Tefe's

[russell]

Hi All
Having done the routine of breeding and raisng Discus I am now taking on 4 Mature Tefe's,F's. Running 100 gal tank with 30 gal sump.semi planted plenty of bog wood Dappled lighting & floating plants. Have got the Ph settled at 6 which is the water they came over in and the supplier has matched the Ph. so should have no problem. What TDS do you recomend for wild Tefe's? would 100 to 150 be ok? that = 3 to 5 hardness. any advice from Tefe keepers greatly appreciated.
Taking charge in a weeks time so time to make necessary adjustments

[Apistomaster]

I think your water coditions are acceptablefor these discus. The only other change that could be made is decided whether to leave your water as is or add peat or blackwater extracts to further simulate their native water. Something I am fairly neutral on.

The color and pattern is very much like that of what used to be sold as "Peruvian Greens" that I would receive years ago before more defining regional names became into more common use. They are pretty discus but in a more subtle way than the more rare rsg discus. They are still a nice wild discus and I think of them as being the more common greens. Many of those with brigher colors are just the few rarer exceptional color variations. The main difference being price. This variety usually would be 1/3 to 1/2 as expensive as the most highly colored fish.
I todays retail prices these might be ~$40. Whereas an exceptional rsg night be $85 to $100 or more each. They are slightly more difficult to breed than blue/ browns. For actual breeding conditions you may find that simulated blackwater may be helpful.

[russell]

Thanks
Yes they are Peruvians F's. about 7 inch

[russell]

What are your thoughts on Peat? I have used it before & found it hard to control. When first added to say filter ,it certainly does alter the hardness, but as it gets exhausted it rapidly declines , I use R/O and control hardness this way. I know peat is beneficial but it is awkward to contro;. I have an R/O running to Sump and control the hardness by a continuus trckle overflow. for breeding I get the TDS down to 100 which is 3 hardness, should I continue with this or add a small amount of peat?

[tacks]

Just wanted to say HAPPY ST. Patricks Day Ed

[Darren's Discus]

Hey Russell,
Nice greens i to think they are more like the peruvians that were around years ago ,I had a few of them good fish keep us posted on there progress and yes go the green happy st paddy's day !


cheers and guiness to you all !

[russell]

Yes They Are Peruvians, Having a bit of a prob with Ph, Suddenly can't get it below 6.8/ running Co2 but at full throttle with the bubble counter ( almost) it stays at 6.8. Should I try Peat in conjunction TDS is 200 = 6 shouild be able to get it down to 100=3 with more R/O. % days before I take them over so still time for adjustments????
Thank's from Paddy I am sure he will have a good day!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Rod]

What are your thoughts on Peat? I have used it before & found it hard to control. When first added to say filter ,it certainly does alter the hardness, but as it gets exhausted it rapidly declines , I use R/O and control hardness this way. I know peat is beneficial but it is awkward to contro;. I have an R/O running to Sump and control the hardness by a continuus trckle overflow. for breeding I get the TDS down to 100 which is 3 hardness, should I continue with this or add a small amount of peat?

Yes i can imagine you would have all sorts of control issues useing that technique Russell....instead why don't you try useing the peat in the water treatment tank only. When you have the water the way you want it, take the peat out and do water changes as usual. i'm sure you'll find it very easy to control then.

Rod:)

[russell]

Hi Rod
Here is my set up which has given no trouble over last 6 years. the main tank flows to sump. through bio balls then sponge and then wool.
I have an overflow on sump which runs to waste( Trickle) which alows the R/O to run continuosly & it keeps the TDS at the level I require. It has worked well keeping Ph steady at 7 to 7.2.no problems. it is just the fact that the Tefe's will I assume require a Ph of about 6.5 with a low TDS. ( am I wrong?) I can run peat via a stocking in one of the overflow compartments. as I heard that the peat balls are betteer than the Fibre and last longer?
The only reason I run the Co2 is because the tank is semi planted.

[Apistomaster]

Plain ordinary and literally garden variety Canadian peat moss is the best. It needs to be replace at aporoximately 10 day intervals. It will have little effect unless the TDS is lowered to 100ppm/l or less. You can change the TDS from 200 to 100 TDS in one water change and the discus will not have an adverse reaction. It is only at the lower ranges of TDS that peat will help lower the pH much. Once down to 50ppm/l it should be able to bring the pH down to your target. As it is now, only the CO2 will bring the pH down but not without danger. It is entirely possible to have saturated O2 levels and still lose fish from excess CO2. With a lower buffering capacity the CO2 is more cost efficient as it takes less to lower pH and still promote plant growth.

A true simulation of the natural evironment of the wild greens is not conducive to plant growth. Peat stained dark water and a pH of 5.0.

