Live Blackworms

[Ringo]

Is it a good idea to feed Discus live blackworms? What precautions need to be used?:confused:

Thanks

[Elite Aquaria]

I feed them every day...Never had any problems...Just make sure you have a good source...

Dan

[ShinShin]

There are plenty of problems feeding CBW's, all having to do with discus health. It's not if but when they will manifest. This has been reported on many forums and in other literature, not just discus, but Betta, Killie, Apisto, and guppy forums and literature. It has also been my experience.

Mat

[billeagan]

Is it a good idea to feed Discus live blackworms? What precautions need to be used?:confused:

Thanks

Get them from a reliable source. I did get your voice mail. I'm on a conference call I'll try and call you tomorrow on my commute home.

[ShinShin]

Unless the source CBW's are purchased are coming directly from an indoor source where the worms are being cultivated for several generations for laboratoy use, any source will present possible pathogen infestation, as well as many deadly toxins. CBW's are mud sucking creatures, ingesting every toxin it comes into contact with as well as eating every pathogenic microorganism and their eggs. While it is possible to clean a worm's intestinal tract, this does not clean the worm of the toxins that have been absorbed into it's tissue. External bacteria and protozoans may be rinsed off (may be, not all can be) the toxins remain. And, while some internal pathogens may be passed with some "clean time", how does one know if all are passed? Are intestinal pathogens just "passed" by your discus?

A supplier of CBW's who advertises on this board shows his outdoor ponds and tells us all that the Sacramento River supplies some of the rearing water. Who here would use the Sacramento River water as part of their waterchange water? If not, why not? Well, the worms are exposed to the same toxins and pathogens the discus would be if the river water was used. I also think it is a conflict of interest for several people here to answer these CBW questions as "matter of factly" safe while they are selling them to these very same people they are answering.

The evidence is all over the internet to anyone who really wants it. Just look.

Mat

[Elite Aquaria]

Mat,

I do not question your comments here. I do not sell CBW...I have not had any problems for over 1 year of feeding CBW. Maybe I am lucky.

Dan

[billeagan]

I have used CBW for 15 years with no adverse affects.

[Greg Richardson]

Here is my experience with CBW. I tried them for a week or so.
I only fed last meal of day to try to keep my fish from being spoiled going off their feed. Didn't work.

It has taken a few months now for one tank and they still aren't the vicsious eaters they once were with the other fish finally back to normal a month ago.

So for me CBW didn't work and I won't be using them again.

Going to go the red wiggler route eventually here.

So when you read they are no problem if you feed late one meal at night that may or may not be true.

It's going to depend on your fish.

Roll the dice.

[ShinShin]

I have found that those who have used CBW's over a period of time and claim no problems, are really attributing problems that they have to other factors, and not the worms, or because of professional favors by a supplier, just deny it(I am not implying the last comment to any particular person contributing to this thread at the present time, but such a thing did happen by an unnamed breeder/importer) . How is it that the overwhelming majority of top breeders in the tropical fish industry, not just discus, refuse to use CBW's because of disease problems that they had incurred while using them at some point? This is true in the killie, betta, apisto, and guppy breeding industry. Read their forums and breeder web sites. I have just spent the last two weeks reading many, many IFGA related sites and no one promotes their usage, just warnings to stay away from them. Can so many people be wrong? Was it just a coinsidence that all these people just happened to have these disease problems while feeding CBW's, that the disease would have appeared if they were feeding BH, flake and/or pellets? I don't think so.

Mat

[Elite Aquaria]

Mat,

I was the Vice President of the IFGA from 2001 - 2002. You are correct that most guppy breeders do not use CBW. In fact back then I did not even know what they were. The only person who used them was Jim Alderson. Guppies do just fine with Baby brine, Micro Worms and flake. However, Jim always had the larger fish on the bench...At the time I did not know he was feeding them CBW...only after I visited his house did I learn of his famous growth secret...:D :D :D

I personally over the past 8 - 12 months have only had 10 discus that I got from Wattley's and I have been feeding them the CBW and I have not had any illness what so ever. Like I said maybe I am lucky or playing with fire.

Dan

[Tropical Haven]

Just my way of thinking is if there is a chance of something harming my Discus, then I will not give it to them. Just my personal feeling.

[brewmaster15]

Mat,
I Often wonder about the accuracy of whats said with regards the actual usage of CBW... and tubifex for that matter..... I got a feeling they are used far more than admitted publically... call it a hunch...undocumented.

I'm not denying all those professional breeders that may be preaching it or have preached not using it... I'm just wondering how many years they used it to come up with conclusions that its not something to use...or were they born with that innate knowledge.?:) I guess I am also wondering how many preach it but still use it or would if they were still involved..;)

I have seen many slip up and every once in a while you see what sure looks likes CBW or tubifex in photo of their ...call me skeptical...but theres an aweful lot of tubifex commercially raised, freeze dried and sold...and always has been.

Just for arguments sake..Lets call it fish business 101... if the worm helps you grow fish fast and stimulates breeding ( most feel live foods do this, not saying its specific to CBW)... then if you are selling fry...its makes great sense if the benefits outweigh the risks for the breeders.... remember these breeders are not looking to get years out of their fish. I am aiming this to breeders globally.

SO...Not saying you are wrong here in your belief that CBW are a risk.... and not saying you are right... I'm still waiting on the proof that goes by what so and so attributed to CBW... we've been there before..its a circular argument at best. I will say...I used to use them and if not for the cost and difficulty I have had getting them here healthy...I'd probably still feed them at least to breeders....I honestly have not found a food better at conditioning a pair.


