Low Tech Startup help needed

[grego]

So I have read and read here for a couple of months but still have a couple of questions:confused: I just setup my 120 gal tank - 4x2x2 - with flourite about 2 inches and about 1 inch of white sand on top of that. I have one coralife lamp with two 65w 50/50 bulbs. I purchased and placed in the substrate 3 Large (20 inches tall) amazon swords, 3 16 inches crypts (can't remember name but starts with C), 2 onions, 5 giant val, 3 anubias barteri?, and a patch of java fern on some driftwood.

The tank has been running for 4 days now. I do not want to add Co2. Here are the questions: Should I add some rummy nose tetras now or wait? Should I add some Sterbai Cory's now or wait? If I am not adding fish how will I get the ammonia in there for the cycle? I have read conflicting info on planted tanks and cycling so I want to be sure I am not wasting my time but I also doon't want to hurt any fish. Is my light sufficient or should I get to the 1.5 WPG that many suggest? I am running the light for 10 hours - good? Should I add some undergravel fert sticks even though I have the flourite? How will I know I need to add ferts to the water column? I would like to start adding some discus in 4-6 weeks once things settle down a little. Also what would be some good low growing plants plants for this setup ( I already have the taller plants but didn't get any smaller ones). Thanks a LOT for this board and any help you can give. Grego.

[tpl*co]

I'd swap out those 50/50 bulbs for straight plant growing bulbs, maybe 6500K. 50% of the bulbs you have is actinic, which aren't good for plants. With the plant lights, you'll have around 1 watt/gallon.

Can't help you on the cycling question. I did a fishless cycle with ammonia on my tank even before the fish and plants.

Tina

[Alight]

OK, you have enough light for the plants you have. I'd cut back on the light on time, if you start seeing excess algae.

For the Swords, some jobe plant spikes would be helpful. One full stick broken into 4 pieces and placed around each sword.

The rest of the plants will get all of the ferts they need from the water column.

You will need to fertilize while your plants are getting established, before you add your fish. I'd stick with keeping the fert levels fairly low (nitrates 10 ppm, phosphates 1 ppm) to start with.

Best to give your plants a month or so to get established before adding fish.

As to cycling, those on the plantedtank.net site advise against doing any fishless cycling in a planted tank.

The jobe plant spikes may liberate a small amount of ammonia which will help establish the nitrifying bacteria.

Still, if it were me, I hedge my bets and add some clear ammonia to the tank (a small amount at a time) a couple of weeks before adding fish to make sure that enough nitrifying bacteria have gotten established to take care of the fish waste. Monitor what happens to the ammonia (how fast it goes to zero).

Plants love ammonia, but algae likes it even more, which is why it's generally a bad idea to add ammonia to a planted tank. You will certainly grow a bumper crop of algae if you do it.

I don't believe a low tech planted tank like yours can take care of the ammonia of a large addition of fish, and with Discus, you will certainly be adding a large load, because it's a bad idea to add just 1 or 2 Discus to a tank at a time. This is the reason I'd still do the clear ammonia thing before adding a bunch of Discus.

A better idea might be to leave your planted tank alone, and just cycle your filter in a bucket, out side your tank. This way, you can add all of the ammonia you want to the bucket, and not affect your tank at all. Add the filter to your tank when you add your fish.

There are threads on this site on how to cycle your filter in a bucket if you do a search.

[Apistomaster]

If you add some rummynoses and they don't die your tank is safe.
Rummy's are very sensitive fish. Canaries in the mine.

I agree that your 50/50 lights should be exchanged.

I have come to like the Nutrifin Plant Grow Sticks. They last about a year.
Jobe sticks are used successfully but I don't know how often new ones need to added.

You should be able to add some fish now and more in a week. Try those Rummynoses, they will tell you everything you need to know.

I use mostly sponge filters, bare bottom tanks and a potted Sword Plant.

I regularly do "cold starts" using a filter that has been an a old tank and 25% old water.

I breed discus and this method has been successfully used for many years.

