Bare Bottom Tank Question

[kmuda]

First off, let me apologize for asking a question that has probably been asked a thousand times. My question is to do with BB tanks, but first, a little background.

While I just joined SimplyDiscus (great site btw), I am an experianced fish keeper and kept Discus many moons ago (more like decades), but have just recently got back into Discus (sold existing fish out of one of my 55's to make room). I currently have several tanks housing Oscars, Convicts, Angel Fish, and assorted community fish.

The discus are Cobalt Blues from Discus Madness. I have four juvies, each about 3". All are healthy, in wonderful shape, and eating FBW, Emerald Entry, BH, Boyd's VitaDiet, and Ocean Nutrition Cichlid Community flakes. No other fish are in the 55-gallon tank, just the four discus. I had no acclimation issues.

The temp is at 86, pH 6.8, ammonia 0, nitrate 0, and nitrates are still registering 0. I am currently performing 25% to 50% water changes daily, with every square inch of gravel deep vaccuumed during each water change (there's that evil gravel). The amount of water changed depends upon what I am pulling from the gravel. I gravel vac until I am getting nothing from it.

My question:

I have read enough on this site to know that BB tanks are preferred, and I fully understand the necessity of them in a breeder tank, but am a little confused on the almost religious preference for them in raising juvies. Is the reason for the BB tank for water quality.... reduced nitrate and dissolved organics. Or are there other health concerns?

In my tank I feed the FBW from a worm cone and I have a flat ornament in the tank (6" x 6" with side walls) that is the feeding station for the Emerald Entry, Vita Diet "crumbles", and beefheart. This ornament is located underneath the worm cone so that worms that may fall out of the cone land on the flat surface of the ornament, not on the gravel. However, even with this effort, some food does wind up in the gravel, as does the fishes poo. On occasion I have pulled out a "moldy" piece of food during the gravel vacs.

Are my efforts sufficient, as long as I keep nitrates below 5ppm, or are there other health concerns?

[Airex]

Gravel can act as the perfect place for cultivation of harmful bacteria

[kmuda]

Please clarify.

What "harmful bacterial" would be in the gravel that would harm the juvies? Will it not be be the same bacteria that is developing in sponge filters? Primarily autotrophic nitrifying bacteria and heterotrophic bacteria breaking down waste.

Are tank raised discus really that much more susceptible to bacterial related illnesses?

With eggs and fry, I understand the hazards. I don't understand them with Juvies. Having raised both Angels and convicts, from eggs to adults, in tanks with gravel, I am questioning how serious this risk is.

If need be, I will pull the fish from the tank and place them elsewhere long enough to empty the tank of gravel. However, I see that as potentially being more harmful to the fish than leaving things as they are. Which is the purpose of my post. Am I "fooling" myself? If so, at what age/size would it be considered safe to house Discus with gravel?

[FishLover888]

I had mine in gravel tank since I bought them (2.5"). I guess BB is much easier to clean, so your water is going to be in better condition, (less nitrates and other pulletons).

Mind you, I'm no expert and my discus did not grow fast as they should have. I think the less feeding (due to gravel) and less frequent WCs were the factors to blame. I used to do once a week WC so I could not feed them that much each day. I'm now doing 2x 50% WCs each week and they are starting to grow faster. I have 2 of them about 5.5" and the rest are about 4"+. I don't think they will grow much bigger than 5", which are OK with me.

If I were to start over, I would go BB for the first few months just because of the feeding and cleaning issues. I may put the UGF in without the gravel so the food and fish poop can sink into it. I can vac it out when doing WCs. I just don't like to see fish food and poop all over the tank. Not sure if this will work or not.

[PDX-PLT]

I think the issue is ease of cleaning. No gravel, no need to religiously clean every square inch of it. Given the fish room full of tanks many here seem to have, for many that type of cleaning would not be practical. And I guess being large fish, fast growing fish that eat alot while juvies, it is difficult to keep that gravel clean.

