HELP!!!! PLEASE!!!!!!

[Rpj]

Hi attaching pic's. Shipped in fish lost 15 of 20 (freaking) they were very sick when they got here with 2 doa's. Now tanks not involved have got it, so some how I've cross contaminated. My big guys are sick(aagggghhh). The Ph 6.8,ammonia, nitrates 0. Have done fungus clear for a treatment, now binox(same med's) and salt. Spoke with long term discus breeder that is very knowledgable and he thought it was discus plague and he recommended the treatment. They started out with clamped fins, breathing hard and very dark. Shimming, and rapid swimming. Than they started dying off rapidly. Within 2 days!! Started a treatment of metro and salt immediately, than paniced and changed to quick cure for a day. Thats when I contacted the breeder who said do the binox, which wasn't available so I did fungus clear which was close to binox. Finally found some binox and did it. So far its 1 dose of fungus clear 2 days 25% water change and 1 dose of binox. It's been 5 days and they haven't died yet but don't look great either? They are eating although not too well. Only 2 of original 20 left from quarantine tank
HELP PLEASE :confused:

[Kindredspirit]

Hang in there ~ I am so sorry for this ~ but in the interim pl do not add any more meds til someone more experienced comes along....if possible ~ It seems you have been adding quite a few as of late ~ totally understandable:)

You need to finish a whole course of meds ~ esp before starting another....I am sure someone will pop along soon ~ In the meantime answer some questions that may be helpful to them...like how big is your tank? Is it bb or not...was your QT tank cycled? I was curious how you thought they were sick when they arrived....and not just simply stressed? Lots of fresh water and salt ~ no lights may be all they needed....

Have you contacted the seller of these fish to let him know the status of their arrival? I would do that asap as well ~


Marie~ :balloon:

[Rpj]

Hi Thanks I know I paniced after reading posts and using some diagnostic charts. The tank is a 265 gallon. The little guys were in a 75 bare bottom. They were very sick, the tank had been cycled and was doing well. PH 6.8, 0 nitrates, 0 ammonia. There were 2 doa's and than 4 or so on their sides. The bags were cold. I warmed them up and did a slow acclimation over 4 hours. Within 2 days they were dropping like flys. Did metro and salt for 3 days but didn't help. Put them in a 30 gallon to cheapen the meds and did quick cure which the breeder recommended for a day more dropping off. Then someone told me they tought it was bacterial and I did furazone light for 2 days. With big water changes in each case.Contacted a breeder that is well respected and he recommended the treatment mentioned in my post?? Thanks hopefully someone will respond soon, it's killing me, Thanks

[tpastrana]

Hi RpJ,
I am sorry for your loss, I just read your post and something you said in it reminded me of a problem I recently had with a delivery of one of my fish. He had come with hardly any water in the bag and also very cold water that was actually in the bag. I too had contaminated my main tank by not cleaning my python tube good enough. I also had used fungus eliminator, which is a slight milder form of binox. It too did not help my fish, but it did keep them alive longer. I had started out with treating them with Quick Cure for a 5 day treatment, then the fungus eliminator. While those treatments werent totally workng I was also doing salt dips. My fish were not getting better but slowly getting worse. I had alot of help and suggestions from a couple of really experienced SD members. If it wasnt for them I know I would of lost all my fish. The only thing that really concerns me for you is if it is bacterial, it moves super fast specially if your heat is really high. What finally cured my fish from this disaster was daily major water changes and Maracyn 1&2. I also used maracide with it. With in 2 days I saw a difference in my fish. By looking at your pics, It looks like the beginnings of what mine looked like before it got really bad. I know you are freaking out right now, because that is exactly how I felt when this happened to me. But like Marie say's. You must finish a treatment before jumping to another. Also, this is from my personal experience. The people on SD are so very experienced here, and probably could give you much better advice than I. I just wanted to throw this out there for you to keep in mind. Good luck

Teresa

[Kindredspirit]

Well I know that Metro should be 400mg to 500mg per 10 gallons every 8 hours. Daily w/c once a day and dose straight after is how I do it and then 8 or 12 hours later (no w/c). I Do this for 3 days, you can raise the water temp to around 92 it may help the metro and it can stimulate appetite. Add extra air too ~ Leave the temp elevated for a week after the metro treatment and slowly bring it back to around 86. Quick Cure has Formalin and Malachite Green I believe....for external such as flukes...


Bacterial infections are indicated by yellow and/or green poops I think...but if they are not eating...I am sorry I am not much help ~

Hang in there~


Marie ~ :balloon:

[Rpj]

Hi thanks for your help. So to recap you used maracide, marycn 1 and 2 all at the same time? major(?) water changes ? 2 days for recovery? Thanks

[pcsb23]

Before doing any further treatments I would do as big a w/c as possible and run activated carbon on the new water for an hour or two to remove as much as possible of the existing meds to give a clean start.

It is highly unlikely that this is the so called Discus Plague. What you describe sounds like a bacterial infection. Teresa was right about using Maracyn 1 & 2 together, furan 2 is anotehr good candidate here too. Keep the temps low, around 82 to 84f (28c to 29c) and keep the lights off. Feed sparringly if at all for a day or two and make sure there is decent surface agitation (airstone or similar). Treat for 10 to 12 days and finish the course. Do daily 50% w/c and redose after each w/c.

