help me with dying fry!!! [Archive]

dandestroy

04-09-2007, 12:52 PM

This is weird I still have one fry dying every day.

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?t=56924

I have around 200 to 250 fry in a 25 gallon BB tank with an hydro V sponge.

They are now at 3 weeks and 3 days, size of a dime, maybe a touch bigger.

Temp is 82.5 F, I do WC either twice 50% or one 90 % per day, with 24 hr aged water at exact same temp. I wipe the full tank twice a week, and sqeeze the sponge at that time as well in aged water.

I feed 4 times decap, freshly hatched BBS, and 3 times hikary FBW (that I taw before serving). they eat everything in no time. when I feed them their belly is flat and 30 min after they look really full.

I'm about to add a hot magnum with micron cartridge to help cleanliness.
I have treated with prazipro, I have also tried EM tabs for couples of days.

All the fry looks real good, but every day there is one dying.
don't knwo what to do, don'T know where to try more.

I'm trying redosing prazipro that I remove with WC for a couple of day, other than that my only guess would be that they are choking on FBW but again that would be a surprise.

LizStreithorst

04-09-2007, 01:59 PM

I's try either a larger tank or larger twice daily WC. Just a guess.

AADiscus

04-09-2007, 02:23 PM

With that many fry I would split them up into two or maybe even 3 tanks. I would wipe your tank down every day or at least every other day. With that load and the feeding of bbs your sponge filter and your tank is going to get dirty pretty fast. You can rub your finger on the inside glass and fill the slime at times. CLEAN, WC, CLEAN, WC MORE. You can never clean and wc enough with fry. IMO

CARY_GLdiscus

04-09-2007, 04:12 PM

I agree with Angela and Liz!

You need way more room and water for that many babies.

hth
Cary Gld!

billeagan

04-09-2007, 04:25 PM

Definitely need a bigger tank

dandestroy

04-09-2007, 05:57 PM

I do actually feel the slime every second day or so.

Ok so I will move them to a 55 gal, that should help.

55 gal still hold some 6 month that I have to give around, I'll try to swap them, but I really want to sterilized that 55 gal with javel before moving the fry to it.

I'll try to compensate with larger water change.

dandestroy

04-10-2007, 01:02 PM

Last night was a long one, moved a cople of 6 months to a 25 gallon, treated the 55 gal with javel, rinse 4 times to completed dryness. over night dry, an other rinse this morning. Filled it with 12 hr aged water, moved the fry in it...and now crossing fingers.

This morning 3 more fry were dead in the 25 gallon, the tank was real dirty even if I had done a real good clean up last night.

AADiscus

04-10-2007, 04:44 PM

Did you move all the fry to the 55 or just some? You will need to clean and rinse your sponge filter really good. Clean the cords/hoses on the filter and your heater. These are known to trap debris and collect alot of slime that you normally would not get with just cleaning the tank glass. Lots of wc's! Keep us posted.

dandestroy

04-10-2007, 05:44 PM

Yep cleaned everything as much as possibly can, to get a real good start in their new environnement.

Just came back from work, and I can already tell that it is a lot better, they behave better, look better, they come to meet me for lunch, and the tank looks real clean now.

I forgot the basic that what they need is pristine water condition. Actually I did not forgot it, I miss evaluated the amount of polution that thise samll litle thing could generate in such a number. Lesson learned.

here is a few pick of them lunching on BBS

http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l212/dandestroy/temp/Photo027.jpg

http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l212/dandestroy/temp/Photo028.jpg

http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l212/dandestroy/temp/Photo024.jpg

Darren's Discus

04-10-2007, 11:17 PM

looks like there back on track to becoming big healthy adults !

keep up them wc's

cheers

Deepak

04-11-2007, 12:59 AM

All is well that ends well :) Good job dandestroy:thumbsup: BTW why are fry called fry :confused: just wondering...

cbkok97

04-11-2007, 03:30 AM

Good luck with your babies Dandestroy. Post more pictures when they grow up. What type of discus are they?

Cheers,
Brandon

dandestroy

04-11-2007, 09:18 AM

4 dead this morning, I will guess (and hope) that they died from damages already done to their system in the preceeding days. If so dying should decrease in 3 days for sure and not increase by next week.

