Water Softeners: An Experiment?

[RandalB]

Hi all,
I've always heard that keeping discus in water processed by a water softener is a bad idea based on the Sodium Content of the water. Now, as I have recently moved to a "Liquid Rock" type area and my house is equipped with a water softener I have been considering doing an experiment in softened water.

Details:

Raw (unsoftened) water is pH 8.6, 650PPM with very high (got tired of dropping..) gH and kH.

Softended water is pH 6-6.2 650PPM, kH of 0 (no Mg or Ca present)

The water softener is doing it's job of stripping out the hardness minerals with no other water issues.

What I'd like to try:

75 Gallon, 15-18 2.5" Discus (multiple strains), Auto W/C system (Surge type 55 gallon drum, gravity drain in main tank) doing 50% every other day. Standard Aquaclear and Sponge filters. Accepted feeding regimen (Flake, granules, Frozen Food, etc)

The water will be processed through a calcite filter to stabilize it at pH 7.0 and give slight carbonate hardness to keep pH from fluctuation. Temp Set in the normal accepted 82-84F range.

What I hope to see:
It being possible to raise discus in water that's been processed through a water softener.

If so, this will be of tremendous value to people that live with very hard water conditions that rely on time consuming methods such as: RO,Water storage,Peat treating, Rainwater trapping and water conditioners.

Any input from anyone? Anyone think this may be a valid test or worth the effort?

RandalB

[born2lovefish]

LET ME KNOW YOUR RESULTS! I'd just like to know if one can keep discus in normal tap water as long as one uses the drip method to introduce the discus to the tank.

[LizStreithorst]

Randal, It sounds like a fun experiment. Will you be keeping another group in liquid rock and a 3rd in an RO/tap mix?

[RandalB]

Liz,
Nope, I think enough people are doing those now. I am just interested to find out of the "Sodium Content" is lethal or no. I don't think there is enough present to do damage, but we'll see if I go with it.

RandalB

[discussmith]

I feel for you on the hardness. I thought I had it bad at 320ppm PH 9.0.
I have successfully raised discus in my tap water but always used RO for pairs. While wanting to know if they can be grown the next would be can they breed. I too have oftened wondered about sodium and having always heard that sodium was bad no one ever stated at what levels. At 650 ppm failure would only tell a partial story as one might be able to cut it by 25% to 50% and have success. Success at your levels would certainly make it a myth . Good luck. I hope you succeed.

[Polar_Bear]

I feel for you on the hardness. I thought I had it bad at 320ppm PH 9.0.
I have successfully raised discus in my tap water but always used RO for pairs. While wanting to know if they can be grown the next would be can they breed. I too have oftened wondered about sodium and having always heard that sodium was bad no one ever stated at what levels. At 650 ppm failure would only tell a partial story as one might be able to cut it by 25% to 50% and have success. Success at your levels would certainly make it a myth . Good luck. I hope you succeed.

Our 125 gallon had a successful spawn (got to wriggler stage) in GH 11 water. Our water out of the tap is GH 8, but that tank gets the "waste" water from our RO unit (it's a sort of drip system).

[fishmama]

I think it would be very interesting to see the results of your experiment!

[White Worm]

My house water goes through a water softener and my discus live just fine. GH 9-11. I use straight tap. Even had a spawn in the water not even treated. I added RO and got better hatch rate. I have been doing w/c with straight tap and the babies are still doing great.

[GC_PAUL]

RandallB
Go for it, I also am on well and all water goes through the softner that is used on my discus.I raised 15 MR and Mellons to 5"--7" and last one to tank jumping. For me I have seen no sodium related problem.

[Jason]

I'm in the same boat Randal, the well I'm on now ph over 8, gh18, kh over 30 yes 30, tds 600 something, I've had good results in really hard water, but not this hard. right now by-passing the softener and fish are just fine.

[jeep]

Your water sounds like mine in the winter time!

The people I have talked to who have had water softeners/discus problems, haven't really had lethal issues but rather overly skittish to the point of going ballistic and ramming the sides of the tank. No scientific evidence to provide, but using back to straight tap water seems to have had extremely positive results. My guess has always been more of a lack of minerals and such rather than a high sodium content. I think you won't see results for some time but I'd be interested in those results if/when they do arise...

P.S. another thought... A lot of softener salt has additives included to protect pipes. Could this also be an issue???