If at all possible get the fish into a BB hospital tank, the meds may well have bad effects on your plants. Also treating with meds in a tank with plants and a substrate is always less effective.

hth,

[Rpj]

Hi ok, is marcyn better than furan. The active ingredients of binox is nitrofurazone which is the same as furan? Thanks

[Graham]

Furan is better that Maracyn/Erythromycin...it's better absorbed.


You need to pic a med and stay the course with it. There's no magic bullets where everyone is going back to healthy overnight.

Do as Paul has suggested and clean that water up from the chemical soup they're in.

I don't want to confuse things here but in your 1st post you mentioned that you had cross contamintated and your big guys are sick.............unusual for healthy fish, in good water to end up with a bacterial infection...so this tells me possible parasite. What you describe could also be Costia or even Chilodinella, especially since they are dying so fast........do you know anyone with a microscope...is there a koi club around?

[Rpj]

Hi no soup anymore, did a massive change on sunday and filtered with magnum and carbon for several hours. Than did as recommended with the binox and salt. Had done massives before each change when jumping also. But sticking to the binox which has been the course for the last 5 days.
Thanks

[pcsb23]

Hope they show some improvement soon.

[Rpj]

Hi me too stressing me out big time!!!!

[Rpj]

Hi everyone please check out the pic's and see wht you think. I did a water change this morning and its their 3 rd treatment not much if any improvement????

[Kindredspirit]

Where are the pics?



Marie ~ http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/11/11_6_9.gif

[Rpj]

Hi meant the old ones I'll take somemore this afternoon and post. They are hiding since I had the python in the tank. They are up at the top still in the corner hiding, had the lights on for water change wanted to make sure I was getting organics at bottom(some dead plants). Will post again this afternoon. Thanks

[billeagan]

Looks like a bacterial infection to me.

I would hit with Fungus Eliminator or potassium permagnate.

[Rpj]

Hi ok, using binox which almost the same as fungus eliminator chemically. Thanks appreciate everyones idea's

[Rpj]

Hi here they are today.

[tpastrana]

qa
Hi here they are today.

Hi Rpj,
I am looking at your pic's, the water seems very clear for having fungus eliminator in there? Did you just do a water change? I assume you have no carbon in your filters right?? Lights out? I know for me fungus eliminator or binox worked very well in a lower PH. I cant remember off the top of my head what the best parameters are for it to be most effective. I had to stop using it about 10 day's of treatment. I had a hard time keeping my PH low enough for the meds to work properely for me. I pretty much completed the course anyway. That's why I switched to the Maracyns. Maybe someone here can let you know what the levels should be to work best for you.

[Rpj]

Hi using binox, makes it yellow, no carbon, will check ph again. It was 6.8 Thanks

[pcsb23]

Teres's point about carbon is a good one, make sure you have no carbon or other absorbants in the filter.

Some of the fish look a little ropy, as I don't know what constitutes binox and have never used it I cannot comment on dosing regimes. According to what I have read it should be a suitable product to treat these fish.

You have to give these meds time to work, a typical course for some of these drugs is 12 days, jumping from one med to another causes more harm than good in 99.9% of cases.

At this time its very difficult to know what the best thing to do is, I would give it time and do some research on binox.

[brewmaster15]

I agree with Paul,
There is one change I would make.. actually an addition.... Binox is basically Nitrofurazone. Its a good general anitbiotic..... but it works best when combined with Furazlidone... another good antibacterial.. These are the two meds plus methylene blue that are in Furan 2.... I would not stop the Nitrofurazone at this point...it needs time to work..but I would switch to Furan 2 as its more effective, IME. Furazlidone has properties that nitrofurazone lacks (anti-parasitic FOR SOME CRITTERS)

Jehmco.com has these products. They also sell something called bi-furan which is just the two antibacterial ingredients without the methylene blue.

Its always a guess as to which medication is best here.. These fish may be suffering from a parasite as the primary problem and what you see is secondary infection, hard to tell without a lab test (are there any labs or colleges with a bio dept near you?) or a microscope. One thing thats for sure... jumping from med to med is not the way to go based on guesses as to whats going on.

Hth,
al...

[CHEWAL]

Hi Al
I agree with you on the treatment but it does appear to be a parasite problem Dont you think that it might be a good idea to treat them with a little coppersafe to be sure?

[brewmaster15]

Hi Butch,
Like I said earlier...Its very possible theres parasites involved... With all the treatments the fish have gotten so far, its really hard to tell whats going on.....:( best guesses are still just guesses.:(:(

To answer your question, yes...copper safe could be used here as well. If it is used, care just needs to be taken that levels remain constant after water changes....

-al

[Kindredspirit]

Hey Rp ~ I got your pm ~ here is my link to when my fish were ill ~ I do not know if it is one in the same ~

but ~

Pl stick with one med and finish it ~ like Paul said...some take 10-12 days to see improvement ~

Hang in there:)

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?t=50775&page=21


Marie ~ :coffee: