IT ALWAYS HAPPENS WHEN YOU GET NEW FISH!!

[Elaine_Bryant]

Hi everyone, all my discus were doing fine, ( a tank of adults and 9 juvies), I bought 11 new babies and put them in quarantine tank. The new ones look like they've shed their skin in spots, hanging at the top and huddled together, I treated them with an API product called general cure. They seem to be getting better and I realize it will take a few days before I can actually see if their skin is regrowing BUT.......now my juvies are acting the same way and I noticed some with the same patchy looking skin, my adults look fine but are hanging in one corner and one was even laying on his side!!!! Discus are supposed to be relaxing......AAARG. I have 2 community tanks and have separate pythons that I change water with but must have cross contaminated my discus tanks with the one I use just for the discus, thats the only thing I can figure out. help. thank.......Elaine

[Graham]

Sounds like you have a case of oodinium or costia...the patches are mucus being shed. The GC is Metro, Prazi and something else ??........... you may not find it strong enough overall

G

[Polar_Bear]

Graham may be correct, but it could also be a bacterial infection (I would actually be a little more inclined towards this due to the cross contanination which is more likely with a bacteria) in that case Furan 2 or Marycin 1 + 2 may be a better solution.

[brewmaster15]

Hi Elaine,
When you set up the Qt tank for the new fish...where did you get the biofilter from?

-al

[Moon]

Good point Al. I always use a sponge filter from an established tank when I set up a Qt tank. Not good practice but been lucky so far.
Joe

[Elaine_Bryant]

Hi Brew, thats something I didn't think of, I used the bio from the juvie tank, but all of them were doing fine. I have a 75gal. bowfront, a 56 gal and a 30 gal. I'm trying to decide the cheapest way to treat them, ( and advice on what to treat them with) I've started using formalin 4.26%, zincfree chloride salt of malacite green. Its rid ick+. Do you think that would do it? The juvie tank seem to be alittle better but the others are still hanging in one corner. thanks everyone........Elaine

[Greg Richardson]

You can always lower your water level in half on the big tanks to use less meds.

[Elaine_Bryant]

thats a good idea. I wonder if the rid ick+ would be enough to treat them with? It breaks my heart to see my big adults hanging in a corner in a group like that, I've looked them over and I can't see anything wrong with their fins, skin etc. They're just hanging there in that one corner. Elaine

[brewmaster15]

Hi Elaine,
How long has the "established Juvies and Adult tank" been running without additions or problems?

How long was it since you bought the newest fish and how long did it take for problems to start? How long after the new fish did the older fish show symptoms?


Given separate hoses and good QT procedures...it sure sounds like the problem may have originated in the older tank....The new fish ,being new and stressed , may have just broken down first.

How did you make out with that last illness?


-al

[Elaine_Bryant]

The last illness was in the juvie tank I took the cycled sponge from, but they've been growing and eating like pigs. I think what the new ones have is the same thing I had before but can't figure out how it could still be active when none of the fish were showing signs of any illness at all after being treated. The good news is everyone seems to be on the mend, the new ones are starting to eat and the one that was absolutely black is eating, I thought I would lose him for sure. thanks for caring..........Elaine

[Airex]

This is caused by initial stage of slime that goes untreated. Usually in asia, we use potassium permeganate

[pinkertd]

Hi Elaine,
I just went through this myself. First time I brought "outsiders" into the house. IMO, it's bacterial for sure. What's a normal bacteria for fish from one place is a "strange" bacteria for fish from another place. Kinda like a flu bug that they were never exposed to before. I cross-contaminated my 72 gallon display tank by using the python in both the quarantine tank and the 72. Only the discus got sick, slime patches, shedding slime, clamped fins, huddling in the corner, very very dark. And the reason I say bacteria is that while the discus looked as if they would die, my rams were untouched and continued to spawn, two barely 1/4-inch baby mollies were untouched, my clown loach and gold nugget pleco and 2 corys were also totally unaffected. For a while I treated the 72 gallon tank but it takes too much medication, it's pretty heavily planted, and changing out 80% of the water every night was killing me! I eventually took just the discus out and continued to treat them in a 20 gallon med tank. It took almost a month for everyone to look 100% perfect again. Didn't loose any. Couldn't believe how black a discus could get! What worked best for me was lots of salt, I had some of the older version of maracide concentrate, maracyn and then maracyn 2 if warranted.