"harmful bacteria" would be anaerobic colonies living in stagnent pockets in deep gravel, I guess.

[Ardan]

I like to wipe down the sides of the tank a few times a wk to remove any slime to keep bad bacteria from having a place to grow.

Gravel is also a good place for parasites or parasite eggs to hatch. Many discus harbor flukes and do just fine if the fluke population is kept low and the discus are kept in good health and the water quality is at a very low bioload.
It is easier to maintain and control things without gravel. It is also easier to see how much food is uneaten.
Also easier to monitor the feces for any abnormal coloration or formation. (white, yellow, clear, long.....)

I have grown my biggest discus in barebottom. I use to use gravel all the time.
Now, I go bb.

hth
Ardan

[Cosmo]

What Ardan said :)

I used to use gravel, and found that regardless of how much I vacuumed it I could never get all the detritus, and I believe I have the "worlds most powerful syphon" (about 7 gals per minute :p ) on the upstairs tank :D

I now have all my tanks as BB and would never go back - even my adults are in BB tanks decorated with driftwood.

Now, all the detritus is gathered in one or two nice little piles on the bottom of the tank ready to be syphoned out :) I scrape down the sides and the bottom regularly so slime buildup doesn't trap little pieces of "whatever"

Jim

[kmuda]

I've had these Discus for about 2 weeks. Thus far they are doing great.... eating and growing. All appear healthy. Water quality is being kept in check (and will be, regardless of how much effort is required).

So the question is, what I am doing now appears to be working. Do I potentially disrupt everything to temporarily remove the fish from the tank and remove all of the gravel?

If the fish benefit, I’ll do it. If I am the primary beneficiary (from less effort) then I would not.

I guess the better question would be, if you were in my shoes would you remove the fish, after only two weeks, to remove the gravel?

[Ardan]

Hi,
Another and better Imo way to remove gravel is to siphon out some of the gravel with each water change.

Its up to you what you choose.:)
Ardan

[kmuda]

Now that you mention it, I was thinking the same thing this morning while sitting in front of the tank but I don't get enough force in my siphon to pull the gravel out. I'll try and pull the wide end off of my siphon tube in the morning and see how it does.

Otherwise I can remove a cupful or two at a time, over a period of time, and get it removed without a tremendous mess and without overly stressing the fish.

Thanks very much for the input.

[Howie_W]

Hi kmuda,

I'll add my two cents worth.

Your original question is a good one, as it is often asked by new Discus owners. As with all things, there is always a learning curve. You can either keep your set-up as is, and see how things go, and consider slowly converting to a bare bottom set-up. If you are going to change over your current tank to a bare bottom, make sure you do so in a way that will cause the least amount of stress on your fish.

My ultimate suggestion would be to set-up a new tank, and also think about getting more fish, as 4 is pretty small number for Discus.


Howie

[kmuda]

I like the ideal of a new tank, but I would have to throw one of the kids out of the house to fit anymore. :D

Come to think of it, they are both 18, time for them to go anyway. :whip: I have been wanting to convert their living area into my fish room. Right now I have tanks in both living rooms and both dining areas.

I'm going to slowly remove the gravel, over the next week or so. What I have going now (with the feeding station) is minimizing the issue, but feeding would be easier on the fish if there was no gravel. The largest of the four tends to claim the feeding station as his territory.

I went with four because I only have a 55-gallon (right now) for the Discus and I wanted minimal bioload to ensure I could maintain the water quality. Eventually I'll be moving an Oscar, Convicts, and Silver Dollars from a 120 to a 200+ and I'll turn the 120 into a Discus tank, expanding the population.

[Camden]

I went with four because I only have a 55-gallon (right now) for the Discus and I wanted minimal bioload to ensure I could maintain the water quality. Eventually I'll be moving an Oscar, Convicts, and Silver Dollars from a 120 to a 200+ and I'll turn the 120 into a Discus tank, expanding the population.


