DEPRESSED :(

[Joetaff]

I am at a stage now where I am very depressed, I have researched Discus for about a week straight. At the beggining I was very excited to do a 75 gal planted discus tank, but after research It seems like it will be more trouble than it is worth. And I Just cant Bring myself to do a barebottom. Anyways I am about to just call it quits on Discus and maybe the tank altogether. If anyone has any last minute advice or experience or even encouragment I am in dire need.

[johnm]

going barebottom isnt a necessity. you could use a very thin layer of gravel or sand and a nice piece of driftwood as a centerpiece with some plastic plants or real plants in pots. this makes cleaning a snap. I too dont like the look of a barebottom tank, but that's just my opinion. Im sure others will differ

[Elite Aquaria]

Joe,

Sorry to hear that you are down...But your not out yet so hang in there. I have seen very nice planted discus tanks. BB tanks of course are much better if you are looking to grow your fish to max size potential. Most of us recommend BB tanks because we are in it from a breeding perspective. If my wife would let me I would have a fully planted display tank inside the house. Look this is a picture that Gabriel sent me. He runs the Jack Wattley hatchery these days.

Dan

[greyhoundfan]

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?t=50294

check this thread out by Dan at Gulfcoast Discus. This set up is the best of both workds, beautifully planted tank with a bare bottom. This achieveable with low tech lights and set up. No ferts No CO2 required.

This is how I'm going to set up my next 75 G. Use plants that that can attach to driftwood. I have already ordered some anubias barteri, anubias nana, and narrow leaf java fern. I'm just some Home Depot shop lights..

[brewmaster15]

John (joetaff),
I may take some flack for this one... but These are my honest feelings..

I honestly don't recommend starting with discus in a planted tank.. Theres much to learn about discus keeping before keeping them in a planted tank, any one that tells you otherwise is forgetting what it was like when they first had discus, IMO.

Yes it can be done and has been done... and if you have the skill with planted tanks and really put forth the effort with learning about discus you can do it..no doubt. If you chose this route...theres many here than can help.

I highly advise you start with bare bottom tank...learn about The needs of discus and then go and build your dream tank....consider it a long QT period where you get used to your new fish and they get used to you.:)

For every one person out there that says it can be done or succeeds, theres many more that are happier hobbyists without the substrate, and will tell you as much,. You need not give up the idea of a planted tank, but you do need to be patient in learning about this fish in my experience....in the long run you can have both...if you shoot for the short term..you'll have many frustrations.

Learn to crawl before you walk and walk before you run and you'll win the race.

I'm not trying to push you over the edge...but I am trying to help you here ...hope it doesn't seem otherwise.

-al

[KJoFan]

Or....if you want a planted discus tank just start with adult discus. Is no one suggesting that this time? ??? The only difference that I can tell between a regular planted tank and a planted tank with adult discus is slightly more frequent water changes. Someone will correct me if I'm wrong. :) But that's my suggestion if you really want both a planted tank and discus. I've also seen some nice technically bare bottom tanks with potted plants. Might be another option...

Good luck with your decision! :D

[brewmaster15]

Hi Karen,
Doing a planted tank with adult Discus is a good idea...no doubt there.....

But I still feel that starting to keep these discus under the conditions that you have the most control over is best... no substrate.

Learn the fish first....thats just my opinion of course.

I'd also expand my recommendation to include visiting some people that keep bare tanks and talking with them...then visit some Planted tanks owners and do some note taking.

hth,
al

.

[Elite Aquaria]

Joe,

I think Al has some great advise here. I just don't want you to give up hope on your ultimate goal...CRAW...WALK...THEN RUN.

Dan

[KJoFan]

Good point Al.

I have both discus and planted tanks (not mixed) and each takes a unique approach. I actually almost think it takes more studying and fine tuning to do a good planted tank, than it does a discus tank. I'm sure some of you will disagree there! :)

Joe, keep researching and reading and I'm sure you can find a happy medium for everything you want!

[phidelt85]

John (joetaff),
I may take some flack for this one... but These are my honest feelings..

I honestly don't recommend starting with discus in a planted tank.. Theres much to learn about discus keeping before keeping them in a planted tank, any one that tells you otherwise is forgetting what it was like when they first had discus, IMO.

Yes it can be done and has been done... and if you have the skill with planted tanks and really put forth the effort with learning about discus you can do it..no doubt. If you chose this route...theres many here than can help.

I highly advise you start with bare bottom tank...learn about The needs of discus and then go and build your dream tank....consider it a long QT period where you get used to your new fish and they get used to you.:)

For every one person out there that says it can be done or succeeds, theres many more that are happier hobbyists without the substrate, and will tell you as much,. You need not give up the idea of a planted tank, but you do need to be patient in learning about this fish in my experience....in the long run you can have both...if you shoot for the short term..you'll have many frustrations.