If just wanting to keep them healthy they will do fine at 100ppm/l and no peat. It may be helpful to use the lower values for breeding.
Blackwater additives are expensive and do not produce the benefits of peat.
I just can't see spending so much money on something I will be flushing down the drain with large frequent water changes. You can buy a lot of peatmoss from the garden center for the cost of a 16 oz. bottle of blackwater extract.

[russell]

Thank's Can't get Canadian peat moss over here. does it also go under the name of Spaghnum Moss? Managed to get the Ph to 6.6 and holding. the return flow was breaking the water surface and I think driving off th Co2?
Would 6.6 surfice for the Tefe's
Russ

[russell]

Just an update

They are Tefe's straight from the source, F's , are feeding well and spotting up nicely, the fins were a bit worse for wear but are coming on o.k.

[Ed13]

Hi Rod
Here is my set up which has given no trouble over last 6 years. the main tank flows to sump. through bio balls then sponge and then wool.

I really like the look and feel of the tank and stand, something very nice!. If only a second tank could stand were the sump is ;)

And those Tefe are REALLY nice, good job!:)

[russell]

Thanks Ed
There were originaly 3 tanks along the top. but after I had done with breeding I decided to keep 1 and use a second as a 20 gal sump, makes life a lot easier and maintenance to minimum. the Tefe's seem to love the set up. just a springkling of sand and Stricta floating on the top makes them feel secure

[Darren's Discus]

Russell,
the set up looks very nice and the fish are looking good !


cheers

[tacks]

Very nice set up. Your Tefes look great I have 4 on order and I hope they are as nice as yours. I dont use peat though but keep my PH at 6.5 and my TDS are higher, But my tank is heavly planted. Good luck Ed

[russell]

The only prob is that as they came straight from the source they wont touch dry food. at present all they will eat is bloodworm. won't touch the beefheart mix, trying to get some red wrigglers in.

[Apistomaster]

Hi Russell,
Just checked in to follow up.
You seem to be doing well and your fish are beautiful. I haven't had any discus that large in many years. I buy smaller ones and grow them out.
Your filter and substrate is very similar to what I use in my Heckel display tank. A very trouble free system.
I do have most of my Echinodorus in pots but the back half is a glass silicone 3 inch high planter box with the front half barely covered to conceal the glass.
Larry W.

[russell]

Hi Larery: Can you post a pic of plant set up, At the moment I have a fine sand sprinkling substrate, tried BB but they kept chasing there reflection even with a dark mat under base. the plants I have is Stricta whick floats giving a nice overhead securiyy to the fish and they brows through this looking for Morsels also a link to your Heckle pics
Regards
Russ

[Apistomaster]

Go to the Heckel Project subforum and you will find all my Heckel photos and you will be able to see some showing the planter box. You may have to go back to the beginning but we have only been running it a couple months and Heckels aren't everyone's favorite wild discus so there is less there than the main wild discus forum.
The Greens and Heckels share very similar biotopes actually. The differences are species, range, and the stubborness of Heckels to breed in captivity.

I like H. stricta but in the long run the Echinodorus species seem to do best in my water and light so I use mostly E. bleheri, E. amazonicus, E. parviflora var. "Tropica" and I have one of the red oval leaved hybrids that does especially well. Over time I either get the runners or just split a large plant in two and have become self sufficient for all my tanks.
I recently uprooted an amazonicus mother plant I had planted int the box and potted it for rejuvenation. It mus have had 5lbs of gravel cling to its roots that had to be shaken off to do a root trim.

I pot most of my Swords so I can control the fertilization and move them around and I use mostly clear containers so they blend in to the surroundings.

Most of my aquariums are bare bottom but I still like my plants.

[russell]

Thank's for all your comments.This is a week later,as you can see the finage has come back and they are spotting up nicely. definate Tef'e RSG's and not Peruvians as first thought .Feeding well and always foraging through the floating Stricta ,no sign of nerves and eager to feed from hand, have what seems to be a possible pair but early days. no bickering they seem quite ammiable to each other.

[Apistomaster]

Hi Ruussel,
The common names don't mean much anyway. What matters is that you have green discus that look lkw the variety you wanted to keep.

If they never eat beefheart it would be OK but it is just because they are large adults that they take more time to aquire the taste for a new food. Beefheart is messy, especially in planted tanks but if you continue offering them a small amount from time to time along with frozen bloodworms they will gradually learn it is food and will begin to eat it. Beefheart is a good food because it seems to help the discus bulk up. As for all fish, variety is always a good idea in diets. I use it very little with my Heckels, more of a treat once or twice a week. Otherwise they are fed frozen bloodworms, live blackworms, Tetra Color Bits and earthworm sticks which makes up about 30% of their diet. They even eat algae wafers.

