Ugly fish

[jack396]

My fiirst six fish were purchased from a breeder that I spotted on the web; when I called he seemed like a nice guy and I bought the fish. They arrived in great shape; they were eating the first night and they have never looked back. However, now when I look at them and compare what I'm seeing posted on the web, I find at least three of the six are pointy headed, and the largest one, a BD, though dominant and brilliant in color, has the most accentuated pointed head and oversized brilliant red eyes.

I'm beginning to think I was given a few culls. Or, is it possible that this 3" or so fish will grow into his body and round off a bit? (say yes someone) I cannot show a picture as I need to get that equipment next.

It's another story of ignorance being bliss. Before I saw the "judge my fish thread" and others like it, I thought he was a pretty good find ( the breeder told me he underpriced him for me.) I should have known there ain't nothing free in this life, especially from strangers...

[April]

your in good company. we all start the same way...it takes awhile to have an eye for discus. and of course..first all you see are the pretty colours..especially with the spotteds..everyone says wow..cause the spots blind them.
its ok..they got you going..and now your set up and ready to start your adventure once again. im sure tons has changed over the years. well lots of new strains..but stilll lots similar.

[fishmama]

JW-

Everyone has been there at some point. The great news is they seem to be "alive and healthy"...and the learning curve is a big one in the discus hobby. No fish is meant forever...there will be lots to learn and more to choose from in the future.

I actually adore my lil' stunted guy...and most likely my own fault, and he still has attitude to spare!

[Rod]

..especially with the spotteds..everyone says wow.. Well not my wife, 1st time i bought some spotteds home she wanted to know what was wrong with them thinking the spots were a disease....seriously!! I don't think i ever told her what they cost after that :D

[Lizard King]

Yeah, the price is something I try to avoid with the wife. :wasntme:

Greg

[pheonix]

Lets put it this way..any beginner compare their fish with the ones here will think their fish are not so as beautiful but that does not make them culls.

Enjoy your fish, feed them well. Can always add to your collection once you know what you like.

when I bought I checkerboard, he look rather skinny, even in one of my pic he looked out of shape. Some people say he is stunted but I didnt give up and now he is a beautiful looking fish.

So have patience:)

[mmorris]

Yup, been there! Now I wouldn't stray from the sponsor's section. Martha

[Jason]

being able to grow out nice round discus is a skill in itself regardless of the quality of fish you start out with.

[jack396]

Jason,

i'm interested in that assertion, please elaborate. I was one who believed that genetics played a controling role in body shape, beyond simply receiving proper nutrition. Are you suggesting that care can supercede genetics?

[White Worm]

Of course shape and size have to do with genetics but there is much to say about how a discus is raised no matter what its heritage. If you have them in a BB, very clean tank and feed them lot of varied healthy foods, your percentage of nicely shaped disc's greatly improves. There is ultimately going to be the ones that just dont do well no matter where they came from or what their environment and those are culls. If you put the best babies in a dirty tank and didnt feed them, they would not turn out well no matter who the parents were. If your fish dont keep within the standards that most go by here, its fine to keep them as pets but you will end up later looking at things differently when you start to upgrade your collection. I do believe that is what you are doing now just by asking the questions. Yes, most people have been where you are. You start as a newbee and get some not-so-nice discus because you dont know any better. Then you know better and get nicer ones. That happens in almost every hobby because it is human nature to curve the expense until you have the experience.

[dwilder]

Remember there are some very nice high quality discus even show winners on this site so just because yours dont quite look as good as some of these dont be to disappointed

[pheonix]

definitely good food and care will help to groom your discus unless the discus is shaped like a koi...then too bad...:)

[pheonix]

Perhaps I can post the pics of my ugly babe and his/her progress from:

1Oth April

http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z30/Pheonix898/uglypigeon.jpg
28th April
http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z30/Pheonix898/stunty.jpg

20May
http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z30/Pheonix898/ulgy20may.jpg

Not a prettiest but I actually returned him to lFS and went to get him back after one day....:o :) :D

[Jason]

Jason,

i'm interested in that assertion, please elaborate. I was one who believed that genetics played a controling role in body shape, beyond simply receiving proper nutrition. Are you suggesting that care can supercede genetics?


Sure Jack,

yes genetics has a major role but it has more to with phenotype traits such as colour and body type.
More important factors are water quality, nutrition, and a stress and desease free enviroment.

I and many others have had some pretty nasty(although again they could be nasty because of the way they were raised) pairs throw excellent quality frys. I've also seen 2" "culls" turned around with the proper care and of course perfect 2"ers just ruined in the wrong hands.

[April]

you did pretty good with that fish phoenix.
ive seen some fish with great genetics ruined..within a few weeks to a month. stressed..not eating.white poo..sick and bony.
those show fish you see have been babied..and fed healthy foods..tons of wcs..but of course they also kept a big group and grew them all out to choose those show fish.
theres also the ones who were homebred or havent been through as much shipping that get a better start. shipping sets them back some. they get fasted..shipped..then new tank..etc. if they are strong they get going again pretty quick. if stressed..then setbacks.
i had one who had great genetics..had a setback and on the verge of stunting..i did large wcs a day..and they went into a growth spurt..and turned out to be some of my nicest fish. spawned..and raised a few batches.

[Rod]

theres also the ones who were homebred or havent been through as much shipping that get a better start. shipping sets them back some. they get fasted..shipped..then new tank..etc. if they are strong they get going again pretty quick. if stressed..then setbacks.