[Graham]

''.........Only the discus got sick, slime patches, shedding slime, clamped fins, huddling in the corner, very very dark....''

''........The new ones look like they've shed their skin in spots,....''

''......... same patchy looking skin, ...........''

Everyone keeps mentioning bacteria but any bacterial infections that I've ever seen have red inflamed areas, flesh being eaten away, fins rotting and inflamed, areas of fuzzy whitish/gray growths or tuffs. Bacterial infections also don't usually show up on their own, but are invader of wounds or or areas where the cuticle has been damaged. For bacteria to just attack a healthy fish the water would have to be total crap.....unlikely in a discus tank


What the 3 sentences above describe are parasitic infections that can occur in patches and on stressed new fish. Healthy fish in an established tank are quite capable of fending off parasites.

Anyway I'll stick to my original assement...this is a parasite problem:)

[brewmaster15]

Graham,

I dont know if this parasite or bacterial... but just FYI...

Everyone keeps mentioning bacteria but any bacterial infections that I've ever seen have red inflamed areas, flesh being eaten away, fins rotting and inflamed, areas of fuzzy whitish/gray growths or tuffs. Bacterial infections also don't usually show up on their own, but are invader of wounds or or areas where the cuticle has been damaged. With most fish I would agree with you ..With Discus , They react with slime coat buildups and sloughing to both bacterias and parasites...and thats what makes them so difficult to deal with when that symptom is present.

Much of it has to do with their biology...it doesn't take much to trigger the slime coat reaction... thats been my experience for years now, and that of many many others..

Ironically, discus seem to rarely get ulcers as some fish like Koi seem prone.

hth,
al

[Graham]

Al could this be a chicken and the egg scenario........Bacteria need something to attack/invade, a wound or scrape or something like that. Discus or any fish for that matter live in an environment that is full of bacteria, both good and bad and cope with it. It's only when something breaks through the cuticle or the epidermis that they get a chance to invade.

All fish excrete additional mucus/cutcile when they are being irritated...discus are really good at it. The cutcile contains proteins, antibodies and ''other things'' that protect the fish. I'd suggest that if there was additional bacteria present in those thicker cuticle/slime areas that they came after the fact....the bacteria are living off the mucus

[brewmaster15]

Its Possible Graham, theres alot we don't know about Fish immune systems and discus in particular.I'm looking forward to sharing notes with you down the road as you get bit more and more by the discus bug....:)


Discus or any fish for that matter live in an environment that is full of bacteria, both good and bad and cope with it. It's only when something breaks through the cuticle or the epidermis that they get a chance to invade. This may actually be very important... Discus not only are engineered to make copious amounts of slime for feeding their fry but they also evolved in water that is very low in bacterial load due to pH and acidity...They may have less a tolerance for bacteria load in tanks and respond with slime ...who knows?

hth,
al

[pcsb23]

When I am dealing with a problem as Elaine has here, if I'm not sure whether its bacterial or parasite I normally go with FMG first up, its isn't a magic bullet, but if its a parasite it will be dealt with, if its a mild bacterial infection it will also be dealt with. Personally its why I prefer FMG to PP for parasites. FMG and a good water management schedule may be all that's needed. If the problem persists then I would go to anti biotics furan2 or maracyn 1&2 are good options.

hth

[Graham]

Its Possible Graham, theres alot we don't know about Fish immune systems and discus in particular.I'm looking forward to sharing notes with you down the road as you get bit more and more by the discus bug....:)

This may actually be very important... Discus not only are engineered to make copious amounts of slime for feeding their fry but they also evolved in water that is very low in bacterial load due to pH and acidity...They may have less a tolerance for bacteria load in tanks and respond with slime ...who knows?

hth,
al

The bug has shown up quicker than you think.........I haven't been able to locate any wilds so I just picked up 5, supposedly Red Turqs, about 3''> 3.5'' that LFS brought in a week ago, acclimatizing as I type....something to play with till some wild ones show up:)

When you look at the typical discus tank and it's husbandry, the bacteria CFU's would probably be so low that they wouldn't factor in at all. Has anyone ever had a study done on typical bacterial levels?