I have about 4 species of Hypancistrus or Peckoltia Plecos(~18) that are very efficient at cleaning up particles of these high protein foods that the discus are fed. They are better in this respect than Corydoras. I have a single large male common Busgy Nose Pleco in their tank as my algae eater and that one is able to keep the plant leaves and glass fairly algae free. My balance is such that algae is not a big problem anyway but this integrated clean up team is both helpful and are attractive interesting fish in their own right.

Larry W.

Larry

[russell]

Hi Larry
Thought I would post a week on. now 2 weeks in tank & taking Beefheart!!! Where do you get the worm stick's ? who makes them ? would be very interested!! The fins are comming back nicely and there are signs of 2 pairs.
they are also going Olive green, will keep updating

[cbkok97]

Hi Russell,

The color of your fishes look so nice. Congratulation!

Cheers,
Brandon

[Apistomaster]

Russell,
I buy earthworm flake and sticks from www.aquaticeco.com
I go through 3-Five pound bags/year.
There is at least one other source I've heard of but I can't remember the name of the company.
Larry

[russell]

An update.
Must be about 3 months on. have put on about an inch overall. have been a few colour changes. Active and feeding well. always foraging. seem to have turned out well. I now have the chance of two Wild Heckles about the same size 6-7 inch and am caught in two minds . Tefe & Heckle???
Whats areour thoughts on this??

[Jeff B]

Looking good Russell ... personally I don't think you can beat a good Tefe.

Re : dry foods / sticks etc. ... here's another option for you.

http://www.ta-aquaculture.co.uk/

[russell]

Thank's Jeff
Have placed order!!!

[Apistomaster]

Hi Russell,
I think it was wise to get more greens. If you hope to breed wild discus keeping the largest number of the same species is the way to have the highest chances of getting pairs. All Discus are shoaling fish and recreating this in captivity makes them more at ease and each species has a different water chemistry that they have evolved in. One species and one water type makes everything easier for the aquarist.

I told you they would develop a taste for the beefheart blend if you just gave them a little time. Just continue to do your best to get and keep them on a variety of foods. Given half a chance discus are pretty easy fish to keep happy and healthy.

Just one more thought. If you still wish to use peat check around and find out what peat the Killifish breeders use in your region. It will also be suitable for use with Discus.

[russell]

Hi Larry
Thank's . They are doing fine. and putting on weight. the usual prob is the Water, It's a fact that the water over here is cr*p. and is a struggle. The Tefe's are happy with the conditions, it's me that isn't. It's a double edged sword. Ph settles out at 7.6 to 8.!!! peat is not an option. I am using diluted Phosphoric to get the Ph down to 6.5. the trouble is it also lowers the Kh to 0 to 1. the TDs is 130 (4Gh). getting the Ph any lower would result in a Kh of 0. The phosphoric is very managable and easy. and my preferd method but for every pro there is a con.
I am cutting the RO with about 10% pre membrane to give it some guts.
the Ph is Stable no problems there. It's just an extreemly low Kh.
Will a Kh of 0 do any damage? as stated The Ph is stable
Regards
Russ

[Jeff B]

Hi Russell,
Glad to hear your fish are doing so well .... Re : your ph ... I would have thought that so long as your ph is stable ... which is the most important thing, regardless of your kh levels.

[russell]

Thanks Jeff
I keep being told that a low Kh can lead to a Ph crash!! although I have doubted it. perhaps with Co2 yes, but I am controling it via Phosphoric,as you know is the Mildest of the Acids. If low Kh is not going to pose a problem I can get the Ph down to the mid 5's. what is the oppinions????

Just thought I would post two pic's to show colour variation.and one with a dramatic colour change
It's the last one. there are a few minute Red spots appearing. All are about 7 inch

[Jeff B]

I've got my Tefes in a ph of 5 without any problems whatsoever if that helps.

[russell]

What is your Kh & TDS
Russ

[Jeff B]

I've not measured it recently ... but it's usually just about zero at a guess. One drop normally turns it the other colour. Hot off the press TDS = 84.

[Jeff B]

I'm not infering anything at all here Russell so please don't take this the wrong way ... it's just that I found this to be a really good read.

http://www.drhelm.com/aquarium/chemistry.html

[russell]

Thanks Jeff
No offence & a good read. But as you know there are always conflicting ideas. I see no reason why I can't drop mine to mid 5's.
any pics of your Tefe's?

[Jeff B]

I posted some photos 2 or 3 weeks ago ... there's a few more towards the bottom of the first page.
To be honest Russell ... they look even bigger and better now .... http://www.discusfishuk.com/discusfishforum//style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?t=57432

[russell]

Just aquired the 5th Tefe. that makes the collection complete, although I was tempted by 2 beautiful Heckles.

