Wet/Dry or Canister

[Vorian]

I was at my local fish store yesterday and was looking at a 100 gal Aquarium made by All Glass I think. It was plumbed for a Wet/Dry filter and the whole set up was close to $1000. One of the workers claimed that I needed a Wet/Dry filter for a tank that large or when keeping Discus. Now I know they make Canister filters for large tanks too, and I have researched both systems, but I've never used them or kept Discus.

So I was curious to know what others use for thier community aquariums? breeding tanks? Large planted community aquariums?

Any info would be appreciated.


Thanks, James

[Polar_Bear]

Hi James,
First off, Welcome to Simply!

I have a tank a bit larger than that and it has a wet/dry on it. It also has built-in over flows, which I am assuming the one you are looking at has too. The truth is you can use either a wet/dry or a canister. I happen to prefer the sump (wet/dry) simply because it's easier to clean and I can put "stuff" in it, like heaters etc. That said, a canister will definately be quieter, sumps tend to make noise, especially if they are used in a wet/dry fashion. So my advice is if your new aquarium will be in a place where you don't want it to make noise, go with the canister. btw your lfs guy is dead wrong IMO, either filter will work just fine, of course you will need a somewhat large canister though, like an FX5 or Eheim 2260, or something big along those lines.

[Vorian]

Allright thanks, I figured along those lines. I wonder, if I decided to go with a 75 gal, if the FX5 would be overkill. I mean would it have a negative affect on the environment in the aquarium as a whole, or just do the job more than efficient....

James

[tpl*co]

Allright thanks, I figured along those lines. I wonder, if I decided to go with a 75 gal, if the FX5 would be overkill. I mean would it have a negative affect on the environment in the aquarium as a whole, or just do the job more than efficient....

James

I'm a big fan of not putting all your eggs in one basket, why not run 2 XP3's on the 75 or a HOB and a canister?

Tina

[Vorian]

Im sorry, what does the acronym HOB stand for? and who makes the XP3?
And I guess you cant overkill it then... not putting all my eggs in one basket is definately worth considering.


James

[RoninGai]

hello james welcome to simply i'm a noob as well.

HOB = hang on back (filters.heater etc) anything that hangs on the tank.

an XP3 is a canister filter made by rena (i thought fluval) i was thinking of the FX5 it's a big ol' Canister but i've seen it in display tanks and it looks good (i'm a ehiem advocate i've used them for awhile) overfiltering is a good thing imo. just make sure to do maint. on them and w/c = water change, if you decide to keep discus or any other fish for that matter clean water= healthy,robust fish. w/ discus it's more w/c than any other fish. Gl on your choice of filters.


happy new year to ALL !!!

[Polar_Bear]

HOB = Hang On Back, your typical aquarium filter. I run one Rena XP3 on each of my 75 gallon tanks and find I have no problems with filtration but they are all BB (Bare Bottom) tanks, and since I always have spare filters I'm not concerned that one may fail. One FX5 on a 75 gallon would be massive overkill IMO. Discus generally don't like a whole lot of current in their tanks, and most people who have a lot of tanks just go with air driven sponge filters. What it all really boils down to is what you want the tank to be. If it is a show tank and/or a planted tank you will probably do best with a canister. For a 75 gallon an Eheim 2600 or 2800 series would be a good choice. If you don't care much about looks and want only a place to raise fish, then just go with sponge filters. If you want maximum beauty and want to keep as much equipment out of the tank as possible go with a sump.

[dishpanhands]

Wet/dry filters work good but take a long time to clean...I use one on one of my tanks..I think about saleing it all the time, it takes longer to clean then the rest of my tanks..If its the only tank it might not be to bad, but if you have a bunch of tanks or you want a bunch of tanks. I would go another way.another reason to not use it is the fish don't like the jet of water the pump makes. you will have to make a spray bar to break up the jet. can't use it to breed. They eat babies..
HTH

[crazie.eddie]

I use both a Eheim Pro II 2128 and a Rena FilStar XP3 on my 125 gallon tank. All my fish, including the discus do not mind it. I use spray bars on both the filters. I also use powerheads to create additional current. I do notice that I sometimes get some floating debris, which my filter does not catch. I do plan to switch one of my filters for a wet/dry filter to catch any surface debris as well.

[Vorian]

can a spray bar be purchased to fit most or all filter outlets, or does it need to be made?

Lots of great info and opinions, thanks.


James

[tpl*co]

LOL, been out all day so I see that someone beat me to the HOB and who makes the XP3. :).

