To Breed or not to Breed...

[Xirxes]

Hello all!
I have been toying around with setting up a discus breeding room for some time now, and was wondering about the logistics/financial feasibility of it. Is it fairly difficult to run a business as a breeder, lending Discus breeding to a labor of love or a sidelines activity? I have access to an investor who is interested in investing in a 500 sq ft facility if the return is there, but I'm wondering... is it even realistic to expect a return on investment in even the first two years?

Now i have not bred discus yet, but i am more than willing to make this a full time endeavor, and have the patience and general attention to detail required to run a large-ish system. I have a background in reefkeeping and have kept discus now for a few months, as well as clown loaches for a few years, which have roughly the same requirements(save heat/flow). I notice the lack of large scale breeders here in southern California (San Diego), which prompted me to do some research into setting up a little venture of my own. I work at a LFS and can easily make the connections i need to distribute to many local fish stores, probably all the way up to L.A. ground delivery wise, however as you can imagine, i have quite a few questions as to the logistics of this project.

Firstly, how are strain proprieties handled? For instance, it is hard for me to believe that i could take two different Wattley-bred discus, either same or different patterns, cross them, then call the offspring my own strain! Is there a limit to how many crosses, or a limit to how much "visual change" is required in order to call a "strain" your own?
For that matter, how does one even sell bred discus, without mention to the original "Wattley-strain" that was crossed, in order to avoid any commercial entanglements?

Secondly, generally, is it a good idea to start small then scale up? Or should a facility be in place first, in order to have the capacity to continue the breeding process ad infinity once it has begun? I have a number of other tanks, and would not prefer to begin on a small two tank system for initial parings and fry raising, but it could be done if needs be.

Thirdly, in your experience, as some of you are commercial breeders, what have you found as far as starting out, dealing with local/national orders and the demand issue. Is there a high enough demand in California/U.S. that a small/ish operation could carve out a niche for itself without seeing 4 years of no profit?

Finally, as to the size of my possible operation, does 500 sq feet sound like a lot of room?(i read this as a minimum size in one of the many books i have probed for background info on this little venture) Does it sound small? I would like to see this, as i mentioned before, as a full time endeavor for me shortly, and if the size i am talking about does not meet the needs of a high-return breeding facility, what size then would be recommended for a part-time, decent return setup on investment, in your collective experience.

I have found this site to be a wealth of knowledge already, and am interested to see what information i get on the topic at hand. Thanks for your time

[ezeke1]

You pose very interesting questions and I wish I had more input for you. I think it would be great if we had more U.S. discus breeders as it seems majority of the major breeders are in Asia and Europe. But if you have the passion and the drive to succeed, along with some luck, I think you can make it work.

FWIW, my friend's cousin started a fish business in Houston Tx and gradually expanded his chains into a multimillion dollar business. There were some things that played into his favor such as the hot climate made the fish hobby popular since everyone liked to do indoor activities.

[Darren's Discus]

I always like the old saying Walk before you Run,I think we have all toyed with the thought of becoming a commercial discus breeder at one time or another,But to me i'm in it for the fun i enjoy my discus i do not see them as a money making venture,but if they can help pay there way by breeding and selling a few here and there all well and good. If you in it for the money you will be sadly dissapointed to become a successful discus breeder it takes years,and you can't just grab this fish and that fish put them together and Wow you've created a new strain,It takes a lot of time,selective breeding and a few generations to produce a true strain.in all just enjoy them as a hobby,if you still want to venture into the business take a trip to asia and see how the commercial breeders do it there.



cheers

[dandestroy]

water, gas and electricity isn't cheap in north America.

This is the main reason why major breeder are in Malaysia pumping water form river and not needing any heating. There is a reason why all the major and biggest fish farm are all around these country and not built in some high rise downtown new york.

A big setup with huge amount of fish can be possible for a business... something like 10 000 gallon, but the work load and the payoff is not quite there for breeding. The risk of loosing it all is always present. I could see someone making a leaving out of it, but you wont be driving a car of the year doing so. With that capacity you are better importing than breeding, since Malaysians breeder will outcompete you and it would be faster and cheaper just to import.

But for myself the cool part would be to produce new strain which take a lot of time and patience, and breeding for this in a huge setup environement is probably not the way to go in North America.

I thing its a good side line if you have an other job and if discus is a hobby that you really like... and by side line I mean that if you cover all your fish related expense... well them its great... and the rest is bonus when it happen.

[Ed13]

For a discus breeder in North America( I'm not a breeder) this are my views


I have access to an investor who is interested in investing in a 500 sq ft facility if the return is there, but I'm wondering... is it even realistic to expect a return on investment in even the first two years?

The kind of return the investor may be looking for will never be there(unless the person is a hobbyist and is in it for fun) and it is a realistic possibility to never make a return on investment, breaking even is the best you can hope for!


Now i have not bred discus yet, but i am more than willing to make this a full time endeavor, and have the patience and general attention to detail required to run a large-ish system. I have a background in reefkeeping and have kept discus now for a few months, as well as clown loaches for a few years, which have roughly the same requirements(save heat/flow).
Don't be offended please, but, breed a pair before going full time on this;)

With this lack of experience, how is it that you can convince an investor?
The tricks of the trade as a breeder and as a business person also come with experience and sometimes this is what keeps some in business in NA, instead of the fish themeselves. Sorry not trying to be rude, just realistic.



I notice the lack of large scale breeders here in southern California (San Diego), which prompted me to do some research into setting up a little venture of my own. I work at a LFS and can easily make the connections i need to distribute to many local fish stores, probably all the way up to L.A. ground delivery wise, however as you can imagine, i have quite a few questions as to the logistics of this project.