I feel for these little guys because before they go into the tank a couple of them are going to get a scrape done:)

[Elaine_Bryant]

If this helps........I noticed alot more slime on the glass, and I think maybe I was focusing more on the water changes with the new discus and slacked up on my regular mantaniance of the other tanks which may have stressed my older discus enough that they were more vulnerable to whatever this is, bacterial or fungal. The new babies came from malaysia. I felt better after reading the post about it taking a month to get them cleared up and you didn't lose any. Its going to take awhile for them to get well but I can see each day they are getting better altho still dark. I'll keep everyone posted. Elaine

[brewmaster15]

The bug has shown up quicker than you think.........I haven't been able to locate any wilds so I just picked up 5, supposedly Red Turqs, about 3''> 3.5'' that LFS brought in a week ago, acclimatizing as I type....something to play with till some wild ones show up:) Congrats Graham... You've officially joined the nut-case club:):):)!!!I knew it wouldnt be long:) Good luck...I'm sure you'll do fine with them... post some pics when they settle in.:):)

-al

[Graham]

Oh good now I'm a Discus nut and Koi Kichi...the little mutts 10 minutes after they went in the tank. A scrape/scope of two of them showed a couple of gill flukes....

http://www.fototime.com/E992088683DF8EC/standard.jpg

[brewmaster15]

Elaine,
Sorry for the Hijack... can't help it when I hear someone new enters the fold:)

Graham, they look pretty good.... be neat if you put a thread up in the new section we openned (breeders section) and then we could follow their develop ...Not often when we see a group of Juvies from a LFS that can be followed in their growth.:):)


again, Good luck.

-al

[pinkertd]

Isn't a bacteria a germ? Germs can cause colds and flus and viruses and they also cause infections on open wounds. So when I say bacteria.....I'm talking "germ". It just doesn't make sense that a parasite would only infect the discus in the tank and leave fish like baby mollies, rams and the clown loach untouched. How would a parasite know a discus from a ram? It's not the water, parameters were perfect. My discus had never even had a gill fluke. Just like our human skin is covered in every day bacteria that's all our very own, fish also have theirs. Whats normal for a fish in your tanks in your homes probably isn't exactly the same germs as say a discus from Germany or Malayasia or Hong Kong. If it was viral, again, why would the virus only select the healthy discus? Why not a healthy ram or a healthy clown loach.....they are sensitive fish as well. I liken it to a human flu germ. If you've been previously exposed to strep germs or a particular flu bug (which isn't a parasite) or the wonderful what I call the "head and tail" bug (which also isn't a parasite either but sure feels like one's trying to get out of your body any way it can :D ) you've developed some immunity to that bacteria or germ. But if you've never been exposed, doesn't matter if you're the perfect picture of fitness and health......if you encounter it.....you're gonna get sick! Hey, I've listened to doctors tell me pneumonia isn't contagious while I watched the "viral" pneumonia take out my toddler triplets....one...by one....by one. I caught a rare airborne pneumonia myself about 5 years ago. All the doctors had to take a look at it under the microscope cause they'd all heard about it and no one of them had ever seen a case of it. So if healthy people can be infected by a new bacteria or germ they come into contact with, it seems a fish could too. Doesn't mean the person or fish carrying it is sick, sometimes it's a part of their normal particular physical make up. What's normal for one, isn't necessarily normal for someone (or fish) else?

[Graham]

debbi I'm going to be a little picky here.

''Germs"" is a pretty generic term...........Viruses and bacteria are two completely different things. Bacteria are a living thing...they reproduce all on their own, some are pathogenic some are not...we rely on a lot of different kinds of bacteria to make our aquariums function, without them we wouldn't have fish...

Virus like cold or flu virus's are not living per say, They need to invade a cell and utilize it's ''organs'' to live. A virus can invade a healthy animal, where as most bacteria need a opening into the fish or a fish that is very stressed, so it's immune system is down, to be able to attack it. There are very few viruses in the hobby but the ones that are there are extremely deadly...KHV in Koi is a prefect example. The Herpes one of Angelfish a few years ago.