Yes, Rena Filstar makes the XP series, and they are extremely easy to use.

The FX5 is very nice too, but be warned on them, they don't aerate much when installed as instructed. I have a room divider show tank, and read about mishaps with other people so I made a spraybar for it. Everything was fine until the spraybar came lose one night and I woke up to my fish being suffocated :(. This was the first tank I only had one filter going on, I usually have 2 or 3 going :). The FX5 also has quite a bit of output too.

Tina

[Vorian]

Thanks for all the info, very usefull. I have an idea of what I need now.


James

[crazie.eddie]

can a spray bar be purchased to fit most or all filter outlets, or does it need to be made?

Lots of great info and opinions, thanks.


James

If you use either the 12/166mm or 16/22mm, you can purchase Eheim Installation sets...
http://www.drsfostersmith.com/images/Categoryimages/normal/p_12791_FS19579D.jpg

http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=9606&Ntt=installation&Ntk=All&Ntx=mode+matchallpartial&Np=1&pc=1&N=0&Nty=1

They are spraybars and you can also buy matching intakes.

[Cosmo]

I use the Eheim installation kits on my big tanks. In the others I make my own out of pvc.. much cheaper. From now on, unless the tank is in a family area I'm sticking with home made pvc not only because it's cheaper, but you can fit it exactly to the tank any way you want it... i.e. does a better job.

You can even emulate that little screw off cap for priming simply by inserting a Tee, a short nipple, a slip/threaded male connector, and a threaded male cap. Might cost you all of $1 to make it
Jim

[Vorian]

I use the Eheim installation kits on my big tanks. In the others I make my own out of pvc.. much cheaper. From now on, unless the tank is in a family area I'm sticking with home made pvc not only because it's cheaper, but you can fit it exactly to the tank any way you want it... i.e. does a better job.

You can even emulate that little screw off cap for priming simply by inserting a Tee, a short nipple, a slip/threaded male connector, and a threaded male cap. Might cost you all of $1 to make it
Jim

ahhh, Im very familiar with pvc, however, is the pvc glue toxic to fish? or do you use an aquairum sealant?

That would be really easy to make, but since I do not currently have a canister filter, how about connection to the outlet from the filter?

[diablocanine]

ahhh, Im very familiar with pvc, however, is the pvc glue toxic to fish? or do you use an aquairum sealant?

That would be really easy to make, but since I do not currently have a canister filter, how about connection to the outlet from the filter?
I have had no problems with the all purpose cement. Here are some links for ideas (the Discus tank is currently being rebuilt, will have a 20 gallon sump and 2 eheim 2215s.)......DC
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/equipment/28332-sump-journal-sorta.html
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/diy/30908-drilling-my-55-a.html
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/diy/34439-pvc-heater-reactor-manifold.html

[Vorian]

whoa, I learned alot in those links. Very nice set up, I understood the pvc parts :p and I know what most of the stuff does but not how to work it or set it up.

Im sure with more attention to it and practice Ill pick it up.

Anyways I've decided to start a bit smaller and get the Discus part of the equation figured first, Im going to start with a smaller 50 gal tank. It will be bare at first, but I think its best to start small and build up.

Thanks alot for all the info, I finally feel I've found the info resource I needed and Ill be sure to post pics along the way. And ofcoarse keep asking all my boat load of questions :D

Thanks,
James

[dandestroy]

I'm running 2 canister eheim on a 80 gal tank, works great but if I had to go bigger like 200 gal and over, I would clearly build one big sump... cause there is no limit to the size of it as compare to pre build canister (much cheaper IMO)

[greyhoundfan]

I have a 100 G, It's doing just fine with two Fluval 404s.

DC, your set up is awesome.

[Harriett]

I have had no problems with the all purpose cement. Here are some links for ideas (the Discus tank is currently being rebuilt, will have a 20 gallon sump and 2 eheim 2215s.)......DC
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/equipment/28332-sump-journal-sorta.html
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/diy/30908-drilling-my-55-a.html
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/diy/34439-pvc-heater-reactor-manifold.html

I built a PVC spray bar for my FX5 and did NOT glue anything together. The PVC pieces fit tightly enough that those connections are just twisted into elbow or T connectors or whatever, and are holding fine (10 months later); with some moderate muscle I can take them apart to clean or change up the design. The other connections are male/female threaded. I wanted the flexibility to change/shorten/lengthen pieces without making a permament commitment with glue or worrying about toxicities for the fish.
I have made minor design changes several times and am happy I decided to do it this way!
best regards
Harriett

[jkb]

bought a 75 about 6months ago put a marineland canister rated for 100gal tank and a hang on skilter250 on has a protein skimmer in its helps in airation have 5 discus 3angels 12 serpa tetras 3black neons and a pleco and almost forgot a betta all doing well i looked at the same tank youre looking at just didnt want to spend the extra mony i guess im cheap

[kaceyo]

Do you ever get enough foam from your Skilter to spill over into the collection cup?