[Polar_Bear]

I disagree strongly about the 50-50 bulbs, they grow plants fine, what they don't seem to grow well is algae. If the crypt you are referring to happens to be C. ciliata take it out, it will not stand the high heat of a discus tank, 78F seems to be the highest temp it will stand IME. The photo is of a 55 gallon lit by 4 x 65 watt 50-50 CF bulbs. The plants were all very small when first put into this tank.

[Ed13]

I disagree strongly about the 50-50 bulbs, they grow plants fine, what they don't seem to grow well is algae. If the crypt you are referring to happens to be C. ciliata take it out, it will not stand the high heat of a discus tank, 78F seems to be the highest temp it will stand IME. The photo is of a 55 gallon lit by 4 x 65 watt 50-50 CF bulbs. The plants were all very small when first put into this tank.

The 50/50 bulbs might grow plants, but they will for the most part utilize the daylight part of the light wasting the so called actinic(most actinic bulbs are realy not). He only has ~130w of prob low par bulbs over 24" tall tank, might as well give the plants more efficient lighting spectrum, I do think that 130w are good enough for low light. For me 50/50 bulbs and 10k bulbs seem to grow much more algae, while 10 k works for others it hasn't worked for me. And in a low tech setup you want the plants doing the fighting with the algae not the hobbyist.

I agree on the Crypt, most of the grow better under 80F anyhow.

As far as stocking, I feel as long as 75% of the tank or more is planted and if at least 50% of those plants are in their submerged growth, then I give a week or two before even thinking of adding fish other than a clean up crew. Better if you only add the cleanup crew for the first month or so and feed the palnts nitrogen if neccesary, then slowly add your target fish.

[senso]

There are some great articles that have been written about cycling of planted tanks.

In short
- the 50/50 will work but the 6500 will be better for plants
-No need for CO2
- start lighting at about 7 ti 8 hours for the first three weeks and then increase slowly
- add additional Ferts into the tank SPARINGLY if at all in the first few weeks
- add clean up crew slowly over a 4 week period starting after two to three weeks (ottos, shrimp, SAE)
- After two months add corys
- Two weeks later add the rummy nose
- You are a good 12 weeks away from discus, if you would like to ensure that you have minimal problems.
Rushing the process may lead to an algae bloom

Have fun

[willbldrco]

My advice: If you don't already have test kits, get some to test the following:

NH3 (Ammonia)
NO2- (Nitrite)
NO3- (Nitrate)
PO4--- (Phosphate)

and then test the water 2-3 times a week while making adjustments according to the test results along the way. Once established, I find I only need to test my water about once every 2 weeks, which result in minor tweaks (added ferts, additional water change, etc).

Note: Ammonia (even at somewhat low levels - greater than 0.1mg/L) is damaging to both fish and plants. But since the beneficial-to-plants NO3- (Nitrate) originates from ammonia and water processed by bacteria, you do need a steady supply of ammonia for processing. Levels of ammonia should be zero in established aquariums, processed almost as soon as it's released by fish waste, but since yours is new, you'll be trying to get bacteria to process ammonia (along with oxygen) into first N02- (Nitrite, still toxic) and then into NO3- (Nitrate, harmless to fish at reasonable levels, beneficial to plants).

If you know the levels of these players, you can make good decisions on how to tweak the environment so that plants and fish will thrive. Following are the targets I use:

NH3 (ammonia): Target = 0 (for a mature tank)

Too high? For a mature tank, something is very wrong - water change. With a new tank, you probably don't have the bacteria needed to convert this to NO2-, so wait until you do

Too low? In my opinion, with a new tank containing plants I care about, I'd add fish before adding liquid ammonia
NO2- (Nitrite): Target = 0 (for a mature tank)

Too high? For a mature tank, something is very wrong - water change. With a new tank, you probably don't have the bacteria needed to convert this to NO3-, so wait until you do

