 7yrs; younger 3 yr old....tough pecking order, here just 3 mos, & the older horses decided that they could effectively dominate the 3 yr old, who is a big horse BTW, they've chased her, beaten her up & thrown her out of her stall to finish her food....she now has lost so much wt, I have to lock her in to eat....(she was an orphan, raised by humans & this can be a contributing factor also)....separation is the only answer here..
This behavior is normal, just problematical for us, 3 is a "terrible" #, Dottie ;)

[t_j]

Dear t_j.

By putting the bigger fish alone in another tank, we are changing the environment and by putting it back in the original tank after a week, it would feel that it is an intruder to a new environment, therefore, it will act in a calm way.

Thanks

Ahmad

IME I know this is not true because I have taken a fish out of my big tank and put it by itself in another tank for about a week. Once I put him back in to the big tank he went right after the same ones he always chaces.

[fishmama]

Hey Dottie-

I hear ya! Man, if we think fish aggression is problematic...wait until you experience the equine pecking order! We had Tennessee Walkers at one point. Brought in a new gelding, who was almost 17 hands. Got so bad that a stinkin' saddlebred mare forced him thru a fence and slashed his throat within the first day!!! Talk about vet bills..and of course these things always happen after hours and on holidays!

Lisa

[korbi_doc]

:( Holy Crow lisa! That was a nightmare! At least my 3yr old hasn't been badly injured, but these territorial/sexual aggression fights can be costly... early in my discus keeping, my first pair of blue snakes had such problems after raising babies once...the male was extremely aggressive, & because she wouldn't breed next time, he beat her up & killed her, then killed another before I realized how bad he was & had to isolate him in another tank...there are many such stories being told....Dottie ;)