Oh crap, crap, crap ... dark and white marks

[traco]

My blue turq has been "off" for a couple of months now. I at first thought it was due to her spawning and turning dark for that. She stays by herself a lot of the time at the back of the tank. She eats okay, bloodworms she loves, pellets so so. No sign of worms or white pooh. Params are ammonia and nitrite 0, nitrate 20-30, planted tank, water changes was doing 75-80% every 4 days, have gone to 50% every 2 days. Add Prime. All other fish in the tank are fine. I am not worried about transmission of disease from my juveniles, this was going on before I got the juvies. They are in another room of the house, separate hoses, nets, wash hands, etc... Just thought I should clarify that in case that question came up.

I tried metro mixed in bloodworms and let sit. Have dosed 4 times, breakfast and dinner.

Today I saw a white patch on her top left and a couple of spots. Pics not the greatest but better than nothing.

Right side of her, just to show the darkness
http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b127/traco1/IMG_4318.jpg

Left side, you can see the mark and spots on the top near the back.
http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b127/traco1/IMG_4319.jpg

Top fin near the back, you can see the marks
http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b127/traco1/IMG_4313.jpg

Another shot
http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b127/traco1/IMG_4321.jpg

What am I dealing with here?

[pcsb23]

Hi Barb,

Not always easy, particularly as the other fish seem to be fine. First thought is some sort of parasite/protozoan. Any chance of isolating the fish?? I would be tempted to treat with something like FMG or PP, but would rpefer to do it in a qt tank, the other med here worth thinking on is a copper based one, I am always leary of recommending people to use copper. If you do decide on a copper based med get opne of the chelated ones, it is important to know your ph before using copper, high ph being safer.

[traco]

Hi Paul, I have no seeded filters for a QT tank. I have for meds Quick Cure, a bit if Formalin-3. I thought maybe something parasitic, sometimes her and the other discus do fin twitching like something is bugging them. The other fish angels, tetras, guppies all seem fine with no marks like she has. She is the only one who is off by herself and dark.

And thank you for helping diagnose.:D

[traco]

Amber brought up a question. She asked if maybe it was a scrape? The other pair had just spawned 2 days ago. The male just hates this blue turq when they are in "parent" mode. He will come flying across the tank and slamming into the turq. Fighting alot. She will sometimes stand up to him but he is so snarky with her during this time. The marks came up today. Falls in line with what has been happening in the tank the last couple of days.

Keep treating with metro (due to her being dark and hiding)?

[brewmaster15]

Hi Barb,
I don't think the metro is needed here...the dark and hiding doesn't necessarily mean a protozoan. It sounds like aggresssion from the pair.

I'd start with separating the fish...you can do it in the tank with a wire divider.

hth,
al

[Kindredspirit]

Well there ya go woman! Two dif suggestions ~ both of whom we trust 100%.....

How is he today? Personally I would try separating him with no meds initially, then see what happens...sounds like Amber cld be on to something ~

Then wait and see if you shld hit with meds ~

I hope that he will be better!:)


Marie ~ http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/11/11_2_104.gif

[AmberC]

Yes how are they today?

[traco]

It was fighting marks as today they are pretty much gone. But now the darkness and hiding? This has been going on for a couple of months so not the other pair picking on the turq. It has only been the last two spawns on the pair that the male has really been protective. The blue turq does fight back and her color does change to the normal color when she is snipping back at the pair.

[brewmaster15]

Barb,
Dominant fish can stress out weaker fish just by being around them...Intimidation by simply posturing is enough to cause weaker fish to stay out of the others way... if the feces is normal...and the eating normal...I would tend to guess the behavior is related to the other discus and aggression...Remember...you only see a fraction of what goes on with Fish interactions in the tank..

Having a pair spawning in a tank of discus is sure to stress some others out....especially if this is a smaller tank..what size tank is this?

-al

[traco]

Al, this is a 90 gallon with 4 discus in there, a pair, and a "female" pair (of which the blue turq is). The thing is, this fighting has gotten worse only the last couple of weeks. The blue turq will fight back. Once the eggs are gone, the male BD goes back to being his mild mannered self. The blue turq has been black and hiding mostly for a month/month and a half. One half of the tank is the pair's side, the other half is the "female" pair's side.

So, if it is tank mates that is causing this, do I have to remove someone?

I should hold off on any more metro treated food also?

Last night, I had one of the angels in the tank go really spastic, like when something is biting you. He tore through the water both ways making waves at the top. I don' know if this is related or not, just trying to get as much info to you as possible.

[senso]

Hi Barb

One thing you do not mention is the overall temp that you are keeping the fish at. As a first step you may want to increase the temp slowly to as much as 32.5 C. Leave it there for a week. I have found this temp change will often kill off most parasites.
Keep the Wc and other parameters as you have.
Depending on the plants you have, Crypts, Anubias and Ferns will be fine. Some stem plants may suffer.

Good luck

[traco]

Hi senso. My temp. is 84 degrees. Plants are crypts, java fern, onion plants, anubias, lotus plant.

[traco]

If this is related to fighting in the tank, I would remove the blue turq? Then I would have to remove her and her partner due to the partner would be odd man out in the tank?

If meds were needed, then by now would there be improvement?

I'm kind of at a loss on what to do. Just leave things be?

[traco]

up

[pcsb23]

Hey Barb,

This sorta presents a difficult set of choices. With only 4 discus in the tank any aggression gets too easily targeted.

Whether or not this is stress or a pathogen it would seem you have to seperate them, as in seperate tanks. Do the 2 female "pair" discus fight?? If they don't put them together in one tank and leave the other pair in the 90. If Al is right it will fix it, if not then it will be easier to treat. About the only win-win bit in this!

You may need to think about getting 2 or 3 more at some point....;)

[traco]

They will bicker with each other when spawning, sort of a get out of the way, I want to eat the eggs. But when not spawning, they get along fine.

There is a definate "your side, our side" between the four discus.

So, I pull the two of them and if she lightens up, it is stressed related, right? If she stays the same, illness? A note, when she first started going dark a month or so ago, there was one night when she was literally tipping over and black. Her partner stayed right by her and even helped her stay up. Everyone else stayed away. I just remembered this looking at the tank today.

If it was water issues, other fish in the tank would be showing some signs of not being happy also.

This is probably just as frustrating for you guys to help when you can't see in person the discus.

I do have 7 juvenile discus in another tank but they are still too small, and shouldn't be in a planted tank while growing up.

[pcsb23]

I agree about the juvvies, best left where they are for now.

Your plan sounds about right. It could be because the fish is stressed that it has succumbed and become ill. Remove the stress and the fish may well recover, if not then treatment will be needed.

[traco]

Thanks Paul.:)