Kacey

[MD Bandit]

Lots of great and confusing info on these two pages. I have a 90 gallon show tank in the family room. No discus yet. Currently using an Eheim 2217, a Hydro4 Sponge, and a Magnum HOT out back with a micron. I just experienced a bio crash from cleaning all of them within a weeks time. Lost about 20 smaller tetras from it or about 70.00, still, it hurts. Anyway, I guy I work with SWEARS by the wet/dry system and tells me every chance he gets to go that route. So heres my dilemma, I'm a newbie at those systems.
If I were to place an order through Big Al's, what do I get? Does it need a pump? Or is there a complete 'kit' out there? I looked at the Marineland tidepool and a few others. I would like to keep at least one of the current three filtration systems as a back up to the wet/dry. Probably the Eheim. What would you guys do?

[DiscusOnly]

If you are running multiples filter on your tank, why did you clean all of them at once? I run 2 canister (2 diffferent brands) on my 90 gal and never a problem. They are set up as bio only filter and I take turn cleaning them.

The wet/dry gives you some nice options in term of a cleaner look but I wouldn't say a wet/dry is a must for a 90 gal. I am working on getting a 175 gal and I am not even sure if I would go with a wet/dry route.

[RockHound]

Years back, I switched to wet/dry trickle filters (W/D T/F) & never looked back.

If you have an open cell foam prefilter in front of a W/D T/F, and clean that foam prefilter periodically.
A W/D T/F will run almost forever, without any maintenance.
Then, if it requires any, it is usually only vacuuming out a paper thin streak of accumulated micro-silt, that may settle out, in the sump area.

The design of an effective W/D T/F is such the biomedia is self cleaning.
Once the biomedia is colonized, any dieing/dead biofilm simply sloughs off the media & young new biofilm forms in it’s place.

Moreover, many of the canister filter manufactures are full of BS, when it comes to the how much actual effective biomedia surface area they contain.
Most are touted as model X will handle a 55g aquarium, model XX will handle a 75g, model XXX, a 100g, Etc.
While that might be true of water FLOW RATE.
Flow rate & biofilter surface area are two differing things.

Certainly, there has to be an adequate flow rate, over bio-media, for it to function.
But, reality is, it is how much total surface area that bacteria have to colonize within a biofilter, that determines the biofiltering capacity.

I usually run about 2 cubic ft of biomedia in a W/D T/F.
So that the bacteria has room to expand/contract to handle any potential rise/fall in the waste loads, that occur from stocking rate changes, or water conditions.
Most canister filters, the whole canister, internal pump & content are nowhere near that big.

A well designed W/D T/F, with 1 inch gravity flow into it will handle 600 GPH, no sweat.
Most individual canister filters are nowhere near that flow capacity.

You can build (DIY) a well designed W/D T/F with a huge bio-capacity.
For about the cost of a small rinky dink power canister filter.

Another advantage to W/D T/F's is having a sump area.
Where you can place heaters, aerator, whatever gizmo's you want, or a bag of peat, zeolite, etc.
Instead of in-tank, or anywhere visible.

Most canister filters are touted as 2 or 3 stage filters.
That usually being, mechanical, chemical & biological filtration.

Mechanical is trapping solids, in a screen/sieve effect, via fine floss filter pad.
Chemical is usually though activated carbon, zeolite, etc., by cation exchange.
Which also serves as second stage mechanical filtration.
As the porous chemical media also physically traps particulates.

Then comes biological, by bacteria that colonize bio-house-media in the filter.

All good & great, in theory.
However, fine physical & chemical media tend to plug.
As that is the nature of the particulate trapping function it performs.
The more it traps, the more it becomes obstructed, until it plugs.

Effective biological filtering media is combination of:
Aerobic conditions for optimal bacteria colonization, function/performance.
High total biomedia surface area, as a platform for bacteria to live on.
High void space, to allow unobstructed water/air flow through the biomedia.