They are a cross between a LSS and a red turq

here his the male with some fry, and than the female

http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l212/dandestroy/Maze_pico/IMG_1397_1.jpg

http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l212/dandestroy/Maze_pico/IMG_1196_1-1.jpg

brewmaster15

04-11-2007, 09:39 AM

Francois,
Be sure that you don't over feed them... If the dead ones bellies are very very extended, they may have eaten too much.

Hth,
al

Alight

04-11-2007, 11:04 AM

I have had some batches do that--a few fry die off each day, no matter what I do to try to prevent it. Then other batches, none die at all. This happens whether they are large batches or small batches, very clean tanks or not so clean.

I've pretty much chalked it up to genetic interaction with environment, since certain crosses seem to have different amounts of this sort of thing.

With as many as you have, not to worry. You will be culling more than the unexpected deaths eventually, anyway.

Typically, this unexplained death thing begins when the fry are about 3/4ths inch and continues until they are 2+ inches, then stops completely.

I don't believe gill flukes are the problem since treating for gill flukes doesn't stop the problem, and not treating for them seems to give the same results.

Not that gill flukes can't be a problem, just not the only problem.

Good luck, keep up the water changes, and have fun with them.

Al Light

dandestroy

04-11-2007, 04:25 PM

1 more dead this afternoon, stomach is flat does not look like overeating, in fact all dead fish look completely like the living healthy one.

Don'T know if it's me getting parano, but I'm starting to think that maybe the FBW should be served thaw instead of frozen???? or maybe FBW is still to big for these fish?? one fill their stomach full and then they have issue digesting so much?

Should I try salt or are they to young for that?

what about temp, its around 86 now, should I try high temp in case its some kind of flagelate that are making trouble

Green Country Discus

04-11-2007, 09:06 PM

If you are still feeding bbs,make sure that your hatching containers are cleaned often and well.

brewmaster15

04-11-2007, 09:36 PM

Maybe instead of FZN bloodworms...try crushed flake.

another really good food for fry that size is ocean nutrition formula 1 frzn.

-al

dandestroy

04-11-2007, 11:12 PM

Ok so tonight back from a wine and cheese, and there is 4 more dead in the tank. Its weird since it does affect any size fish, if it was only the smallest this would suggest genetics defect or something but no.

I have look at 2 dying slowly in front of me: basically they seems to be gasping for air, they are breading deeply with big expansions of their gills, they really look like if they are gasping for air. In the same time they stop swimming and let themselves slowly drift in the flow of the tank (small current form the sponge filter, nothing heavy). They drift in any direction, they get flipped upside down and they don't even try to correct their buoyancy, after 1 to 2 hr they are flat dead on the bottom, stomach looks pretty much normal which rule out constipation.

I have check the water parameter:
temp 86
TDS 180
nitrate, nitrite, ammo: 0
pH 7

storage barrel, exact same temp, everything clean and looking good.

did a 90% WC, tank feels spotless, changed the old sponge that was feeling muddy/slimy when squeezing it with a new one... maybe something is wrong with it and it killing my litle guys (At this point I don't care much about having a cycled one, I can always rely on massive water change)
:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

don't know what to do anymore, they look so fine and dye so fast. bacterial would be my best pick at this point

So I've decided to try furan-2, for a full treatment, might as well try it instead of loosing them all. SO 1 capsule per 10 gallon, will re-dose what is remove with WC for couples of days. From my experience with bacterial infection you can tell pretty much after 3 days if you have found the right meds. (only other thing left to try that comes to mind would be real high temp and salt)

I'm just no able to watch them die without trying something, If Al light is right it will keep on dying anyways and I will know better for next batch.

Keep the suggestion coming please, and thank for your support.

Deepak

04-12-2007, 12:44 AM

I know exactly how you feel. I had the same problem with Angel 'fry' (my question is still unanswered - why call them 'fry'). I got best results using tetracycline. But since they are gasping for air can't it be a gill flukes prob ?

dandestroy

04-12-2007, 09:18 AM

3 more dead this morning, I forgot to mention that I have stopped feeding fresh BBS and that I'm feeding home made Decaped eggs only. This should help reduce the polution, and the frys go for them anyways.

I will also try crushed color bite and flake as suggested instead of FBW.

basiccaly I am changing everything that I can change just in case.