[Apistomaster]

Hi Russell,
Looks like another nice addition. The grass is always greener, I have Heckels and am wishing for Greens. Hey, At least Greens do breed a little easier. Nice to think there is a chance.
It should be easy to keep that pH in the ideal range for greens if your plans include breeding since you are using RO water. It is easy to have the pH to drop too low if you are not careful. I have been experimenting with Alder Cones soaking in the RO reservoir to lower the pH without increasing the TDS like all the acids will. and I am working with some fish in the pH 4.5 range. (Not Discus). Crenicichla regani and Coral Red Pencils are set up to spawn in the RO water with Alder Cone and aslso Keta-Peat Nuggets.
Green Discus do prefer a lower pH than wild Browns and Blues but slightly higher than Heckels. Not necessary for maintenance but desireable for breeding.

I promised some shots of the planter box I am using in my planted Discus tank and here in all their imperfection are a few.
Photo 1/3
http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t41/apistomaster/Heckel3.jpg
Photo 2/3
http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t41/apistomaster/Heckels0001rse.jpg
photo3/3 old but shows an overview
http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t41/apistomaster/SturisharassingHeckels067.jpg
The onery Sturisoma redeemed themselves this morning.
http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t41/apistomaster/P6090036.jpg

[russell]

Hi Larry

Great shots, you seem to have a nice Biotope going and great for the Sterisoma . how is the hatching rate for them? Will try the Alder cones in the near future, at present have about 500 Almond leaves to get through !!!
Are they Wild Altums? You seem to have the Midas touch. The Heckles look fantstic, what region did they come from?
At the moment myself and a few others are getting the Irish site more and more interested with the Wild scene and it is starting to establish itself over here. Fishkeeping is still in it's infancy but getting better and stronger by the months. Once again thank's for letting us see your set up. great work
regards
russ

[Apistomaster]

Hi Russell.
I've been admiring your fish and tank, too. I finally broke down and bought electronic meters since I began messing around with very low TDS and pH >4.8. Things can go bad very quickly in the lower range and color titration test method just isn't much help in the low range.
We both are using wet/dry filters of considerable capacity.
I had four of these Greens last Summer:
http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t41/apistomaster/WildGreenDiscus003.jpg
I consider my display tank just a planted discus tank. It is nothing like a normal Heckel habitat. The hybrid design of half planted and half bare bottom is very easy to keep clean and a bit more interesting than my bare bottom only discus tanks.
The Heckels are supposed to be from the Lagos near the confluence of the Rio Branco and the Rio Negro.

Those were young wild Peruvian Scalares in with the Heckels. They and all the Sturisoma were removed from the Heckel tank and replaced with six Crenicichla regani. Presently two pairs of C. regani are set up separately in an attempt to breed them. The Sturisoma are in their own tank although there are about 100 albino Ancistrus fry that I want out of there as soon as the Sturisoma eggs hatch.

I have been off on a Pleco bender just over a year now, trying to get them figured out. Only the Sturisoma have just begun spawning. I spotted the first fry the very day before I photographed spawn #2. They hid their first spawn on a piece if driftwood which was completely removed at least twice during incubation period.
This will be my first chance to knowingly try my hand at raising a spawn. Only a few fry from the first spawn were discovered.

I traded a bunch of my homegrown discus for five L46 F1 Juveniles this Spring. That gives me about 10 assted Hypancistrus, Panaque and Peckoltia I am trying to breed. I like the L134, L204 and L333 quite a bit. They are the closest to being able to spawn if the spirit moves them. The Hypancistrus contradens-old L201 are another pretty species. As a group of fishes, they seem to do well with Discus.

[russell]

Hi Larry
Yes I think the electronic Ph Meter is a great help, being able to measure .00 ,it gives you an early indication as to the increase or decrease a lot earlier, and is also more acurate than colour comparison, especialy the lower ranges.I have a couple of Plec's H zebra. 1 true and 1 columbian unfortunately both males. but they get on. also 1 Ancisrus Clara.

[Apistomaster]

Russell ,
That's a little different Hypancistrus. I have a another version that is like a regular zebra except it has bright black on white stripes that run transversely instead of longitudinal like the true H. zebra. If I can get a photo, I'll post it in a new thread under other fish. It was mixed in with one of my shipments of L66/L333.
I lost eight Ancistrus claro fry but I plan on getting that species again. They were a little small to buy at 3/4 inch. It is a very cool bushy nose, the smallest of them all as I understand it, and their gold spots can be quite striking. One of the best of all plecos imo, due to their small maximum size ~2-3/4 inches, also because the are easy to breed and because they are good algae eaters.

I'll continue to check back in. I stopped receiving the customary notices from this site some for time back despite double checking the options I selected.

[russell]

Hi all

A last photo to show the change in size and colour over the last months. the bottom is the latest the other 4 are the original.