Bacteria and virus's within the hobby are pretty world wide and show up all own their own...a Good example is the Koi Herpes Virus...started in Britain, went to Israel and wiped them out then to the States and now it's in Japan...the Japanese don't import koi....but it is there. So what German, American, Oriental discus have is all the same thing.

You can't compare humans and fish, we live in completely different environments and have developed immune systems for those environments. We could never with stand the bacteria levels of a water environment.

It is very possible for parasites to be selective and isolated to particular fish...just because they are there doesn't mean that they have to infect every fish in the tank.

How do you know that your fish have never had flukes...have you done a scrape and scope on them...flukes on fish is kind of like fleas on a dog...they all have them..............I lightly scraped 2 fish and came up with a fluke off of each

There is a lot of guessing in the fish keeping hobby...most of it based on absolutely nothing ..................


G

[pinkertd]

You're not getting picky Graham, just keeping my brain going trying to understand what this "flu like" thing is that hits people's discus from time-to-time when new discus are introduced into the house. I've spent days on end searching the internet trying to understand it so I could make my fish better because they really looked like death for a while, and I've had tropical fish for many, many years, but this was the closest I ever got to entertaining the idea of sledge hammering thru the glass and making plans on sipping pina coladas by the pool with all the spare time I was gonna have not ever having to do any more water changes! I've had discus now for just about a year and a half, and my discus were healthy and the new ones were healthy....and seemingly overnight all the work you've done to get those beautiful fish to healthy adulthood looks like its going down the toilet reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeaaalll fast.
I can't help but think it has to be a "germ" (and I'm using that loosely but using it because I'm just not convinced it's a parasite of any kind) that my fish had never been exposed to before. It was quick to start and spread. So is it viral? But then it's only viral to my existing discus stock, the new ones never so much as batted an eye and now they are all together as if it never happened. Do fish take viruses in thru their gills? The only thing that really kept me sane through the ordeal was knowing that other people pulled their fish thru this kind of thing, my fish were robust prior to being hit with this and although they looked like black death, they came out and ate everyday for me even though they quickly scurried back into the corners to huddle when they were finished. I just kept looking at them thinking.....that's how i feel and look when i have the flu (except i don't have the excess slime coat :D ).
And you are right, most fish do have a fluke or two or three so mine probably do as well, but they are happy flukes and my fish don't flash or scrape or seem to be bothered in any way by any fluky hitchhikers.

[Polar_Bear]

Al could this be a chicken and the egg scenario........Bacteria need something to attack/invade, a wound or scrape or something like that. Discus or any fish for that matter live in an environment that is full of bacteria, both good and bad and cope with it. It's only when something breaks through the cuticle or the epidermis that they get a chance to invade.

This is not correct. Bacteria need nothing more than a host to invade, they don't need the fish to be stressed or wounded. I believe you have bacteria and fungi confused with one another Graham. While bacteria are omnipresent, saying pathogenic bacteria are always present is also incorrect. The truth be told there is simply no way to know what the causal agent is without a scrape, which is something you know well and quite correctly advocate Graham.

Were it me, and without taking a scrape my first course of action would be to follow Paul's advice and treat with Formalin/Malachite Green. Do NOT raise the temperature of the tank and keep it as clean as humanly possible.

[brewmaster15]

Graham,


You can't compare humans and fish, we live in completely different environments and have developed immune systems for those environments. We could never with stand the bacteria levels of a water environment.


I have to disagree there..:) Though their immune systems are of course specific for their environments as all animals are... The immune systems of all vertebrates are far more similar than different. They all work on the same principles.:)

just me being picky:D

-al

[Graham]

Not confusing anything Larry...as a general statement ...Pathogenic bacteria are always present, most are opportunistic. Most never bother a fish till it becomes stressed, or damaged. then they have an opportunity to invade.

The cuticle of a fish is it's 1st line of defense, it contains antibodies, Lysozymes and substances called C-Reactive proteins ( Koi Health/Dr Johnson), as long as it stays intact ............ Bacteria need a way into the fish, without it they can't invade........Healthy, non-stressed fish don't get sick. If the bacteria CFU's are high enough to overwhelm a fish's natural defenses, then they are in crap water. A number of the higher end koi hobbyist have had lab studies done on bacteria levels in their ponds....all the common pathogenic ones are present.