I even had a weird dreem last night, were some fish that I had own long time ago (tiger barb, cory and gourami) had appear in that tank. In my dream I guessed that they made it back form the drain pipe where they were since the last year and a half because of the Furan-2. They were pooping ink like a squid as crazy which was killing my litle discus fry. :D I'm loosing it :D

kaceyo

04-12-2007, 09:59 AM

brewmaster15

04-12-2007, 10:17 AM

I'm feeding home made Decaped eggs only.when was this change made Francois?maybe they aren't fully decps?

-al

AADiscus

04-12-2007, 11:16 AM

Make sure and keep lots of air going in the tank also.

pcsb23

04-12-2007, 02:47 PM

Francois,

It could be that the fry were compromised at some point and are just very vulnerable to any minor ailment. It is possible its just a weak batch too, sadly that happens. I have found that 1 drop of acriflavine per gallon can work in these cases and is quite safe.

I know of one UK based breeder that uses copper, but great care needs to be excersied if you go this route.

kaceyo

04-12-2007, 04:05 PM

Do any of the dead fry have full stomachs?
Al, if the problem were due to BBS shells being eaten would the fry have full stomachs due to blockage, empty stomachs from not eating, or would that even be an indicater?

Kacey

dandestroy

04-12-2007, 05:46 PM

IMO changing the diet isn't going to help. What meds have you tried so far and were followup treatments done? Whats the current WC schedule? I'd try some formalin or FMG before starting antibiotics. Just to eliminate that possibility if nothing else.
Good luck

changing diet because I thinking that something in it might be killing them such as issue with my BBS hatching.
I have tried prazipro, 1 dose at day 14 with one follow up at 3 weeks. I have tried EM tabs 2 caps per 10 gallon, for 5 days (prety mild but effective in my experience). And now I'm trying Furan-2 for a full treament (I think its 5 days, can't recall).

I know that I'm going to get hammered about hitting with meds like that and not letting clean water do the job, but clearly if clean water was the issue form the start, 2 days after the move in the 55 gal, problem should be solved not increased.

when was this change made Francois?maybe they aren't fully decps?

This was changed this morning just in case something was wrong with my hatching (based form hatching they are fully decps), but I could try Frozen BBS for a few days.

Make sure and keep lots of air going in the tank also.

2 hydro 5 bubling nicely, 1 air stone in one of the corner, and one 6" stick making enough buble to move all the water of that aquarium.

Do any of the dead fry have full stomachs?

they don't look full but their shape shows that they do eat, they don'T show sign of lack of food when compared with a few samller skinny discus that are still alive.

It could be that the fry were compromised at some point and are just very vulnerable to any minor ailment. It is possible its just a weak batch too, sadly that happens. I have found that 1 drop of acriflavine per gallon can work in these cases and is quite safe. I know of one UK based breeder that uses copper, but great care needs to be excersied if you go this route.

this could make sense since they were probably in a high bioload when they were in the 25 gal, and this might have hurt some of them permanently. But like I said I just cannnot just watch them die convincing me that its normal at this point. But once I try everything in my hand then I will let it go. So will check on that acriflavine, but after the fran-2 treatment I will definitively let then rest for a full 7 to 10 days in clean water before trying new meds.

Just got a new micron cartridge for my Hot magnum, so I should be hooking this up tonight. I don't think It should interfer with any meds right???

kaceyo

04-12-2007, 07:30 PM

Francois,
I was just thinking that if it were a parasite like flukes, it could take a few treatments close together before you'd notice the mortality rate dropping. If it were flukes, more eggs would be hatching and reinfesting every day.
Hope ya get it figured out soon.

Kacey

dandestroy

04-13-2007, 12:05 AM

Now that I think of it I remmeber seing a couples of fry when they were14-18 days old flraing there side on the bottom of the tank. This would happen rarely so I did not got to concer about it.

I have lost 6 of them today.

Also I have isolated the eggs at the beginning with metyl blue maybe this has affected the fry after all (but I doubt that a bit)

I have hooked a hotmagnum with micron cartridge, I have changed 90% of the water and have added salt to 1 tablespoon per 10 gallon, I have redosed prazipro. and will redose it everyday for 5 days. I wanted to mix it up with Furan-2 but I got scared that I'm going to kill them all if I do so.

steve.ryall

04-13-2007, 06:51 AM

LizStreithorst

04-13-2007, 07:11 AM

dandestroy

04-13-2007, 10:13 AM

Hi Francois,

I have had this problem too several times, to date I have not actually got any fry past 3.5 - 4 weeks due to this die off, it is very difficult to watch, so I really sympathise with what you are going through.
You are getting lots of good help, and I cannot add any more to what has been said, but can you tell me, at what age did you remove the parent fish from the fry? I am believing that next time I decide to try to raise fry, I am really going to leave the parents with the fry for as long as possible. Something to do with better imunity from conditions/parasites the longer they can feed from the adults.

