New to Discus

[Tolak]

Hey everyone, new to discus, but not to aquatics. A little background on me will probably help.

I’ve been breeding angels for a few years, have 18 tanks running with around 550 total gallons. I’ve got a few different pairs, and have sold several thousand of angels to shops, through auctions & swaps, and through brokers. I’ve also got some apistos, corys, & plecs breeding. My fishroom is set up with a centralized air system, most all the tanks are filtered by sponge & box filters. I’m on the board of the local aquarium society here in Chicago.

Through the club a couple other members & I were able to get a deal on sixty 2” discus from Majestic Aquatics out in southern California. I’ve got a bare bottomed 55 with cycled filters running with some breeder size angels in it, and plan on starting out the discus here. The angels will get moved to other tanks, the discus will have the tank to themselves. Daily water changes aren’t a problem, I have had a system for that in place for quite a while. Storage for aging water isn’t a problem either. My water is pretty hard, pH of 7.7, typical Chicago tap water. I’ve got some peat running in this tank, I can generally get a stable pH of 7.0 with peat.

Here’s where the questions come in. Majestic advises a pH of 6.0 to 6.4 for new fish. They also advise using a product called Kent Low Range Controller for dropping pH, and somehow lowering the hardness. This product is supposed to do what they say after talking to a couple guys in the club with decades of experience, but this goes against everything I know or have learned about water parameters. It sounds like a pH disaster waiting to happen, it may drop it but I am almost certain it will rebound. I know with the peat I can keep a stable pH of 7.0. I’m wondering if this will be a good enough starting point to acclimate them to my pH over time, or if I should pick up a ro unit & go from there. Quite a few club members have gotten in discus in the past, and successfully acclimated them to tap without going through the process of starting with ro. They would usually acclimate them for 4 to 6 weeks, then resell them. While I do plan on reselling about half over time, this is going to be the start of my next breeding adventure.

An honest opinion on my plan, as well as the seller and their water conditioning ideas would be appreciated. Don’t be afraid of hurting my feelings with any comments, if I were a crybaby I wouldn’t be posting this. If I need to set up more tank space for twenty 2” fish I can do that, spare sponge filters are running & cycled, old power filters are sitting around collecting dust, I have plenty of options I can do if needed.

Thanks in advance for reading this over & replying!

John

[GrillMaster]

First...gettin 60 -2" discus is great! Puttin em in the 55G where the angels were is not! You need a quarantine tank for the discus. Six weeks at least.

You are sayin that the water is pretty hard with a ph of 7.7. That doesn't tell us how hard the water is...

I dont know who or what Majestic is, but them sayin ya gotta have the ph at 6.0-6.4 for new fish is a load a crap!! Plus lowerin the ph has nuthin to do with hardness...

Ya dont need RO. Ya need to age the water. Aging the water will induce the same parameters that are in the tank if ya do it right. Aerate it, heat it to the same temp, an dechlor it.

I dont know where yer gettin this acclimatin em for 4-6 weeks from.

Bottom line is, ya wanna replace the water everyday with the exact same water that is in the tank. This is done by aging. HTH

-Mark-

[poconogal]

Hey John, welcome to Discus! What is your GH and KH? Your PH of 7.7 is not a problem for keeping Discus. I'm on my own private well and my tank runs a steady 7.8, 4 dkh and 4 dgh. I use straight tap and I do not age my water. I have 2 spawning pairs and get wigglers from each spawn with the above water parameters. Since I'm not interested in breeding, they become snacks, of course! Out of the tap my KH and GH are 4 dkh and 5 dgh, TDS about 105, and my PH is 8.1 (I have weird water). MY QT tank, obviously because there is much less fish load, runs 8.1. I've never had a problem with any Discus with either PH. What you've been told by Majestic is simply not true. Also, it is not a good idea putting the Discus in where the Angels were. Unless you break down that tank and sterilize everything first, you run the real risk of there being something in the tank that the Angels can deal with, but that can kill the Discus. It is recommended that a fishless cycle be done for a tank where you will be placing Discus.

[architect1]

I just wanted to say welcome to simply its a great site. some times it can be a pain when you have a problem and your waiting for a response. But its still great the people are great to.

[Timbo]

hi john and welcome to simply...the world's authority (if you ask us:) ) on discus...and probably one of the most friendly and helpful sites on the web.


I’ve got some peat running in this tank, I can generally get a stable pH of 7.0 with peat. really, peat is unnecessary as is a pH of 7.0, save your money :)


Majestic advises a pH of 6.0 to 6.4 for new fish. this is not required, discus will do quite well in pH up to 8 or so. my pH is 7.6-7.8 and no probs. stability is the key even if it is high. frequent water changes will provide this


They also advise using a product called Kent Low Range Controller for dropping pH, and somehow lowering the hardness. they are trying to sell you something that is unnecessary, you will be constantly adjusting pH which can potentially cause stress. again, save your money..... for your water bill; water changes will do what you need:)


I should pick up a ro unit & go from there. also usually unnecessary, unless your discus are breeding or your water is exceptionlly bad. as you know, ro's remove much of the buffering capability of water. declorinated/de-clorimined tap water (preferably aged 24 hrs) works quite well for discus in most circumstances


While I do plan on reselling about half over time, this is going to be the start of my next breeding adventure. for your plan and for optimum re-sale possibilites, best advice is...start with the best stock you can find! there are good sponsors here on simply who can certainly provide great fish. i dont know one here that i would not trust

also, we have a few members in the chicago area with (most likely) very similiar water as yours. with your background with fish, i'm pretty sure you will be quite successful. and you found simply!

again...welcome! ( i think we saved you some cash that you can put towards water changes:))

[TrevorB]

My friend and I started with ~45 small discus from Majestic. They're all dead. That includes the original 30 plus the replacements we got for ones that died quickly. This was my first try with discus, so it may not all be with his stock. But you have to question someone who advocates the use of sooooo many chemicals. Followed his directions exactly. Used the Kent product to lower pH (which takes a ton when you start with extremely hard water). Used Jungle Fungus Eliminator to help "acclimate the new fish" and weekly as advised. Used Quick Cure after every WC. Used amoxicillan when they got sick .. etc etc you get the point. He seems like a nice guy, but I think he's pushing out sickly stock...