You can keep up to 6 in a 55 and they will still grow out nicely. Plus thats the best number for discus to reduce aggression and picking on each other. Try and get two more around the same size if not just a bit bigger.

[johnm]

kmuda, I have had my 4 discus in a 35 with about an inch of gravel and driftwood and they are growing out fine. I siphon out about 70% every 3-4 days and vacuum gravel every time. So far so good.

[White Worm]

kmuda, I have had my 4 discus in a 35 with about an inch of gravel and driftwood and they are growing out fine. I siphon out about 70% every 3-4 days and vacuum gravel every time. So far so good.

How old are they and how large are they? No one said you couldnt do it. It is just not the best practice with young discus if you are feeding like you should for best growth and highest potential. Even though you change your water, try stirring up your gravel and see what you are missing. Unfortunately, "so far" is what we hear alot until something goes wrong.

Best bet is BB with little ones because they need many feedings per day which will turn your gravel into a mess. If you like substrate, think along the lines of sand so that food and crap stay on the surface.

[johnm]

i've had them for 6months and they are about 4 inches now. They were 2-3 inches when i got them

[kmuda]

I pulled the gravel from my tank today. I started by siphoning the gravel out with a cut up section of water hose. After I siphoned out a small round section down to the glass and set back to observe, the Discus all went to that section of bare glass and started looking for food. I thought, cool, lets get some more out.

I drained half the water, took a cup, planning to only lift some of the gravel out, but when I pulled the first few cups of it out and it made no mess I figured what the heck, let's get some more. I got a small plastic dustpan out (cleaned it well of course) and went to town. What I did not get with the dustpan I got with the water hose siphon. Before I knew it, all of the gravel had been removed.

Those daily gravel vacs for the last 16 days had really done the job. I did not have a mess on my hands as the gravel was really clean. The water did not cloud up and almost no floaties.

Regardless, the fish seem to prefer the barebottom, which would make sense because that is they way the breeder raised them.

I've added a bags of established BioMax to each of the HOB filters to compensate for the lost beneficial bacteria. My primary concern is starting a mini-cycle, but with two Penguin 170s (using third party clamshells with sponges and blue bonded padding), a Magnum 350 (with Penguin Pro 60 Biowheels, the media chamber filled with Eheim Ehfisubstrat, and a sponge prefilter on the intake) and an Azoo Oxygen Plus 4 Sponge filter, there should be plenty of biofiltration remaining. Any mini-cycle would be very short lived.

The fish appear more active now than before. As I said, it appears they prefer the bare bottom tank.

[FishLover888]

Make sure they can not see through the bottom or they get confused.

[Deepak]

i've had them for 6months and they are about 4 inches now. They were 2-3 inches when i got them

Very slow growth rate I'd say :(


I pulled the gravel from my tank today. I started by siphoning the gravel out with a cut up section of water hose. After I siphoned out a small round section down to the glass and set back to observe, the Discus all went to that section of bare glass and started looking for food. I thought, cool, lets get some more out.

I drained half the water, took a cup, planning to only lift some of the gravel out, but when I pulled the first few cups of it out and it made no mess I figured what the heck, let's get some more. I got a small plastic dustpan out (cleaned it well of course) and went to town. What I did not get with the dustpan I got with the water hose siphon. Before I knew it, all of the gravel had been removed.

Those daily gravel vacs for the last 16 days had really done the job. I did not have a mess on my hands as the gravel was really clean. The water did not cloud up and almost no floaties.

Regardless, the fish seem to prefer the barebottom, which would make sense because that is they way the breeder raised them.

I've added a bags of established BioMax to each of the HOB filters to compensate for the lost beneficial bacteria. My primary concern is starting a mini-cycle, but with two Penguin 170s (using third party clamshells with sponges and blue bonded padding), a Magnum 350 (with Penguin Pro 60 Biowheels, the media chamber filled with Eheim Ehfisubstrat, and a sponge prefilter on the intake) and an Azoo Oxygen Plus 4 Sponge filter, there should be plenty of biofiltration remaining. Any mini-cycle would be very short lived.

