Hormones?

[White Worm]

Do you know alot about them? How they are used? What they are? I hear alot of talk about not buying fish that are hormoned. I have really never seen actual proof of this practice. Has anyone seen this? Know for sure that someone uses or used this practice (not asking for any names) Any comments?
My Final question (after you answer the first ones) is do you feed beefheart?

[LizStreithorst]

OK. I know something about this but not a lot. I know someone in the US who has experimented with them.
Methyl Testerone is the usual hormone that is used. It brings out red. I think that if you want to bring out blue rather than red, you use a female hormone (not sure).
The party line on this is that breeders use the hormones in a low dose on two and a half inch to three inch fish. Supposedly, at this low dose the hormone does not damage the fish's liver. What the hormones do is bring out the adult colors in a baby fish by tricking it's body into thinking that it is an adult.
A while back I was breeding some "cutting edge" Discus. I wanted to cull the ones that didn't have potential early so that I could concentrate on the best. I contacted my friend who had experimented with the hormones as to how to obtain them. He told me where and how much they would cost. But when I said that I didn't want to damage the fish in the process he told me that if I used enough of the hormones to get results, the fish would be damaged in the process.
I decided not to do it.
If you want more info on how to obtain these poisons, pm me.

[LizStreithorst]

BTW. Yes, I do feed beef heart.

[brewmaster15]

Liz,
Is that Beef heart with or without bovine growth Hormones?:)...was that the next question Mike?:)

-al

[LizStreithorst]

:p :p :p :p :p, Brew. I only wish that I could do the sound affects with the tongue out smiley. You deserve it. :p :p :p :p . And yes, I will get into the bovine growth hormone thing if anyone wants me to.
Liz

[brewmaster15]

Mike,
This was a discussion held a year or two ago... I was on one of my anti-hormone rants...:bandana:

take a read when you get a chance...
http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?t=41055


-al

[White Worm]

Liz,
Is that Beef heart with or without bovine growth Hormones?:)...was that the next question Mike?:)

-al

Cant slip anything by you Al :D :D , I knew someone would catch it. Just curious if most people know that they are using hormones on most beef (cattle) in the US and thats why our beef has been banned in other countries for nearly 6 years. Probably not alot of beef out there that hasnt been hormoned by what I have read. Its all about getting them to market earlier with fast growth and the USDA doesnt regulate or test levels.
edit.....that is interesting reading (birth control pills, lol), I just think that most dont realize they are using hormones when feeding beef. Cant say 100% but surely a very high %. That post (Jan 05 was before my time here :))was pretty good reading. It is brave to admit hormoning fish when so many fish keepers look down on it. I wonder why these same people dont refuse to eat beef because it is hormoned?
I had just never actually heard of someone doing it.

[LizStreithorst]

OK Mike, Tomorrow I'll start a thread on growth hormone in beef cattle. The public at large doesn't understand how they work. You don't know as much as you think.

[brewmaster15]

Oh Brother...You openned a can o'ground beef up Mike!:D

Liz...I'm a BADDDD BOYYYYY!!;) looking forward to the discussion!:)

-al

[LizStreithorst]

What choice do I have? Y'all asked for it, right?

[White Worm]

OK Mike, Tomorrow I'll start a thread on growth hormone in beef cattle. The public at large doesn't understand how they work. You don't know as much as you think.
SHEESH!! Now Liz.......I wasnt trying to start a fight and I am certainly not a hormone or cattle expert here. Never said I knew alot, just questions. I will however partake in your discussion. I have read alot on the subject and I have looked at it from the animal lover / tree hugger view and the cattle breeder / market view. For most, not all, people in business, the world revolves around money and that is the bottom line. I look forward to your explanation of how hormones work when pertaining to beef / cattle and possible affects to those who consume it whether it be us or our fish. I do enjoy a whopper with cheese, no tomatoe :) No need to get uptight :p

[LizStreithorst]

I'm not a'fightin' Mike. You'll know when I decide to fight. I'll be banned.

[White Worm]

:D :D

[roclement]

Bring out the hormones! I want to pump you up!!!!
Man that is going to be a good thread!!!!

Rod

[fishmama]

Gosh...I'm going out to McDonald's right now!!!!!