[Tropical Haven]

Randal,
You should not have any problems keeping discus in straight tap water that went through a water softner. Back in the early 90's I raised my discus in water through a softner for 10 years and even bred them in the same water because my water was harder than yours is and they did absolutely fine for me. Where I live now I am luckier because even though my PH is 8.4, my hardness is at 90ppm. Good luck and let us know how your experiment works but I do believe that your discus will do just fine without a problem.

[fishmama]

Here are the results of my Household Water Softener Experiement:

The current pair (purchased as sub-adults) and spawn are doing great. The large MP I purchased about 1 year ago as a sub-adult, as you can see he grew out quite well. All these fish are in 100% softened water and have been since I have had them. I only lost 1 Cobalt within the first 48 hrs of introduction into the new tank from a breeder with non-softened water. He also came from a BB tank. He darted and crashed all over the tank until basically he killed himself. Don't know if it was "softened" water related. Perhaps fish coming from non-softener water may have to adjust osmotically somehow...maybe osmotic stress killed him? Don't really know, but every other fish has done very well upon introduction.

[fishmama]

Below is a response I made to an earlier thread based on my research:





Re: Well water/softener
Hi Andrew-

Just my experience, I have my discus (and all my other fish) in water softened via household water softener. I have had no problems as a result. I know that a lot of people will tell you "no, it's not good", but no one has yet to correctly explain why. Most will tell you that "it adds salt". This is a falacy...an "urban legend" if you will. Modern household softeners (e.g. GE Smartwater) use ion exchange resins/beads. Some use K+ , some use Na+ to charge the resin beads. This is why you load the salt crystals (NaCl) into the reservoir. The beads (which are in an adjacent reservoir) are charged which "loads" the resin with NaCl. When the incoming water from the well (or city supply) washes over the beads, the Ca+ and Mg+ are "attracted" to these resins more strongly, and they release the Na+ into the water in "exchange." The end result CaCl2 and MgCl2 are washed down the drain and the Na+ is what ends up in your household water supply. It is important to note that Na+ is NOT salt (NaCl). Much like NH3 (toxic, free ammonia) is very different from NH4+ (ammonium ion, non-toxic form.)

That being said...if a species doesn't like "hard" water (Ca+ and Mg+) they most likely won't care for Na+ either. This exchange occurs on a 2:1 ratio I believe, so you are still ending up with what the fish experiences as "hard" water.

I have chosen to "dial down" my softener (causing it to recharge less and leave more Ca+ and Mg+ in our water). Most household softeners have this "hardness" setting option.

I also only have fish bred and raised in my area, so they are already used to our water in the midwest. My TDS reads 325 post-softener. And believe it or not, my pair still spawns and produces free swimmers. I use no RO with my discus. However, conventional Gh tests show my water to be very "soft"...most likely due to the absence of Ca+ and Mg+.

I would just advise your client to research how their softener actually works. And apply that knowledge to what we know discus can thrive in. Just be careful to weed thru the info out there...much is incorrect. Also, well water can be very, very high in nitrates and harmful bacteria due to farm, etc runoff. I do not know how you would rectify that. Well water quality can fluctuate wildly depending on the season, rain, etc.

hth
Lisa
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Last edited by fishmama : 03-12-2007 at 07:01 PM. Reason: molecular equation

[Jason]

Hi Lisa,

very good info thank-you! what was your parameters pre-softner?

[fishmama]

Jason-
Here are some of my water parameters.

pre-softener : post-softener

pH 10.25 : 10.25

KH 2 : 2

Alkalinity 36 avg

GH 8 : 1

TDS 210-325 : same

[Jason]

Jason-
Here are some of my water parameters.

pre-softener : post-softener

pH 10.25 : 10.25

KH 2 : 2

Alkalinity 36 avg

GH 8 : 1

TDS 210-325 : same


thanks you gave me the courage to take the plunge and use the softner water.

[fishmama]

Super...I'm sure you will do just fine. You might want to check the "hardness" setting on your softener unit and adjust it to recharge less, thus leaving the water a bit harder (leaves some calcium and magnesium in).

hth
Lisa

[B-O-F]

Sorry to drag back an old post but is there any further info on this ?

RandelB, did you go ahead with your experiment ?

[fishmama]

B-O-F,

Try the "Search" engine here located at the top in the blue band. There are different ideas and opinions.

hth,
Lisa