Too low? You need a source of ammonia (fish) and some oxidizing bacteria (wait until they develop)
NO3- (Nitrate) Target = 2-3 ppm (for my mature tank - I like to starve algae, but maybe my plants too! Most others like to see about 5-10 ppm)

Too high? For a mature tank, water change or risk algae. At levels of 50ppm you risk damage to your fish. There is another (this time oxygen-less) bacterial process which will convert NO3- into molecular nitrogen (N2) which will simply bubble out of the aquarium, but I find that water changes help alot in keeping it low and when the plants take off, they consume most of it

Too low? You can add ferts. But you probably just need a source of ammonia/NO2- (fish) and some oxidizing bacteria (wait until they develop)
PO4--- (Phosphate) Target = 0.5 ppm (while not related to the Nitrogen cycle of ammonia/NO2/NO3, I find keeping an eye on this one is critical for plants without algae)

Too high? Water change

Too low? You can adjust with ferts, but I find enough is added via fish food/waste alone.

I also keep track of:

pH/KH (tells me my CO2 level): Target = 18-25 ppm
Fe (Iron): .1 ppm (higher levels result in beard algae for me)
K (Potassium): 10 ppm

I should note that I use CO2 injection. I hope this helps.
Regards,

Will

[Ed13]

Nice post! Is a very good practice to test your water
But one thing though, plants alone have the capacity to use and actually need NH3 (Ammonia) NO2- (Nitrite) NO3- (Nitrate)PO4(Phosphate) in order to metabolize carbohydrates for energy as a part of the photosyntesis
Beleive or not Amonia is much more easily absorbed and thus prefered by plants, folowed by nitrite and least the nitrate. So levels of 0 is not always good.:confused: Obviously is also good for alga and bad for fish but ;)

What is important is the balance between light, nutrients and CO2. My theory and practice is that is in this order of importance!

I guess what I'm trying to say is that every setup is different and succes depends on a bunch of variables some controllable and some not, like experience for example. Once you get to a certain level by looking, smelling and touching the water as well as behaviour you'll know whats happening in your tank, then again we are only human destined to comit errors;)

For what is worth all the post here sum it up(I think Alight's was prob the most useful) the rest falls in experience, luck and patience of the hobbyists
Good luck!

[willbldrco]

Beleive or not Amonia is much more easily absorbed and thus prefered by plants, folowed by nitrite and least the nitrate.

You are absolutely correct! Thanks for that info. I had assumed that plants take up the end product of the nitrogen cycle, nitrate, exclusively since that's the correlation I've seen between my tank's nitrate levels and algae blooms. But I did some research after reading your post and confirmed what you said, specifically that plants prefer to obtain their nitrogen via the ammonium ion (NH4+, ammonia plus a proton) over nitrates because it takes them less energy to obtain the nitrogen that way. If no NH4+ is available to plants, they will process nitrate - they just have to work harder. :)

There is a good explanation of this mechanism here:

http://www.aquabotanic.com/plants_and_biological_filtration.htm

I didn't find any mention of plants using nitrite, however. Do you know where I could find information on that? Also, while NH4+ comes directly from ammonia (NH3) reacting with water, the material I read only talked about plants taking up the ammonium ion (NH4+) and not molecular ammonia directly. So I'm wondering if at higher pH levels, when NH4+ is almost non-existent (since it's an acid), if plants will take up molecular ammonia (NH3) directly...

Thanks again for your post! It's really helped me expand my aquarium chemistry knowledge!
Regards,

Will

P.S. For me too, before anything, light and rich CO2 levels were paramount in my success of keeping a variety of plants alive. Of course after meeting that challenge, the algae showed up en masse. That's when regularly tracking nutrient levels, and tweaking conditions accordingly, came in.

[Ed13]

I didn't find any mention of plants using nitrite, however. Do you know where I could find information on that?

Sorry about that, what I wrote is misleading.