Since canister filters are enclosed & pressurized.
That sets absolute limit’s on the oxygen available to bacteria in it.
To whatever is dissolved in the water running through the canister.
Which is often nowhere near optimal.

Which is not the case with a W/D T/F, as it provides a large air/water interface.
Which serves two optimal functions.
1. Provides optimal oxygen availability to bacteria in it.
2. The large air/water interface allows water to fully saturate with oxygen.
Just before it returns to the tank.
Which is not the case in an enclosed canister filter, unless it is aerated.

Then, there is the :( PUREE FACTOR.:(
If the pump in a canister filter is at the head end of the unit.
The pump impeller functions as a BLENDER BLADE.
Which purées in-flow fecal waste into micron sized particles .
Often almost invisible, or totally invisible to the naked eye.

Which is great for water clarity.
But, don’t confuse clear water, with optimal water chemistry/purity.
As, invisible toxins in water, can rapidly accumulate to injurious, or fatal levels on fish.

Look through your tank the long way.
If the water has a slight or heavy yellow/brown tint.
Your water contains a LOT of disolved organic carbon (DOC).
That is the "puree factor" in effect.

If your concern is pure functionality & high performance.
Over the looks of a swanky (expensive) acrylic container.

You can build a DIY basic W/D T/F in a couple hours, with Home-Depot/Lowes parts.
inexpensively

Size wise, they are hundreds of choices of durable tough plastic tote/storage box’s.
So, it is no big deal find a suitable size container, to fit your needs.

Once you have a durable container.
Use white egg crate type light diffuser panel, cut in pieces, to form a porous box, to hold bio-media.
Use tough plastic slip ties to hold that container tightly together.
(slip ties are used to hold electrical wiring, in bundles & are cheap.)

Rig some legs, or a stand out of PVC pipe for that box.
So, the box bottom is held even with sump high water level.

Water level is determined by height of the drain bulkhead fitting.
(bulkhead made of the gray electrical conduit type PCV fittings)
Or, a weir plate you place in the sump, in front of the drain.

Build a diffuser trickle plate out of any durable stiff flat plastic.
With lots of holes drilled in it, for water to drain through & evenly shower media below.
Size it to fit in the top of the biomedia box you built.

Cut container lid in half.
Drill a hole in one half, directly over the center of the diffuser - distribution plate.
Fit a PVC bulkhead into that hole.
Plumb water inflow to that fitting in the container lid.

Install a PVC bulkhead drain & that is about it.

There are numerous design variations, you can apply, to suit whatever end result you want.

Two 5 gallon plastic buckets with lids, will also work.
(tough, durable, inexpensive & available about anywhere)
Downside is you will not have sump space, to put things in.
As one bucket sits inside the other.

Cut 1 buckets top off @ the lowest flangle that circles it.
Drill a pattern of 1/4 inch holes in that buckets bottom.
Trim/cut lid round, so it will fit just inside the bucket top.
Drill an even pattern of 1/4 inch holes in that lid, to create a diffuser trickle plate.

Fill that bucket almost full of bio-housing media.
Sit diffuser trickle plate lid you trimmed, level, right on top the biomedia.
Install PVC fitting bulkhead in center of 2nd bucket lid.
Install PVC bulkhead fitting near base of 2nd bucket, as a drain.

Sit bucket containing biomedia & diffuser trickle plate in the other bucket.
Use PVC cement to secure it in place.

Snap on the top buckets lid.
Plumb water flow to bulkhead in top bucket lid with PVC pipe.
Plumb drain to pump return.

If you want an open sump.
You can sit the bucket combo in a sturdy storage tote.
Omit bulkhead fitting on bottom bucket hole.
Allowing water to drain directly into storage tote.
Install bulkhead fitting in the storage tote, as a drain.

You can use bioballs, monofilament pot scrubbers , cut up soaker hose, even swamp cooler pads, or whatever, as biomedia.

What it ALL comes down to is, SIMPLICITY, PERFORMANCE & STABILITY.
If well designed:
W/D T/F’s are very simple.
W/D T/F’s are high performance.
W/D T/F’s are extremely stable.

If space - height - visability is not an issue.
For a much much larger W/D T/F, use a 15, 18, or 20 gallon plastic drum.
http://i270.photobucket.com/albums/jj85/placer_mines/7drumdefuse.jpg

http://i270.photobucket.com/albums/jj85/placer_mines/drumcannisterfilter.jpg

If you want a giant size W/D T/F.
You can stack 2 drums.
http://i270.photobucket.com/albums/jj85/placer_mines/filterparts.jpg