So true, my biggest fish are homebreds. Some fish i have received from Roy Khoo are also very big, but on the whole imports don't tend to grow quite as big imo.

But as Jason said, most of these mistakes are enviromental rather than genetic and great babies can result from ugly ducklings.

Rod:)

[pheonix]

So true, my biggest fish are homebreds. Some fish i have received from Roy Khoo are also very big, but on the whole imports don't tend to grow quite as big imo.

But as Jason said, most of these mistakes are enviromental rather than genetic and great babies can result from ugly ducklings.

Rod:)

I second that!:D

[pheonix]

Thanks April!

I am so glad I got him back from LFS alive!

He is a greedy and fisty discus:D

You can never really tell with discus how they will turn out when they are grown.

I do have a so call Yellow discus, he was a solid golden yellow, round body at 2ins, but from 3ins onwards, he transformed into a speckled orangy pigeon like discus:confused:

Cant say that I am overjoy about its transformation:mad:

[jack396]

So true, my biggest fish are homebreds. Some fish i have received from Roy Khoo are also very big, but on the whole imports don't tend to grow quite as big imo.

But as Jason said, most of these mistakes are enviromental rather than genetic and great babies can result from ugly ducklings.

Rod:)

Well, Rod, that is good news indeed! Now, I do know that breeders "develop strains by the quality of the parents; it is how they control bloodlines. However, what you say rings true to my ear; out of a large number of fry some will, perhaps, maintain the undesirable trait while others will not. Of course, for me this is entirely specualtion as I have not even had a fish spawn yet. :p

Would you agree, however, that it would be best to start with the handsome fish and work from there? I have established an "ugly" tank in my basement. It is a 55 gallon that I have made active so as to keep the fish that might be culled for brash ugliness in another setting. It will be my experiment. If I get breeders from it - look out! I may develp the world's greatest ugly!!!:bandana:

[mmorris]

The discussion is interesting but a bit vague. What qualities are environmental, and what are genetic? As I understand it:

environmental: size, weight, color

genetic: size, color and pattern, weak or strong chin, good or poor transition to dorsal (:D ), football vs. round, lumpy or smooth forehead, finnage shape...
Martha

[April]

water quality when they are tiny can make strange shaped fins..the dorsal grows funny.
rod can tell you more on this..cause hes bred for years..and even from the same fish he has some spawns that work out and get great fish..then another spawn..same fish dont work out.
jack..its always good to have a few ugly fish for test fish when you get new fish. you add one after a few weeks quarantine..if no problems..then they are clean and can be mixed.

[Rod]

Well, Rod, that is good news indeed! Now, I do know that breeders "develop strains by the quality of the parents; it is how they control bloodlines. However, what you say rings true to my ear; out of a large number of fry some will, perhaps, maintain the undesirable trait while others will not. Of course, for me this is entirely specualtion as I have not even had a fish spawn yet. :p

Would you agree, however, that it would be best to start with the handsome fish and work from there? I have established an "ugly" tank in my basement. It is a 55 gallon that I have made active so as to keep the fish that might be culled for brash ugliness in another setting. It will be my experiment. If I get breeders from it - look out! I may develp the world's greatest ugly!!!:bandana:

Hi Jack,

Yes i do agree it is best to start with the most handsome fish you have when breeding. But i would use less attractive fish in some cases although i think this may need some clarification about what is suitable and what must be avoided in your choice of breeders. Points like size is one feature that absolutely does not worry me. Most strains are genetically capable of reaching 6"+ even if the parents are only 4". It is true there are real genetically improved giant strains available in the discus world that will grow 8"+, but mistakes during the growth of even those will prevent that sort of size along with body depth and thickness.
Shape is a more difficult point as this can be enviromental or genetic or a combination of both imo. As i mentioned perfectly grown discus tend to have thicker deeper bodies, so imo compromised discus will be less thick and have less body depth. But they should still have an overall round look to the fish. Avoid lemon shaped discus, its not worth the risk that it is genetic based. It is possible to breed a poor shape out of a strain, if it has features otherwise that are too good to pass up. A good example of this is lss discus. Not a very good shape when first appeared in the 90's, but due to painstaking breeding they are quite good shaped discus these days.
Pattern is a genetic factor, and color type and intensity is a genetic factor, but strongly influenced by the enviroment and the types of foods fed. If the fish are kept in good water and fed a good diet then the color and pattern will not be affected.
Eye color is genetic, but again influenced by the enviroment , the age, and the health of the fish.
Fin shape is an interesting one i think, i believe it is mostly influenced by genetics....but the enviroment may play a part in it as well. April mentioned some spawns being better that others, i've found this too be true as well. A good example, yesterday i was at a good breeders house. He has a beautiful batch of healthy active looking blue discus. This pair has produced several good spawns before but this time 95% of them have deformed dorsal fins, serverly deformed like bits missing and folded sideways. Also another abnormal feature found was deformed bars, they are all over the place where this pair normally produces nice straight bars and good fins. They are directly corelated as the 5% that have straight normal looking bars also have normal dorsal fins. otherwise the fish look as healthy as any discus. My bet would be this is enviromental causes and not genetic, if the deformed fry were kept and spawned odds on they would be normal. I've had this happen in my fish room as well, my guess is there is some chemical in the tapwater that is a mutagen but my knowledge on this is very limited.

Rod:)