Viruses are a little different, there are no cures and while some are nothing more than a pita like Lymphocycstis or carp Pox........ Other like SVC, or KHV are deadly to almost all fish present.


Not really different for parasites...most are always present at low non infectious levels....how many times have you heard about someone dropping the temp too fast in a tank and everyone shows up with ich, when nothing new has been added to the tank in years...because it has always been there at low ambient levels........Flukes are kind of like fleas on a dog, you'll be hard pressed to ever wipe them out 100%.

[Moon]

Graham
Can you please explain the scrape procedure for checking for flukes? I have a microscope and would like to try this procedure.
Joe

[Graham]

Hi Joe these guys are pretty small so I just held them in my hand, larger fish could be held down on a wet towel...using a cover slip at about a 30* angle and starting at the edge of the operculum, lightly drag it back along the body for about a 1/2'', around the lateral line. You want just enough pressure to remove some of the mucus but not too much so that the fish is marked.

The other spot is below and between the gills, dragging back to the ventral fins and around the vent...critters love to hide in their butts. On larger fish a scrape can be done in the joint of the pec.

If you take a scale or tow it's not a big problem. Discus scales are clear and have nice rings like a tree with a cluster of spikes at one edge

I usually use a couple of cover slips on each fish. Then put a drop of water on the slide and drop the mucus edge of the cover slip down onto it. I usually put a bit of pressure using a pair of scissors on the cover slip to flatten it out.

Then start looking, flukes are easy to see at 40x and most other things at 100x. Costia can be hard to see even at 400x

Buy a couple of feeder goldfish and practise...they usually have a wdie assortment of bugs

G

[Darren's Discus]

Elaine,
how are they today ? when this problem occurs.i have good results with a drug called linco spectin pig farmers use it you should be able to get it through a local vet and use at 2grams per hundred litres continue for 48 hours doing 50 % water changes daily at the end of the 48 hour period if they are recovering use 2 ml per 100 litres of benadine (cheaper alternative from the vet is vetadine) to help them get over the infection !


cheers

[Elaine_Bryant]

Hi, everyone seems to be better in the baby tanks (a 30 and 56 barebottom) The adults appear better but are still hovering in a corner. At first I couldn't see anything on the adults skin but I can now, its like a whiteish film in places. I've been useing the formulin and it seems to be working, (and doing 90% water changes on everyone.) Also their still eating so thats a plus. Like I said before the one baby that was black is getting his color back and eating so maybe I'll be lucky this time and not lose any. (I hopeIhope) Elaine

[Greg Richardson]

Are you using stored water when you do 90% wc's?

[Darren's Discus]

Like Greg said,is your water aged ? as chlorine in high levels will cause extra slime secretions and burn them ! glad to hear there doing better useally if your going to lose them you will in the first 48 hours so hopefully they will pull through !


cheers

[Moon]

Hi Joe these guys are pretty small so I just held them in my hand, larger fish could be held down on a wet towel...using a cover slip at about a 30* angle and starting at the edge of the operculum, lightly drag it back along the body for about a 1/2'', around the lateral line. You want just enough pressure to remove some of the mucus but not too much so that the fish is marked.

The other spot is below and between the gills, dragging back to the ventral fins and around the vent...critters love to hide in their butts. On larger fish a scrape can be done in the joint of the pec.

If you take a scale or tow it's not a big problem. Discus scales are clear and have nice rings like a tree with a cluster of spikes at one edge

I usually use a couple of cover slips on each fish. Then put a drop of water on the slide and drop the mucus edge of the cover slip down onto it. I usually put a bit of pressure using a pair of scissors on the cover slip to flatten it out.

Then start looking, flukes are easy to see at 40x and most other things at 100x. Costia can be hard to see even at 400x

Buy a couple of feeder goldfish and practise...they usually have a wdie assortment of bugs

G

Thanks Graham
I think some feeder goldfish might be a good idea to practice before the discus.
Joe

[Graham]

once you do it the 1st time it'll amaze you how easy it really is....injecting antibiotics is the next step:) it's easy too