Too much aggression! Need some advice!

[BigAlFromCal]

Howdy, hope you all can give me some pointers here. I have a 65g that I had six discus in till a few days ago. Three blues, three reds. I mention color here because I had heard/read that color is important to cichlids in general - I'm not sure if that's the case with discus. In any event, the blues, and in particular one big (5") blue diamond I have has been very aggressive to the reds. In fact and despite my best efforts, he had managed to keep them from eating.
Three days ago, I gave up on trying to keep them all in the same tank and moved the reds to a 29g (well established). Unfortunately, the change and the lack of food (I believe) contributed to the demise of two of those reds. The last one is eating and seeming to do better.
Back to the 65g. Immediately after the removal of the reds, the big blue started going after the two smaller ones (2-3"). He chases them endlessly, snapping and butting them. So I went to my LFS and found a 5" Henkel Blue. Brought him home yesterday. Once the lights went on today, the Diamond began attacking the Henkel. I moved some plants and did a little wood shifting, not too much, I don't want to add to the stress of the new guy. No joy. The diamond continues his attacks. Chases the henkel EVERYWHERE throughout the tank.
Is there anything I can do to lessen this aggression? Both of the big guys are beautiful and I wouldn't want to get rid of either. I think moving the new guy is not an option right now as he seems pretty stressed (he was wonderfully blue at the LFS, very dull now). Anything? I've asked this at a couple sites and I'm not just not getting much help.
Thanks so much in advance!

[KISS]

Sounds your tank is planted, right? It might not be easy, however, I will block them in each side in your 65g tank at this point. And later let them meet again, if nothing is better just block them again. They will be fine with each other later since they are in same size.

You can use egg crates, which could be found in Homedepot, as the separation.

Let them in one tank. Don't move discus frequently. I hope they will be OK together later.

Good Luck,

KISS

[Ryan]

Remove the blue discus with the bully problem and place him into quarantine for a while. In the meantime, let the other discus build their strength back up and eat. While he's out of the tank, switch things around and let your fish settle down a little. Once everyone seems to be doing well, try moving the bully back in. Sometimes an "attitude adjustment" like this can change things up enough to calm the fish down. I've done this with other types of cichlids.

Unfortunately, sometimes there are just jerk fish. A lot like people, I guess. I've had lots of psycho angelfish in the past and I just get rid of them. I can't keep something that insists on attacking every tankmate I try to mix it with.

Ryan

[Polar_Bear]

I mostly agree with Ryan about this. Take the little red out of the 29 and replace it with your aggressive blue. Give the fish in the 65 a week or so to build their strength back up and to get accustomed to not being constantly bullied. Try putting the big blue back in after that. Most likely it will be the current resisdents of the 65 that are now attacking the "newcomer", that will settle down quite quickly. Hopefully then they will all be fine together.
I agree with Ryan that sometimes you just have a very aggressive fish, if that continues perhaps you can exchange it at your lfs for a different one.

[traco]

Yep, there are some really grumpy fish with attitudes sometimes. And a time out is worth a try like the above have said.

[BigAlFromCal]

Thank you all for your replies. It is a very heavily planted tank - with lots of wood, too. The new Henkel is doing better. I turned off the lights for most of the day. While the Diamond is still somewhat aggressive, he's behaving a little better. Plus, everyone is eating.
I'm not too comfortable moving anyone else to the 29 as it's never been a discus tank (gouramis, plecos, corys and ram), but I've slowly brought up the temp. Only reason I moved the reds there at all is I was out of options. I'm only going to leave the lights on for a couple hours today and then we'll see what shakes out tomorrow. If it's still bad, I'm thinking of getting the other 6" blue they had at the LFS. Any problems ya'all see with that?
Worst comes to worst, I'm gonna divide the tank for a few days. Let's hope that it doesn't come to that.
Thanks again for your input!

[Snuffy]

Hey Al
I had a similar problem a few weeks back and did somthing like Ryan suggested and it seems to be working. I had a 3 inch green diamond attacking a 5 inch melon to no end a real bully, he was not happy unless the melon was hiding in a corner. I set up a 12 gallon tank next to my 150 and tossed the bully in for a week. I had moved the drift wood around and figured that the fish would think that he was in a new tank, he didnt go for it as soon as he got back in about 2 hours later he was at it again. I tossed him right back into solitary confinment and left him there for a month and in that month i added 3 new fish to the tank when he got paroled he met a new fish that wasnt there before with a bigger attitude than he had and now it seems that he has learned his lesson and has his own problems with the new fish giving chase on him. Good luck with your fish I hope you can rehabilitate your BD.

Eric

[swinters66]

If you are worried about the water quality in the 29 gallon...have it checked. But I would have removed the big blue to the 29 and let the remaining discus stay in the 65 to calm down.

Once the 29 g is correct in ph, etc...move the big guy to that.