The fact that plants love Ammonia means that there is very little left for nitrosomas bacteria to convert to nitrite. What little is left is quickly converted to nitrate by the bacteria. While plants are too busy feasting on Ammonia. Once the Ammonia is in low amount the next easily available food is nitrate not nitrite that was quickly converted by nitrobacter. Since I’m not a scientist I can only assume that plants use nitrite, I only place it in that order because it follows Ammonia

BTW, I’m not the best when it comes to papers, documents, pics, etc!
What I’m good for is for observation and deductions. In other words while I’m still young my knowledge and ideas stem from the most part from experience and observation. Having and the pleasure/discomfort of working in setups and tank maintenance helps a lot! Still, I’m not really qualified to help anyone with chemistry of any kind!


P.S. For me too, before anything, light and rich CO2 levels were paramount in my success of keeping a variety of plants alive. Of course after meeting that challenge, the algae showed up en masse. That's when regularly tracking nutrient levels, and tweaking conditions accordingly, came in.
What you want is balance among the variables. Once you achieve that even running high light and a large amount of CO2, wont give you problems with algae. Unfurtunately balance is difficult to find and easily lost!:angry:

[alxjss]

I don't know if this is true or not but a guy i work with told me he added 1 cup of human urine in his tanks to help establish it. What do u think? Anybody?
eileen

[Ed13]

I don't know if this is true or not but a guy i work with told me he added 1 cup of human urine in his tanks to help establish it. What do u think? Anybody?
eileen
Yeah, I've heard it once or twice from people I've met and various times through boards! A very nasty thing to do if you ask me, and the main reason why I hated doing maitenence on peoples tanks, at least for the first time!:mad:

Not only unsanitary but, embarrasing if you are caught right in the middle of "cycling"! LOL
Could very damaging to the fish themselves (I think), remember that everything eaten and drank passes through the body including meds and toxins found in food and alcohol found in beverages. Not to mention the disrespect to the animals, they drink that water you know!!!:D

In short not really smart, and you would think humans evolve and not devolve:confused: !
Hate to say it though, it is a source of Ammonia so it may work!

Search the net for "Black soil" :p

[alxjss]

yes, thats what i thought, but he swears by it. I would do some research somehow. This guy said he did that for all his tanks and they florished. Never had a problem. He said it was his only alternative. U never know. Maybe it does work. This guy seems like he nos his stuff. If u have a small tank, give it a try and see w/that. I just might work!!!

[AmberC]

EWWW! That is disgusting! So your telling me that some people pee in the their tanks?! Gross!
Amber

[Ed13]

yes, thats what i thought, but he swears by it. I would do some research somehow. This guy said he did that for all his tanks and they florished. Never had a problem. He said it was his only alternative. U never know. Maybe it does work. This guy seems like he nos his stuff. If u have a small tank, give it a try and see w/that. I just might work!!!
It works since it is asource of Ammonia after all!
You say he knows his stuff, i say he has a long way to go! C'mon, no other alternative!? you can seed a tank with established media from other tanks, bacteria in powder, bacteria in a bottle. The he can feed the bacteria with clear ammonia, fish food, cocktail shrimp, bacon etc He is either pulling your leg, not very well informed or a cheap man!
The possibility of something going wrong at one point is so large its not worth it! Human urine its not FDA regulated :o ;) lol meaning you don't know how much ammonia you're really addding. Don't forget it has a buch of other stuff that carries out of the human body including but not limited to bacteria and other germs, meds, toxins etc. Who knows want is brewing in his tank by now! Could be a health risk for him and his family!


EWWW! That is disgusting! So your telling me that some people pee in the their tanks?! Gross!
Amber Yup, and even worst in some places, especially those growing plants in farms, at least that's what I've heard!

You know something Amber, I imagine these people urinating on their tanks rather than collecting it and "dosing"! I wonder if they are smart enough to close the blinds!:shocked: :huh: :gossip:

[Apistomaster]

I'm with you, Amber, there are too many better ways to begin "cycling" a new tank. Sanitary and other considerations aside, no aquarium is set up to become a primary sewage treatment plant.

Edit: The above aside, all aquarium filters do operate using technologies borrowed from the waste treatment industry, just scaled down and refined for our needs.