I'd like to see a comparison done someday showing the actual % risk compared to all other foods fed...but we all know thats not coming in a while....


so my point here is... I have found breeders to be extremely tight lipped about what they really do as well as what they really feed.... I tend to think that we know far less than what we are told ... makes sense....sure don't see coca cola giving out that secret recipe to success.... thats just my POV.

-al

[billeagan]

A lot people that first come to me say they would like some live "blood worms" and I have to educate them on the difference and that they should only use frozen trusted sources of blood worm and not the live stuff...

I would GUESS that people who had problems were not using true CBW and if they were using true CBW either received them from a source that did not take care of them or the user did not take care of them properly them selves and introduced the bacteria directly.

In the end, I do my best to go over the pro's and con's for using beef heart/CBW/frozen foods, etc. with my customers and do my best to differentiate those from my own personal feelings.

Food tends to be a very personal choice that everyone has to make for themselves.

[FishLover888]

In theroy, live food and frozen food carry the same risk in terms of pathogenic microorganism. Frozen will not kill these buggers.

The only difference is when big comercial shops do the frozen, they use UV (gama?) to treat the frozen food, just like they treat our meat food. That will kill all pathogenic microorganism.

Also in theory, frozen food holds almost the same value as live food. They may not taste as good as the live food to the discus but they hold the same nutrition value. I would go for a frozen food source who treats the food before frozen them. Why take the risk?

BTW, thanks for the frozen BW Bill. My discus like them and so are my darf puffers. It's funny to see a small puffer trying to eat a worm too big for him/her. (no, they are not in the same tank with my discus)

[Squiggy]

Hmmm....wonder why nobody offers frozen CBW.....:confused:

[brewmaster15]

Joe,
they mush and disintegrate when frozen and thawed.

but I noticed that Hikari offers tubifex as a pathogen free freeze dried food..... must use that triple sterilization on it to make them safe.:):):):):) of course the heavy metals may be an issue still


-al

[Squiggy]

Al...I've always thought of heavy metals as the main issue. The other stuff can be treated....

Good point about the cryo-degeneration...

Joe

[roclement]

OK...I have and still use CBW for the last 6 years, some comercial breeders and wholesalers I know do not recomend CBW to clients for 2 reasons, one they do not sell it, so they recomend foods that they do sell and make a profit on, two, CBW require care that most people are unwilling or uncapable of providing, therefore resulting in die-offs that make you loose your source of food, or in people feeding foul, dying worms to their fish that will indeed cause a problem.

A lot of people here know I support the use of CBW, it was even infered that I take a kick back from a source...just like there are haters, there are lovers! I use CBW in both discus and stingrays...hell if my cockatoo liked it I would feed it to him too!

JMO

Rod

[poconogal]

Here's a link to an article on blackworms that I found very interesting and informative.

http://www.skepticalaquarist.com/docs/feeding/blackworms.shtml

[Kindredspirit]

Great link Connie! Read it all:) Frank once told me that cbw never die in your tank ...just float to the bottom and wait to be eaten by some bottom dweller....and that is was is stated in this article ~

Good Info!

[Dave LaVigne]

Great link Connie.

I learned my lesson not rinsing them daily.

I've heard in Whattley discus food NO worms are used in making, I know CBW cannot be frozen then thawed, but bloodworms can. If they are good then why wouldnt Wattley use them in this product? Just currious if anyone has thought along the same lines?

[Elite Aquaria]

Not sure why they do not use them in their frozen food...But Gabe does feed his fish with CBW...

Dan

[brewmaster15]

Dan,

For what its worth
there was a thread awhile back where a forum member mentioned "buying " CBW from Gabe....when questioned on that he explained after talking further with Gabe..That Gabe does not use them.....just sells them to his customers.

http://www.forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?t=54126

-al

[Elite Aquaria]

Dan,

For what its worth
there was a thread awhile back where a forum member mentioned "buying " CBW from Gabe....when questioned on that he explained after talking further with Gabe..That Gabe does not use them.....just sells them to his customers.

http://www.forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?t=54126

-al

Not true...like you posted above wondering who does and who does not tell the truth. Gabe does not feed the CBW to his fish he is selling but he does to his personal fish at home. ;) ;)

Dan

[brewmaster15]

:Dno comment:)

[Kenny's Discus]

:Dno comment:)

:D :D :p :p

[yogi]

Gabe does feed his discus at home cbw's. Also arguing with Mat with one T about blackworms is a waste of time. Remember when Dave Webber and Cary Strong had all those worms tested at a University and they all came up clean. It's very important to clean and rinse your worms every day. There are a lot of people with discus, guppies and bettas who have fed there fish cbw's for years without any problems. Also remember when that University in the Pacific North West was doing that study and said they were dirty. It ended up turning out they were tubifex worms and not cbw's they were testing. I also would never subject my fish to Wattley's frozen food sold by Ocean Nutrition.

[CARY_GLdiscus]

I used them for 16 years!

Discus,Guppies, Plecos, Swords, Rams, angelfish ,mollies, catfish, ETC...

My only problems were internal bacteria infections from not washing them like I should of BUT theses problems were only seen in my discus all other fish did not respond to dirty CBW.

hth
cary Gld!

[alpine]

Could I ask you experts about a culture I have going , not of CBW but of Grindal white worms . I bought the culture three weeks ago and have been feeding them real good stuff and I would like to start feeding the babies but with all the topics related to live worms I am still nervous about it .
I apologize for entering this question on the CBW thead.
Any replies will be appreciated ,
roberto.