One of my blue turq. is a bully, but only when its feeding time. Not hugely aggressive, he just wants the food to himself...little pig!

[BigAlFromCal]

OK, so most of yesterday, the second full day for the Heckel (new guy) was either defense of the BD or attacking the two smaller BD's. By the end of the day, the two big guys had an uneasy truce. Neither was attacking the other. Since they spent so much time staring each other down, the two small guys are actually being left alone! So I may go back to the LFS today, purchase the other 6" Heckel they have there and let things go. I may not, though, if all stays calm. Why disturb things?
As an aside, but a direct result of what happened to the reds, there was a chain of events that took place following the relocation of those reds to the 29g. In the 29g, there was a 5" synodontis. He got along with the king tiger plec and the bristlenose plec and never bothered the corys, otos or gouramis. Till the introduction of the discus. He went bonkers chasing every damn thing. Chased the poor red silly. So he had to move.
He went to our 55g cichlid tank - which has 6 4" Malawis, 2 other synodontis and a common pleco. While it would be some comedy to say the pattern continued, he was accepted almost immediately. The side effect in the cichlid tank is now the synos actually come out and swim around. Cool!
We've also got a 20g that we raise guppies (babies for food for the cichlids!) and a few others. Every tank but the malawi has plants and co2.
Lastly, I was just given a 180g (6'x2'x2'), stand and lights. By Feb or so, that's where the discus and the other inhabitants of the 65g where they live now will go. That includes 5 4" clown loaches, a golden nugget pleco and some SAE's. It will be a heavily planted tank as well. This time, though, I'm going to go with some very large anubias with huge leaves way up on stalks. That should give the discus some hiding room underneath.
The 29g, just by-the-by, gets the same treatment as my discus tank - regular (2-3 times per week) 30-40% PWC's, excellent filtration, etc. It was more that the temp wasn't right and I wasn't convinced the tiger plec was a good mate for the discus.
Thanks to all of you who responded for your time and opinions.

[BigAlFromCal]

Now a couple more days have gone by and the BD's aggression has come to the fore yet again. I'm going down to the LFS and purchasing the other BD they had. That will bring to five the number of blues in the tank. And three of those will be over 5". The Heckel's around 6" and the new BD is almost 7". I'm hoping that now, some of the aggression will, if not actually subside, at least be spread around a bit more.

[KISS]

Now a couple more days have gone by and the BD's aggression has come to the fore yet again. I'm going down to the LFS and purchasing the other BD they had. That will bring to five the number of blues in the tank. And three of those will be over 5". The Heckel's around 6" and the new BD is almost 7". I'm hoping that now, some of the aggression will, if not actually subside, at least be spread around a bit more.

Good Luck, man.

Could you show us some pictures? the new BD 7'' gonna be very impressive! haven't seen a 7" BD for a while! :p Thanks.

[Ryan]

Each time you add a new discus to your tank, you upset the balance and the pecking order has to be re-established. The new fish must find a way to fit into the pecking order. This means new discus will either come to torment your existing fish, or (a more likely scenario) vice-versa.

Likewise, the same happens when removing a fish.

If a single fish is bullying multiple fish to the point that they hide, that fish IMO is overly aggressive and needs to either be isolated for a while to allow him to "cool his jets" or maybe returned to the store as an exchange for store credit. However, if none of the discus are stressed to the point of starving themselves or constantly hiding, some fighting and squabbling is normal. Let this work itself out. Your fish will need to establish their pecking order.

It's always risky to bring home new discus and add them to your existing tank without quarantine. I'm sure you know this, but I feel better saying it so that it's out there.

Ryan

[White Worm]

Hey Big Al.....Do you have a Quarantine period? Sounds like you have a habit of going to the lfs every few days and adding a new fish to the already established tank without QT. Dominant fish will also pick on the sick ones. You cant be sure what that lfs has put into and removed from these tanks during the last 3-7 days. I would be careful and always QT because you could have lost these young ones to a bug also which will also be a sign of not eating. just some ideas. Mike
Edit...Sorry Ryan, posted at the same time, I was wondering why noone addressed this issue.

[BigAlFromCal]

Mikscus and Ryan - Normally, I do QT all fish before putting them in. I've not added to the discus tank since May until just this past couple weeks and no, in this case, I did not QT. As far as going every few days to the LFS...no, that's not correct. Not sure how'd you get the word "habit" from one thread, but ok. In any event, what I was trying to do was quell the aggression.
But you are right to some degree, Ryan. The new guys came in and despite my hopes that it would calm things down, it hasn't. The blue diamond, if anything, has gotten more aggressive. This has in turn led to some aggression on the part of the newcomers. Finally, today I've done what I've done in the past to settle things down - a major reworking of the tank, followed by a PWC. Things are very calm right now and I just did the afternoon feeding. Feeding, up till the change, was when it got really bad.
I know discus are going to be aggressive - to a degree. But this was simply crazy! The blue diamond wouldn't eat so he could instead chase the two newcomers and the two smaller guys. At first, I thought it was a numbers game with there being only the three, so I added the Heckel. I figured the same when I added the Green. Seems it was more just this particular fish. We'll see how things go once everyone gets used to the new setup. My real hope is that once I have the 180 setup, then they'll have real space to spread out.