I wish you luck with the remaining fish.

Steve:)

thanks for your support.

I have tried to leave the fry as long as I could, my goal was to reach the 4 weeks, but as they got bigger I said ok lets aim for the 3 weeks, but at the 2 week mark they were a lot bigger than expected (and in a 21 gal, so a little tight).

parents were a starting to show biting mark all over their boddy at that point.

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?t=56559

This tread show them after 5 day. I'll have to dig to find 2 weeks pics later today (to bad for the last comment did not happen that way :p )

my setup in boston will be different, will have a 30 gal breeder tank, with one 60 gal standby for the fry. THese will be hook to monster sump of 30 gal.

dandestroy

04-13-2007, 10:20 AM

Francois,
IME, when the first fry dies it's an indicator that the others have been compormised to a certain degree as well. The die off can last for a few days or continue if fry have been badly damaged.

Does seems appropriate in my situation

I learned the hard way about not jumping on gill flukes immediately. Now, if I see one or two fry flash, it's time for treatment. Good luck with the rrest of the batch.

You know this is the second mistakes I did I believe (first one was to move them to a 25 gal when It should have been to the 55 right away). I did one quick treatment, I was scare that the med would hurt them so I did not follow what I would have done with adult.

I wondering if I should have gone with formalin treatment instead of prazipro on fry right from the start. Which one is the best?

pcsb23

04-13-2007, 11:49 AM

Francois, I would use FMG (formalin and malachite green) because its cheaper than prazi, both are excellent though imo.

tony1313

04-13-2007, 12:22 PM

I had the same problem before. Losing about 2-3 a day, water changes and cleaning didn't help. Fry didn't show signs of flukes (no flashing) but I treated for flukes. The fry lost appitite for a couple days and are now eating like pigs and stopped dieing off. IMO treat for flukes a few days after the formalin is done (if it doesn't work).

dandestroy

04-15-2007, 11:45 PM

Ok I'm beyond hope, they keep on dying 5-10 per day.

I have now officially switched in an experimental state. Instead of culling the holw batch I'm going to try to learn by trying, but at this point I don't care much if I kill them all trying something that you would'nt do normally. (such as mixing prazi with something else, or double dozing...)

If I find anything usefull out of this I'll make sure to report it.

thank again for all your help (can't wait to move out to Boston and start form scratch with only one clean desease free pair and no other discus) and dirty equipment.

brewmaster15

04-16-2007, 05:01 AM

Francois,

If you want to experiment....

Set aside some of the fry and try kanamycin sulfate (1/4 teaspoon per 20G) +metronidazole (250-500mg per 10 gal).

One treatment of prazi should destroy all adult flukes, IMO..

one note on when you used furan 2....

So I've decided to try furan-2, for a full treatment, might as well try it instead of loosing them all. SO 1 capsule per 10 gallon, will re-dose what is remove with WC for couples of days. From my experience with bacterial infection you can tell pretty much after 3 days if you have found the right meds. (only other thing left to try that comes to mind would be real high temp and salt)
you said 1 capsule/10 gal and replace whats taken out with wc...thats not a good way to use that med IMO>>> first dose double dose..then 50 %-80% water change per day..followed by 1 capsule per 10 gal after each wc. The dose you used was too low.

last note...have you checked your water parameters recently?

-al

kaceyo

04-16-2007, 09:42 AM

What have you tried so far? Did you ever try formalin or FMG? If so for how long and at what dose? As Al mentioned, Antibiotics need to be added at full dose each day after the wc.

dandestroy

04-16-2007, 11:35 AM

Set aside some of the fry and try kanamycin sulfate (1/4 teaspoon per 20G) +metronidazole (250-500mg per 10 gal).

One treatment of prazi should destroy all adult flukes, IMO..

one note on when you used furan 2....

you said 1 capsule/10 gal and replace whats taken out with wc...thats not a good way to use that med IMO>>> first dose double dose..then 50 %-80% water change per day..followed by 1 capsule per 10 gal after each wc. The dose you used was too low.

last note...have you checked your water parameters recently?