I did manage to keep one alive for awhile. Then upon introducing new discus to the tank from a site sponser, they also became infected with the same bacterial junk.... Ok fast forward to today. I use a mix of RO and my tap water, do nothing to adjust pH, add zero chemicals and I have 5 healthy discus (from same site sponser, 2 of which survived the initial bacterial exposure)...

This probably isn't what you wanted to hear especially if the 60 discus are paid for, but you wanted an honest opinion of the seller...

Trevor

[Cosmo]

I'm not familiar with the seller you are referring to, but IMO adding chemicals to tap water is almost always a good recipe for disaster. Timbo gave you some right on responses to some of your remarks :)

ALWAYS QT for at least six weeks - longer is better ;)


Jim

[LizStreithorst]

I agree with what everyone has said about adjusting the water. It is not only unnecessary it is potentialy harmful.

I am familiar with Majestic. IMO, it would be difficult to find a worse seller. I guess it's too late to change your mind since they're paid for.

Be sure to QT these Discus. You sould use seperate equipment on their tanks when you do your WC. This is to portect your Angels from what pathogens the Discus might carry every bit as much as to protect the Discus.

[Tolak]

Holy responses, this is great! I’ll try to respond to everyone who took the time to look over my topic I sequence, hope I don’t miss anything.

Bastalker; dGH 11, dKH 6. Cleaning out the tank & sterilizing isn’t a problem, typical fishroom activity. I thought that pH was nonsense, all I can figure is that’s the pH they were grown out in. It also makes me wonder about their bio filtration, at a lower pH ammonia converts to ammonium, cycling problem solved, no bio filtration needed. I plan on aging the water from the beginning, then slowly acclimating them to tap from the hose, just like most any of my other tanks. The 4 to 6 weeks thing is what other club members have done to bring in fish for club auctions & swaps. This is to make sure they are healthy & eating before being resold.

Poconogal; I’ve heard of the problems related to keeping angels & discus, sterilizing isn’t a problem. As far as cycling I’ve used cycled sponge filters in with newly swimming angel fry that start out in a sterilized 10-gallon for hatching & growout. I believe biological exclusion comes in to play with the cycled sponge filters. I’m sure I could sterilize the tank, and clean the sponge filters with some dechlored tap. Set up the tank with the sponge filters and add enough ammonia to bring it to 5ppm. In 24 hours I’ll have no ammo or nitrites, with nitrates. I tried this a couple of years back cloning tanks.

Architect1; Thanks for the welcome, I’ve looked at other discus sites, this seems to be the best one, what a huge knowledge base.

Timbo; The main reason I’m running peat is that I don’t think dropping fish that are probably acclimated to a pH of 6.0 to 6.4 into water that’s 7.7 is a good idea. I do plan on keeping them at 7.7; it just doesn’t seem like a good idea to add pH shock to shipping stress. I don’t believe in adding scoops of chemicals that I don’t have experience with into a tank, I’m familiar with peat having used it in the past, and feel much more comfortable with it. As with all fish I try to breed, I start with tap water with no adjustments, I think fresh water, the proper diet, and a quiet area for the tank without commotion is the best starting spot. Ro would be a future option if I were having hatching problems. Thank you for the welcome as well!

TrevorB; This is the info I’m looking for, and partially what I was worried about. Majestic knows this is a club buy, and we’re hoping that they will want to make sure they get a good reputation with the club and send us some quality fish. I was talking to another club member this morning who breeds corys & plecs, his buddy had a bad experience with this seller. They both do a lot of dealing with Aquabid, and said either people love this guy, or hate him. I hope our experience seesaws towards the love end. I also do not believe in medicating fish unless needed, developing my own flavor of a drug resistant strain of bacteria is not one of my goals as a breeder. If this doesn’t work out I’m only out $200, not something to re-mortgage the house over. If it goes to crap I’m glad I’m only getting 20. Thank you for your honest opinion, this is the sort of thing I need to hear.

Cosmo; I qt everything new, even if I know the person & have seen their setup. I also disagree with the use of chemicals, but thought perhaps there was something new I didn’t know about.

LizStreithorst; Another thumbs down for Majestic, that’s ok, live & learn. I’ve always believed trying to adjust pH & hardness of tap water is tricky at best, deadly at worst. The furthest I’ve ever gone with tap water is running some peat, or adding baking soda or Epsom salt when hatching bbs. I use separate water change equipment for most every tank; the only ones that get shared are between angel growout tanks from the same spawn. I have separate pvc ends for draining, they do attach to the same hose. Fill hose sits above the tank, never touches it. I’m sort of a spazz about cross contamination.

Thank you everyone for responding, this helps big time. I’m a little apprehensive about the seller, but I guess we’ll find out next week and afterwards. I’m going to e-mail a link to this site & topic to the other two club members who are going in on this purchase, with any luck they’ll register & add any comments or questions.

John