[White Worm]

So I went to my LFS and found a 5" Henkel Blue. Brought him home yesterday.


If it's still bad, I'm thinking of getting the other 6" blue they had at the LFS. Any problems ya'all see with that?

You asked if anyone saw any problems???? I was just pointing out that there may be other things you might want to consider.


So I may go back to the LFS today, purchase the other 6" Heckel
.


Now a couple more days have gone by and the . I'm going down to the LFS and purchasing the other BD they had.


Mikscus and Ryan - Normally, I do QT all fish before putting them in. As far as going every few days to the LFS...no, that's not correct. Not sure how'd you get the word "habit" from one thread, but ok. I thought it was a numbers game with there being only the three, so I added the Heckel. I figured the same when I added the Green.

From the looks of things, one could assume that you may have purchased the original 6 in the same manner. From the way you are attacking this problem, there would be no reason for anyone to think otherwise. Sorry, I may have just been confused. You had 6, lost 3 and added 2 more at seperate times within a few days (on top of that, from a lfs). I was just trying to let you know that you are looking for more trouble than you have now and it is hard to rule out illness with no QT. A lfs can swap fish in an out of tanks daily so you never know what you have brought in. As soon as you move one discus out or add one in, the whole cycle starts over so you are not going to cure them. They need to work it out or you may need to get rid of the one that never stops harassing the others. This process could go on for weeks until the order has been established and in the last 5 days(?) you have restarted this process 2X. Sorry if my opinion was not what you wanted to hear. :o

[BigAlFromCal]

Good points, true. But instead of asking, you assumed. My lfs has had these two for some time. Both have been in their care for over four months in a tank that was essentially dedicated to discus - and only these two! (Mostly cause they don't often carry them, they are primarily into saltwater). I knew that and that was one of the reasons for doing what I did. I have dealt with them for some time and have a level of confidence in them. Of course, you didn't know that though.
And I do agree that it's not the best way to solve the problem. When I moved the reds and they passed, I couldn't be sure of the reasons. I knew there were stress problems from the 65g and that was what I assumed they suffered from. But I couldn't be sure it wasn't conditions in the 29g and I wasn't risking the BD. I've had him for way too long. So I made the call to bring in the others.
My request for help was primarily along the lines of the aggression. As the BD has gotten bigger, so has his attitude until it recently exploded into this all-out bully. Since I've had discus, I've never experienced that. Where I live (very small towns, no 'experts' on discus), there's not much help. So I enlisted this forum.
If I was offering assistance to you, I'm not sure I would have worded it the way you did and that was my point of contention with your post - not the advice nor the point of view. I just took offense to the imagined tone based on the words. I'm sure were you to re-read it, you'd see what I mean.
In any event, I appreciate the advice and be sure I am taking all ideas into account, even I don't follow them. I was kind of at my wits end with the bully and wasn't sure what to do. Thanks to everyone for your suggestions.

[White Worm]

My request for help was primarily along the lines of the aggression.
I just took offense to the imagined tone based on the words. I'm sure were you to re-read it, you'd see what I mean.

Thats the problem with written word, you can never tell tone.


Hey Big Al.....Do you have a Quarantine period? Sounds like you have a habit.

I assumed but I also did ask to clarify. Too many times people will come here new to discus asking certain questions and they fail to realize that they may be doing something else incorrect that they werent aware of. I know you primarily were interested in aggression advice but you have to look at many things that could cause your problem. The advice was to remove and replace the same fish. When you started adding new ones, noone asked or pointed out the problems with that until ryan and I posted nearly in the same minute. Its great that you have a lfs that you can trust and i appologize if it sounded like I was insinuating something about your knowledge level or the lfs procedures but it is hard to believe that they would seperate by species unless they were specialized (I could be wrong). Many hobbyists wonder why they have illness, death and problems and then it is found that they didnt QT this time or they have been fine so far. I have been there, not as long or as many times as some here but I learned from mistakes. I'm not even close to an expert here and was just giving you some ideas....some times the best route is straight to the point. Good Luck.

[BigAlFromCal]

Mikscus, thanks. Like I said, I agreed with your points.

As far as what's happening now, I removed a huge piece of driftwood from the center of the tank which for some reason was keeping everyone on the right side of the tank. They are now spreading out, picking new spots. Right now, it seems like some of the problem is working itself out. Like I've said before, I really hope that tripling the space will calm things down a bit, too.

The bully is still being a bully, but nowhere near as bad. The other two large ones are sticking up for themselves more. Again, thanks to all of you who took the time to respond and give suggestions. Merry Chistmas!