The fish appear more active now than before. As I said, it appears they prefer the bare bottom tank.

Hi Kmuda, Welcome to SD. Remember you from the Oscar site, your are on the Advice team there right ?
Even I started with a gravel bottom but later removed all the gravel without disturbing the fish a bit. I kept a large tub in the bathroom & used a 2" hose to siphon the gravel while filling up the tank at the same time. All the gravel was gone :) All the fish are living happily ever since. I got 14 nos 2" in exachange of my 4 oscars. Lost 1 during the 'gravel era'. Now 4 months later all are 5"+ :)

[kmuda]

Yep.. it's me, from OscarFish. I actually started with Discus, a long time ago, and then moved away from them. I'm now getting back into them, with hopes, a few years from now, of breeding them. There are no breeders (I am aware of) in my area and no LFS within 100+ miles carry Discus.

Still have my Oscar though.... can't get rid of my water dog, and all of my other fish as well. :D

[White Worm]

i've had them for 6months and they are about 4 inches now. They were 2-3 inches when i got them


Very slow growth rate I'd say :(


I would agree. The fish would be somewhere in the neighborhood of 8-10 months old and that is behind in growth especially if that is total length (nose tip to tail tip). You are better off growing the young ones in BB tank.

[johnm]

what is considered a normal growth rate?

[Deepak]

what is considered a normal growth rate?

I'd say at least 1" per month or two at the most. Experts will correct me though.

[kmuda]

Thought I'd post a photo or two of my new Discus in their new Barebottom tank.

I'm not sure I like the bb tank. Everytime I walk by it I see some poo or uneaten food that needs to come out. I now have two buckets as permanent fixtures in my living room (next to this tank). One contains the stuff that get's siphoned out (until dumped) and the other replacement water. :p :)

Not only am I performing about 25% water changes per day (50% on Sat. and Sun.) but the bb is forcing to change another 2.5 gallons several times per day. :D

A few photos if anyone is interested.
http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s279/kmuda/P1010067.jpg

http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s279/kmuda/P1010018.jpg

http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s279/kmuda/P1010012.jpg

http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s279/kmuda/P1010021.jpg

[weeble]

thats exactly the purose of it..how many water changes were you doing before the BB?? all your seeing was there as well just camouflaged...and thus spoiling water conditions guarantee your water is of better quality now! :)

Craig

[kmuda]

I was keeping nitrates below 5ppm with the gravel and I'm keeping them the same without it. I have not witnessed a measurable water quality difference with the bare bottom vs. gravel.

I had a flat decoration, with sides, that was the "feeding station" so I did not have much uneaten food getting to the gravel.

I was religious on the gravel vacs. I had been so effective that removing the gravel did not even make a mess or cloud the water.

I'm not going to change it. I'll leave it bare bottom, at least until the fish are grown.

I am probably changing more water now because everytime I walk by the tank and see the poo collecting in the normal spots I vacuum it out and replace the water. Not a bad thing. It's just driving the wife crazy having the buckets and siphon hose as permanent fixtures in the living room. She'll get over it. :)

Any input as to the appearence of health and quality (or lack of) of the Discus would be appreciated.

[tdr1919]

I have a 72 gal tank with a sand (1/2") bottom, and some ornaments for my Discus to hide in and behind. I have had this setup for years. I siphon the
dirt from the sand, every other day, it amounts to about a 12% change in water. Some of my discus are 6 years old ( 8 adults total) I feed FBW, beefheart and FBS. My fish are healthy & happy they will lay eggs in this tank.
I have three BB tanks (30,20, 29) which I use for quarantine & breeding.
My 72 will always be decorative, it is the centerpiece in my home, and as long as my fish are happy I will keep it this way, it sounds like you are an experienced fish keeper, and your cleaning practices are sound, so keep the gravel!
Tom