Hope those hormones kick in!!!!!!!!!!!! Just in time for Christmas Cheer ;-)

Fishgrandma

[Polar_Bear]

I agree with Liz. However I was at a lecture given by Cary Strong and one of the topics was the use of hormones by breeders to do exactly what Liz was thinking of, mainly to find out how viable the cross was. I may be mistaken but I think he felt they should then be culled and the next batch grown out if it indeed turned out the the fry were good stock. Hopefully Cary will see this and correct any mistakes I may have made. I can certainly see a certain usefullness in doing this, especially when trying to create a new strain.

[CARY_GLdiscus]

99% of all discus sold are Juiced!

Either by a Natural way (depending what you consider is natural) And the Synthetic way!

The fact is sex sells around the world and so does COLOR in fish!

hth

Cary Gld!

[kaceyo]

The Natural way??? Could you explain that one Cary? BTW, good to see ya posting more.

Kacey

[Elcid]

Hi Mike:

Last year I did have one member pm me about my fish and questioned me about hormoning as he had purchased discus from the same source as me. He told me that his fish were misteriously dying one by one and he finally went to the vet. It was determined that his fish had liver damage possibly from hormoning but certainly it wasn't a definate conclusion.

The odd thing was that his fish were dying yet mine were not. I didn't believe that my care could be so good that I could prevent hormoned discus from dying. Anyway, I told him I have a pair form and hoping for success. What could I say? Then I came upon this article on the web:

http://www.haifeng.com/en/QA.htm

The important point to note is:

"Many artificial coloring fish food may enhance the colors of the fishes in a short period of time, but It's artificial ingredients may actually be very harmful for the liver of the fishes, and thus reduce the health of the fishes. Try to choose fish food with natural ingredients."

This lead me to believe that we can't just blame the breeder for selling us hormoned fish because we find our fish with liver damage a year down the road; maybe we ourselves are damaging the liver from what we feed.

I know most of you will doubt that color feeding is harmful when you see the success from all the major breeders and hobbiests but could it be that they do have dozens of fish die but they have such large quantities of fish they end up having a few that will survive to prove their theory to be correct when in fact they do not consider all those that have died?

It's kinda like that Pfizer drug that was pulled of this week that reminds me that you should look at the death rate and not the survival rate to determine whether your product is safe and for fishes and discus who is monitoring the death rate?

HTH,
Sandeep

[Dkarc@Aol.com]

The Natural way??? Could you explain that one Cary? BTW, good to see ya posting more.

Kacey

I believe he is refering to using natural astaxanthin (Naturose for example) and other products like spirulina powder.

-Ryan

[White Worm]

I believe he is refering to using natural astaxanthin (Naturose for example) and other products like spirulina powder.

-Ryan

I believe these are not synthetic or natural hormones. They are Carotenoids (natural fat-soluble pigments) Within animals, carotenoids provide bright coloration, serve as antioxidants, and can be a source for vitamin A activity.

[CARY_GLdiscus]

Thanks Ryan,

Sandeep!

As You know the liver is used to filter out toxins in the blood stream that are absorbed from the water that the discus are kept in. But if the water is kept at its highest Quality the damaged liver is not working as hard and the fish can live abit longer under greater care. But if the liver is damaged and water Quality is Poor then I can see why this could have very well happened.

hth
Cary Gld!

[CARY_GLdiscus]

Thats Kinda true Mike

what I was refearing to was Synthetic astaxanthin.It comes in almost every color.

PINK
BLUE
ORANGE
YELLOW ETC......

Hth
Cary gld

[White Worm]

Thanks Cary, I was looking at Natural as being testosterone, progesterone and estradiol.

Synthetic being bovine growth hormones, zeranol and trenbolone.
There are 2 types of hormones.....steroids (active when taken orally) and proteins (injected).

Color enhancers are mainly for external appearance.

[Elcid]

Cary!

It's so good to have you back :)

thanks,
Sandeep

[kaceyo]

Thanks Ryan,
I was thinking "a natural way of hormoning??? What could that be?" It was early (pre-caffiene) in the AM. I don't consider using NatuRose or spirolina as being "juiced".

Kacey