hatching

[CoKen]

hi there

finally, i have my discuses paired up, 48 hours ago, she laid her first batch of eggs (more than 200 eggs from rough estimation), and the male was also doing his job to fertilise those eggs.

i read some books that say it takes about 48 hours to hatch, i look at those fertilised eggs just now, they dont seem to be hatching, some of them turn white, some fungus built up among the eggs.

the male always attacks the female to keep her away the eggs (cone), and he is quarding them.

i did a 50% water change yesterday, i feed twice today (little each time).

they are put in a 80 litres tank especially for them. 27 degree, PH6.8, a internal filter and an air stone.

could you advise me if i m doing the correct things for this family?

what is the ideal water change? and should i feed them as normal (4 times a day) during the hatching period and while the fries are attaching to their parents?

thanks.

rgds
Ken

[Elite Aquaria]

Give them a another 12- 16 hours...Hatching can be slowed down by water temp...27 is not that warm...so it can take a little longer

Dan

[Darren's Discus]

Ken,
how are your eggs going ?

cheers

[CoKen]

guys,

no good no good, all eggs were eaten after 58 hours, dont understand why??? the male was guarding very good since the female finishing her laying. i dont see eggs anymore on the 3rd morning, nor do i see any fries.

i m not sure if the male ate all the eggs or the female did.

any suggestion to prevent them to eat the eggs (apart from putting the net around the egg cone)??

i m still very excited to look forward to seeing what will the young discusses look like, because this pair consists of a blue turquise (female) and leopard skin (male). should be a very interesting match.

rgds
Ken

[Elite Aquaria]

Patients my friend...The key to a successful breeding program is water quality consistency...I have found if the water conditions are not right or if the pair is young they will eat their eggs. Just give them time and make sure your water stays consistent.

Dan

[CoKen]

hi Dan

the water is pretty consistant, i did a 50% water change 24 hours after she laid the eggs, the water parameter is always the same, though not exactly the same, such as the temperature might differ by 1 degree, PH is might differ by less 0.5.

what would you suggest for the hatching period as far as the water change is concerned? daily water change or every 2 days? i m concerned with the disturbance resulted from water change while they are guarding their eggs, this might scare them and as a result they eat the eggs.

rgds
Ken

[CoKen]

guys

tonight comes the second batch of eggs, the male attacks the female for its own reason, poor female.

i will buy a small net to protect those eggs, but not sure if it is still needed, because i wont be able to go to the shop until this weekend, those eggs will be hatched by this weekend should they be lucky enough to escape their parents' mouth.

rgds
Ken

[kaceyo]

Your male may not be firtile yet. I've had pairs spawn up to 20 times before getting viable eggs. It doesn't usually take that long but it can. Get your screen and add an antifungul to the water after they spawn. That will tell you if he's fertilizing. Dan is right Patience is the key.

Kacey

[CoKen]

i just put a net surrounding the cone to protect the eggs, but i m not sure if this will have any impact to the hatching. i guess those eggs should have been fertilised soon after they are laid should they be successfully fertilised. tonight is the second night after they were laid (24 hours ago). i hope this net can help. but i m also worried the parents will also eat the fries once they are hatched.

anyway, will see.

[CoKen]

now 90% of eggs becames Wrigglers with little tail, still attached on the cone behind the protection net.

sad news, as soon as any wrigglers swim out of the net, both parents will open their mouth and chew and swallow without hesitation. the male parent has been taken out of the tank, but the female still waiting next to the net, waiting for her next meal (what a cruel parenting!). i simply turn off all the lights, hopefully she wont see any wrigglers, but they still need to attach to her body anyway, so i dont expext any miracle.

is there anything i can do to convince the parents stop eating their off-springs??

are all young discus parent like this (in-expereinced)? how to improve them?

is there anyone's discus was able to suceed the whole hatching process at their first time?

your comments are welcome and appreciated.


rgds
Ken

[Patson]

Are you sure they were eating them? :)

Maybe they were just picking them up in their mouths and moving them to another place. My pair do that ALOT. Next time when u doubt if they are really eating the fry, observe closely if they spit the fry out later. They can keep multiple fry in their mouth for a pretty long time (like several minutes, then all of the sudden they spit out like 5+ fry)

[CoKen]

i m pretty sure, because i was sitting next to the tank and observe their movement, yes, they sucked into their mouth, and never come out, one occasion, she spit it out, the wriggler is not moving anymore with the tail band, then she ate it again into her mouth, and never come out. i was a bit angry at the eating parents.

thanks for your reply.


rgds
Ken

[Elite Aquaria]

Ken,

First of all do not turn off the light...I leave a night light on 24-7 when my pairs have eggs to day of separation. I shine a small light on top of the tank that causes a shadow to form against the parents.

