Okay...What Would YOU Do....

[Kindredspirit]

Since there are some discussion re the use of medications I am trying to learn...to go the best way on treatment...but not wait too long ~

Does that make sense? If anything discus have taught me patience:p

This will be hypothetical situation so ....I will throw out some symptoms and I would like to see what some or most of the members here would do if you notice these in your tank...: I know some more pertinent facts would be necessary but pl just play the game:)

1. You notice that all discus are eating but one ~ for the last two meals...he goes for the cube aggressively but...changes his mind and goes back to his little spot on the bottom of the tank....

2. You notice on a tank that some of your discus are a tad bit labored breathing and on one or two only one gill is opening...

Immediately would you assume flukes and treat?...What if you use lets say....PP and it improves but in a fews days you notice one of them not eating still but both gills are open...Formalin?

OR ~ just high heat and salt for a week?

3. You notice that one of your large discus keeps hiding behind the driftwood ...he does come out to eat but ultimately returns...he looks fine...

4. You notice that a group of your discus are just huddled...just looking sad....come up to eat but go back to the huddle ~ what would you do in this case? Wc and time?? Again?

What if that was your only sypmtoms?

I guess what I am looking for is that I want to know...what to do myself! What to do first and when to do it...I know that fresh water and salt or no salt..or high heat..and observe...is best ~

But for how long ~ I am not a patient person esp when one of my pets are not well ~


Thanks Guys ~ I do not know if I really got across what I am looking for ~ I could not think of any more hypothetical situations....feel free to throw some in there....


Marie ~ http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/29/29_5_2.gif

[Graham]

If It was Me.....................Assuming that all the water parameters checked out, and assuming that there were no obvious signs like inflammations or shredded fins etc............. I would net the fish and check for bacterial infections of the gills or even in mouth. I would then go and get the microscope and do a scrape...This would tell me if it was flukes or if I had another problem with a different parasite...most are easily Identified.

Then I would use an appropriate meds for that problem

Now since you don't have a scope I'd suggest treating with Prazi, safe and very effective against flukes, no water changes during the treatment period....after a few days if things didn't seem to improve then I use another shotgun ...F&MG, following the dosing protocol exactly.

Salt will not clear flukes so why bother using it

Did I follow your scenario

[Kindredspirit]

Did I follow your scenario


Yes.. yes Graham you did ~ I always like to read your opinion ~ I trust you ~ tell me something tho...knowing you the way I do...which is not much...you most certainly would know it was flukes before you netted and scoped the sample...yes? So ~ why stress out the fish with all that? Im thinking that there are probably dif parasites ~ therefore dif meds to use...nevermind...lol!!

Thank You Graham ~

But you didnt continue tho:( ....what if there were no symptoms of the gills and just huddled...but coming out to eat? Breathing okay...just completely forgot how to swim and be a fish! Poops normal....just sluggish and trippin!

Okay ~ there were no real symptoms...but you knew they were "off"...depressed ...not really swiming...not really eating much....and wc and salt..high heat ~ TIME... none of that works...what would be the next step?


Marie ~ http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/29/29_5_2.gif

[Graham]

Yes.. yes Graham you did ~ I always like to read your opinion ~ I trust you

Thank You

~ tell me something tho...knowing you the way I do...which is not much...you most certainly would know it was flukes before you netted and scoped the sample...yes?

No...The symptoms may indicate flukes and that would be the way i would be thinking, but until I do a scrape and scope I don't know for sure...I would be only guessing. Low level infestations of Ich, Costia, Chilodinella, Trichodina and Oodinium, mainly in the gills could cause the same symptoms.

If it was flukes in the Africans, I'd use Prazi...in the koi I'd use Supaverm....if it was any of the others I'd be using PP and or F&MG


So ~ why stress out the fish with all that? Im thinking that there are probably dif parasites ~ therefore dif meds to use...nevermind...lol!!

While it may stress the fish to some degree, they'll be a lot happier if I can figure out what the problem is

Thank You Graham ~

But you didnt continue tho ....what if there were no symptoms of the gills and just huddled...but coming out to eat? Breathing okay...just completely forgot how to swim and be a fish! Poops normal....just sluggish and trippin!




Okay ~ there were no real symptoms...but you knew they were "off"...depressed ...not really swiming...not really eating much....and wc and salt..high heat ~ TIME... none of that works...what would be the next step?

Curse and swear a bit:bandana: ...going around saying what am I missing....massive water changesscrape and scope other fish besides the sulking one to see if I missed something. Only as a last resort will I start shotgunning the fish and then it'll be in a QT

....The Dutch mentor that I had as a kid, said when all else fails change water:) .....


That help ;)

[tpl*co]

[quote]Okay ~ there were no real symptoms...but you knew they were "off"...depressed ...not really swiming...not really eating much....and wc and salt..high heat ~ TIME... none of that works...what would be the next step?[quote]

Were these fish newly introduced to their surroundings? Is there something they are "staring" at? (maybe something could be moved or something is wrong that they don't like). Is all equipment working properly? In this case yes, I would do a big water change, salt and heat and only watch for a short while, if no improvement, and you rule out something in their environment they don't like (remember the seeing through the bottom of the tank scenerio?), start treatment.

The other scenerio, I would agree to start treatment as Graham described.

Tina

[brewmaster15]

Marie,
this should help...

http://www.aquaworldnet.com/awmag/symtreaten.htm
http://www.aquaworldnet.com/awmag/symtreaten1.htm
http://www.aquaworldnet.com/awmag/symtreaten2.htm

This was by far one of the most comprehensive step by step guessing guides based on symptoms.. It will give you the rationale behind thinking about what could be the problem and suggested steps to remedy the issues.

Some of the links are broken, but cut and past the above links to the browsers.


HTh,
al

[Polar_Bear]

1. You notice that all discus are eating but one ~ for the last two meals...he goes for the cube aggressively but...changes his mind and goes back to his little spot on the bottom of the tank....

I would assume it is "the low man on the totem pole" if I saw no other problems with it. I would watch that tank closely, and that fish for a few hours to be sure I was correct.


2. You notice on a tank that some of your discus are a tad bit labored breathing and on one or two only one gill is opening...

Immediately would you assume flukes and treat?...What if you use lets say....PP and it improves but in a fews days you notice one of them not eating still but both gills are open...Formalin?

OR ~ just high heat and salt for a week?

I agree with Graham somewhat about this. I would assume gill flukes but I would treat with PP, which has always worked well for me. A somewhat safer method is the one Graham decribed F/MG or better still just Formalin. Salt is not going to do anything for this.


3. You notice that one of your large discus keeps hiding behind the driftwood ...he does come out to eat but ultimately returns...he looks fine...

Again, the first thing I would do is observe it. Since it's still eating I would take that as a good sign. Also again, the first thing I would think is pecking order problems.


4. You notice that a group of your discus are just huddled...just looking sad....come up to eat but go back to the huddle ~ what would you do in this case? Wc and time?? Again?

What if that was your only sypmtoms?



I agree with you here. First thing would be a water change, and again careful observation