Filling a void is nice, but there are many facilities importing to California, as wel as transhippers so there may not be a large a void as you may think.
If you work on a LFS, you can ask the wholeseller's delivery person and other employees if you visit the facilty. Also by now you should now many "secrets"Going full scale on local distribuition will also mean you'll need a vehicle and some employees and/helpers


Firstly, how are strain proprieties handled? For instance, it is hard for me to believe that i could take two different Wattley-bred discus, either same or different patterns, cross them, then call the offspring my own strain! Is there a limit to how many crosses, or a limit to how much "visual change" is required in order to call a "strain" your own?
For that matter, how does one even sell bred discus, without mention to the original "Wattley-strain" that was crossed, in order to avoid any commercial entanglements?


I won't pretend I know much about breeding, but you'll need to read up A LOT on the subject and get some first hand experience in manipulating strains first then you can think of developing your own.



Secondly, generally, is it a good idea to start small then scale up? Or should a facility be in place first, in order to have the capacity to continue the breeding process ad infinity once it has begun? I have a number of other tanks, and would not prefer to begin on a small two tank system for initial parings and fry raising, but it could be done if needs be.

Go as big as you can I say, in your case actually getting the experience of raising to adult, breeding, culling and raising the fry is what is impoprtant. You need to get this out of the way first


Thirdly, in your experience, as some of you are commercial breeders, what have you found as far as starting out, dealing with local/national orders and the demand issue. Is there a high enough demand in California/U.S. that a small/ish operation could carve out a niche for itself without seeing 4 years of no profit?

In California, with Kenny around no chance!!!lol OK its a big state so there may be market for others


You need to grasp a feel about the actual running and set up costs too, getting quality stock, raising and breeding many fish will take a large amout of cash in utilities(especially water), food, medications and other equipment before you can make money selling

Now if you also start breeding other fish to offer like Angels, guppys, african Cichlids, American cichlids etc you'll make more money

Importing is also much easier and more rewarding in terms of cash, Hans for example
It can be done though look at Jack(Discus KC) and Green Country discus, but I won't lie to you is very hard on your pockets and on you, hope I did not offend you

[Polar_Bear]

I always like the old saying Walk before you Run,I think we have all toyed with the thought of becoming a commercial discus breeder at one time or another,But to me i'm in it for the fun i enjoy my discus i do not see them as a money making venture,but if they can help pay there way by breeding and selling a few here and there all well and good. If you in it for the money you will be sadly dissapointed to become a successful discus breeder it takes years,and you can't just grab this fish and that fish put them together and Wow you've created a new strain,It takes a lot of time,selective breeding and a few generations to produce a true strain.in all just enjoy them as a hobby,if you still want to venture into the business take a trip to asia and see how the commercial breeders do it there.


cheers


Better, truer words have never been spoken.

[skanky]

How would this work for someone like me who lives in the tropics?Dont need much heating here but the market is somewhat variable.I also want to do this but my main market would be the US.Would 500sq ft work?Bearing in mind I have just started but this is where I want to get to eventually.Is there a market in the US for someone like myself who wants to breed and export to the US?

[Ed13]

How would this work for someone like me who lives in the tropics?Dont need much heating here but the market is somewhat variable.I also want to do this but my main market would be the US.Would 500sq ft work?Bearing in mind I have just started but this is where I want to get to eventually.Is there a market in the US for someone like myself who wants to breed and export to the US?

skanky, I think you need to put your location in your profile! sounds like you are not in the Continental US

[Xirxes]

The reasons why i am interested in doing this on a larger scale are many.

I have run out of room for any "hobby" tanks. Anything above and beyond what i currently have will need to be at a different location, where there is room available, which will probably equal renting space. So a monetary viewpoint on this venture is unfortunately a necessity.

I am sure that i mentioned that the time and effort to become a successful discus breeder are things that i am more than willing, and capable of putting forth. I want to see more discus in my area plain and simple, and would like to be part of bringing a new type of discus to the U.S. altogether, but because of space issues, a small (hobby) scale long term setup is just not an option, so i am asking those of you that do have larger setups ( 15+ breeding tanks) the logistics in going about starting this type of thing up for myself. There is always a difference between what i read in breeding books and actuality(especially due to the aging nature of these sources), and i am hoping that some personal experience can elucidate these differences.

There are a few factors in my favor here that i did not mention before. Firstly, I have a business and resellers license currently that will enable me to purchase all setup/maintenance materials at a fairly discounted price. Secondly, the investor is a friend of the family so i will not be "under the gun" for massive return in short order. Also i should have decent connections for distribution of fish in the area in short order following the production/import.

Having said this, i have not seen any actual recommendations/personal experience as to how a setup like this can currently operate in the U.S. A lot has been said about approaching as a hobby, and taking time. As mentioned above, my hobby is maxed, and the entrepreneurial end of things is what im interested in. The time investment is something that i am prepared for.

In reference to visiting Asia to see their operations, I have seen a few threads of visits there, and a few more helpful links would be appreciated, but this day and age, i do not believe that anything can be presented in person that would not be easily linked over the web. Also I am cautious as to how applicable the Asian setup is to my current situation, in that the price of materials/utilities in this country are far different, and the factory sized system would clearly not be an option in southern California. Please remember that i mentioned 500 sq. feet, not 2000+.

We do have a bit of a lackluster supply of decent discus (at least publicly) in the area, and this is something i would personally like to remedy. I also am not against heavy importing/breeding of other types of higher demand fish in the meantime, but i would like to eventually focus on breeding only discus.

I appreciate the concern and the words from the wise, however i would further appreciate personal experience as to the setup/maintenance of current breeding facilities so that i can get a real gauge as to what is in practice working/not working in the U.S..

Wonderful to get the response though! Been lurking around here for some time soaking up the knowledge. Thanks again for any input.