Why did you remove the male again?

I normally leave parents together unless they are fighting...If they are I first separate the parents by using egg crate so the fry can pass from parent to parent...But if one wants to do nothing but eat the fry then I remove.

eggs are fertilized during the 1 hour spawning period...Once this is done I normally do a 50% water change to make sure that the tank is clean and I cut back all feeding to once per day and only live food, to maintain water quality....Once wigglers I do one more 50% water change and once the fish become free swimming I lower the tank water and remove the filter for 24-48 hours until after the fry attach 100%. Also parents are not fed this day...Then slowly over the next few days I start to raise the water level back up and return the filter.

Dan

[CoKen]

hi all

just a little bit good news to share, there are about less than 1/4 of those eggs made it to become tiny fries swimming around and kind of attached to their mother's body (mostly on the top fin).

problem, i discover a considerable amount of tiny white worms in the tank, mostly close to the internal filter.

i dont understand why this happen, guess might be due to the water quality, but i did a 100% water change yesterday, i was planning to do another 100% water change tonight, i found the fries are just so small and swimming around i was concerned i might siphon them through into the hose. so, i might do the water change tomorrow.

but still dont know why there are white small worms exist in the tank, are they harmful? how can we get rid of them?

your comment are appreciated.


rgds
Ken

[kaceyo]

The little white worms are probably planaria which are harmless to your fish. They are caused by either over feeding, poor water quality or both. Start wiping all surfaces down frequently, don't leave uneaten food in the tank, do daily wc's and they should disapear. You don't want to do 100% wc's with recently attached fry in the tank. I've done up to 50% but wouldn't go any higher.
What kind of internal filter have you got? If it's not a simple sponge filter you may be risking having the fry sucked into it.
HTH,

Kacey

[CoKen]

hi all

what a tradgic! those swim free fries become less and less, initially i thought the mother eat them everyday, but until tonight, i just realise that was not the case, i was doing a 50% water change tonight and remove the egg cone, what a surprise to find out so many fry died in the egg cone where there is a small hole on the top of the cone, they swam in and never be able to get and stuck inside and dead. oh god, there were so many. i was so down.

there are only about 10 fries left, i look at the tank, it was not that clean, white worms still crawling and swimming, certainly not a good feeling. so, i decided to give these 10 fries, i move the mother back to the community tank, i did a thorought tank clean, wipe the surface glass, so that all those worms be also removed, clean the internal filter, yes, you are right, it also sucks in quite a few fries too, i turned it off on the 2nd day after the fries swim.

so, the tank now clean, i will move the pair back to this tank tomorrow, hoping that they will lay eggs again soon.

over this incident, i learnt a lot from the behaviour of breeding discuses.

thanks for you guys' advise. i will keep u up to date should my discuses have further development.


rgds
Ken

[tdr1919]

Ken,
you need to close all the holes, and something like foam over the filter inlet to prevent them from getting sucked into the filter.
Don't worry, they will keep breeding, and after awhile they get it right!
I have a pair that have spawned over 10 times, and they still will not let the free swimmers attach to them! poor babies!
good luck!

Tom

[CoKen]

hi guys

here came the 3rd batch of eggs.

today is the 5th day of the 3rd batch of the same pair of parents, dad removed. mon is looking after the wrigglers.

only 1/4 of those laid eggs hatched, rough estimated about 50 wriggles, shacking on the side of the egg cone, i m expecting them to swim free today, i have a protection net put the egg cone, i m still concerned that as soon as they swim out of the safety net, their mom will open her mouth.

i m feeding twice a day to this mom (with small dry food), 50% water change daily. i will drop to 30% water change daily when all wrigglers attached to their mom' body.

please let me know if there are any other things that i need to address. i hope this time i can make it after the first 2 time failed.

thanks for your opinions.


rgds
Ken

[hexed]

Ken,
Patience is the key! It took my discus many many times before they got it right. First they ate the eggs, then they stopped eating the eggs and ate the wigglers, then they ate the free swimmers until one day they got it right. Just leave them be and they will figure it out on thier own. This is the 3rd time and it can take up to 20 times before they get it right. I had thread called "breeding in a 55 gallon tank" which tells all about my discus' breeding venture LOL! Again PATIENCE is the key.