Yes I have checked all my water parameters yesterday (again lol) everything is good.

I don't have any kanamycine, but I'll try to see if someone around me has some.

point taken on furan-2 I'll try that next time I use it.

At this point I'm pretty sure that there is not much bacteria alive in that tank and that if it was fluke it would be over now.

I'm going to try some PP (2mg/L or as required to maintain color for 4 hr... will repeat 3 times every 2 days) (will be usefull in sterelizing my equipment as well), but since it looks like a major gill issue they might all die with that treatment. Maybe I'll give a shot at formalin since I just got my hand on some before I do the PP (I'll use 0.020 ml / L no idea if I need to repeat here???). (could not find any malachite green, where do you buy that stuff).

I read a lot of stuff lately and I'm beginning to pinpoint the issue I beleive that I'm dealing with a severe case of Costia or trichodina.
I'm really starting to regret not having started with formalin if this happen to be true. You see I always asume that flashing and rubbing what THE sign of fluke, but I just found out that this assumption was wrong. Will see and learn I guess. (better that this happen on my first major spawn that on a full fishroom I guess)

zfish

04-16-2007, 12:47 PM

Francois,
For what its worth your not alone. I am having the same problem with a group of about 50 fry. Well, actually, it's now closer to 40. The fry all look and act great, but every day one or two will hang close to the top and become listless and die within another day. There just really is nothing about it you can hang your hat on. I tried metro, but felt it was iffy as I did not see any hanging white feces. After reading the posts I decided to try copper as I have had positive results with this medication. Given the suddeness of death after onset, it seems a bacterial problem is not as likely. I will let you know what happens. Of course your problem might be from a different cause, but the symptoms appear identical. Dan

dandestroy

04-16-2007, 07:34 PM

maybe tomorow I will tell you what works and not. going to try formalin tonigh.

brewmaster15

04-16-2007, 07:39 PM

Be sure not to mix the formalin and PP...it can be explosive at the worst and not good for the fry at the best.

Good luck,
al

dandestroy

04-16-2007, 09:10 PM

Yeah I read that it create paraformaldehyde when you mix them together and is likely to kill everything (including the problem...haha).

So here is what I did, 100% WC, formalin treatment 1ml/10gal.

got everything such as net and bucket into 500mg/liter in PP to disinfect.

So should I repeat formalin every day after WC or is this a one shot thing?

zfish

04-17-2007, 11:08 AM

Well, it's so far so good. I did treat yesterday with copper. I also decided to continue with metro. I lost one later in the day, but it was clearly a gonner anyway. Today they all look and eat good with no sign of stress. Dan

dandestroy

04-18-2007, 11:33 AM

No dead fish this morning. don't know if its because of the formalin I guess if number of death per day decrease in the next few day I will conclude so.

zfish

04-23-2007, 08:28 AM

Hopefully, this will be my last post. The copper and metro did not work. I used Parasite Clear for three straight days and now I've gone two days with no dying or dead fish. Francois, I'd be interested to know how things turn out for you. Dan

dandestroy

04-23-2007, 11:54 AM

ok so I've tried formalin, but fish kept on dying after all, at a reduce rate, which is probably explain by the fact that there is less fry to die anyway. so percentage wise I'm still loosing the same amount everyday.

So now today I'm trying a 4hr 2mg/l of PP... beautifull purple.

will see.

keep me posted Dan about that parasite clear efficiency.

AADiscus

04-23-2007, 04:38 PM

If you are putting them in a pp treat be sure and keep a close eye on them. A 4 hr treat is pretty long for that young of fry unless your mixture is pretty weak. JME

dandestroy

04-23-2007, 10:37 PM

so I did the PP, the color was thick purple, and stayed like that for exatly 5 hr and them turned brown, so everything went as planned.

some of the fry showed some sign of having enough of it, but them 20 min after 100% WC they were looking pretty good.

will see if I get positive result out of this.

zfish

04-24-2007, 08:57 AM

Francois,
Today is the third straight day of no dead or dying fish, so I'm getting pretty confident. Another note: A few days ago I had a fish that was close to the end. It was not moving much and staying near the top. I was going to fish him out and toss him but left him in. He miraculously recovered. Another reason to think this treatment did the job. I hope you can get the same result. This treatment is cheap and easy to do so I recommend giving it a try if the pp does not do the job. Dan