[Elite Aquaria]

Add a night light 24/7 and remove the Breeding cone as soon as the fry are free swimming. They were going to the darkest location which happened to be inside the cone. Same thing has happen to me.

Dan

[Kindredspirit]

Dan, why can't they go to the " darkest location inside the cone".....?
If one removes the breeding cone there is a less likely chance that mom will eat them?

[White Worm]

If the fry go in the little hole, they sometimes never come out. Removing the cone for me just keeps the parents from getting in the mood again also.

[CoKen]

hi Guys

finally finally finally, about 50 fry now free swim and attaching to their mother, and the mother doesnot eat them.

yes, i removed the egg cone last night, and i had left the light all night and off in the morning because there is sunlight enough in the room.

i m so happy and excited after 3 attemps and got it right. last night when i remove the cone and did a 50% water change, it is kind of difficult, because those wrigglers still attached to the cone, but most of them temp to swim into that little black hole on the top of egg cone, i know they wont get out once they got in unless i remove it, this was exactly what it happened last batch.

now i m thinking to get another tank, but hesitating, because i already got 2 tanks, one community and one breeding tank. too much time spend in maintaining them.

anyway, will sort it out.

but it is a very good feeling when watching those fry swimming around their mother's body.

rgds
Ken

[kaceyo]

Hey Ken,
Sounds like you've taken another big step, which is always a great feeling of accomplishment. How many do you think are attached? I'm not sure I understand one thing tho. Did you remove the spawning cone while there were still some wrigglers attached? If so, you want to waite for all the wrigglers to go free swimming before removing it. Even if some do go into the cone, they can live for well over 24hrs without feeding or attaching to the parents. Then just lift it out carefully and any "insiders" will join their spawn mates.
I've left the cone in the tank for a few days after they went freeswimming without any noticable cone related losses.
Good Luck, the best is yet to come!

Kacey

[Elite Aquaria]

Dan, why can't they go to the " darkest location inside the cone".....?
If one removes the breeding cone there is a less likely chance that mom will eat them?


Marie,

Instinct is for the fry to go to the darkest area...The hope is that this is the parents so they attach and begin to feed. By removing the cone or in my case sometimes under the hydro sponges the fry do not get confused and attach to the parents.

Plus as Mikscus mentioned this helps my parents stay out of the mood...:D :D :D

CoKen, Congradulations...make sure that you match the water temp and PH when doing WC...It is better to do more frequent and less quantity during the first week....I do not do more than 30% when fry are in first few days...This is so that I do not mess up and make a huge change in water parms.

Dan

[Kindredspirit]

Thanks Dan! o.k.a.y.....You too Mike:)

[CoKen]

thanks guys

the water parameter between the ageing barrel and the breeding tank is very much matching, they only differ by around 1 degree in temperature, the PH was also differed by less than 0.5, which was good enough i guess.

i can only do w/c once a day, i need to work, usually change the water at night time. may be thinking to do another one in the early morning before leaving to work.

it is ashame that the male cannot be with his family, i remove him before he eats all the un-hatched eggs. otherwise it it will perfect to see a pair of discus parenting their offsprings. isnt it cool?


rgds
Ken

[CoKen]

hi guys

i finally got the chance to take some photo for my fries.

first left photo is 2 days old fries.
middle photo is 3 days old fries.
right photo is the male (father), had been removed on the 2nd day after egg laid.

i checked the water condition tonight, i was a bit shock, the ammonia reading was 0.5. i did a 60% water change with the aged water. now the ammonia drop back to 0.

but i found one fry dead after the water change. not sure if its death was caused by the new water. the new water has the same water parameter with the tank, in fact, it is cleaner and fresher, at least, it has zero ammonia. i m abit of upset of its death.

what is the best amount of water to be changed for the newly hatched fries?

also, the mother is now carrying her offsprings, but she constantly shocking her body, like those pulse beat. is this normal???


rgds
Ken

[hexed]

Ken,
I do normal water changes because they are eating off the mother. When I fill the tank back up I fill it about a quarter inch higher each time. In other words if you lowered the water level to half a tank so the fry can find the mom then fill it about a quarter to half inch more at each water change. So by the time they are eating on thier own the tank should be competely full. Do you understand what I am saying? Yes the shaking is normal, mine did it a lot and it seems to get the fry to move to a different part of her body so they don't keep picking on the same spot :)