Learn to crawl before you walk and walk before you run and you'll win the race.

I'm not trying to push you over the edge...but I am trying to help you here ...hope it doesn't seem otherwise.

-al

Joe I'm gonna have to agree with Al. I've had a planted discus tank now for 2 months. Each part of it has it own qwirks. The needs of the plants vs. the needs of the discus. I'm going through my own headaches, fish losses, and various extra expenses trying to keep it looking good. Yes, it can be done but take it from someone who jumped in feet first (yes I did do plenty of reading and talked to Andrew and Angela, but I'm hard-headed and had to learn the hard way.) it takes alot of work that you don't realize unless you've kepted a planted tank or Discus tank.

If you don't want BB. Go with sand (1-1.5")that way it's easy to see the waste and clean up. Get plants that you can attach to driftwood. Pots can be hidden behind driftwood. Don't give up. Even with the trouble I'm going through, I still love my Discus and enjoy watching them interact with their surrounding.

HTH
Jose

[Don Trinko]

I went thru a similar experience. I have broken some of the "rules" but my discus are alive, active, and healthy.
Getting older discus will reduce the number of water changes because they eat less and there is little concern abought their growth.
While many people make enormous water changes daily some do not and still have healthy growing young discus. One breeder suggests a minimum of 30% per week. I was told by a well known breeder that if I buy 4" discus 20% per week would be OK. Please don't misunderstand. You do have to make water changes and Discus do require more care than other fish but.. With a reasonable water change schedule and close attention to water quality ( heat, filter, vacumning tank, ect) they are not fragile fish. Having a light biological load helps also. (big tank and/or fewer fish) Don T.

[Joetaff]

Thanks for the Advice everyone(from previous post), I'm glad that you aren't just giving me what I want to hear but instead actually giving me good honest advice.

I just Had An Idea though, What if For the time being I Set up my 75 gallon and planted it And I could Stock It with Angels and Rainbows, Then I Can take my old 29 Gallon empty it out and set up a BB Discus tank(I am thinking maybe 2-3 young Discus?) I can raise them in there for a couple months and In the process learn about them and their needs and when I feel I'm ready I can remove the Rainbows and Put in the Discus. Is that a good plan?

[mmorris]

I'll re-quote here something I wrote on another thread: A bb tank of discus is like a basket of puppies. Noone (well, few) ever looks at a basket of puppies and say `how ugly- the basket is brown wicker without ribbons and bells.' Enjoy now; decorate later. Martha

[White Worm]

As you read on and do more research, you will find that 1,2 or 3 just is not good ratio. Discus do much better in a group of 5-6 because of their pecking order behavior. With more discus, the aggression gets better dispursed. Dont go all in and dont skimp. Try 6 discus (juveniles) in a nice sized tank (that 75g would be perfect), get used to them and then increase upwards into your dream as they reach adulthood. It will be so much more rewarding that way.

[brewmaster15]

John,
I merged the two threads so it didn't get too confusing.

If you go the planted 75 and raise bare bottom 29 gal.. go with 4-5 juveniles for the reasons Mike said...with good water changes you can grow them out in a 30 gal tank for many months and then move them to the planted as young adults.

-al

[Don Trinko]

I have 4 in a 29 with gravel and fake plants. They have grown and they do chase each other occasionaly but there is no serious aggression. ( they typicaly stop before actual contact) Find a good breeder. Many of the more common varieties are $25 or less. The breeders can also give you good advice on WC and feeding. I have talked to several on the phone and they are very cooperative. Don T.

[tpl*co]

Is this going to be your first tank or have you had other tanks before? I wouldn't start off with discus as your first fish. Also, do you want a tank for the plants first or fish first (which are going to be the focus?).

Set up the tank and put in some hardy fish to get your feet wet and get the tank nice and stable. Also, it won't be so heartbreaking in case of mistakes and it'll get your feet wet (no pun intended) and your experience started. You'll learn about the stocking levels and what types of conditions and filtration you'll need for that tank before you put discus in it. It always seems that each tank needs *tweaking* before it is just right. Tweak your tank before you put fish that you'll have a emotional (and financial)connection to.

That's a good idea to have a grow out tank in addition to your show tank. I'd bump up the size a little though to a 45-55 since you'll be having them in there a little longer. :).

You can have a nice looking discus tank. Look low tech if you still want plants (no CO2). I've grown out discus in a low tech tank so it can be done (Sampson and Goliath were both grown out in a low teck lightly planted tank from around 2.5-3" and the tank was a 45 gallon bow).

Take care and don't give up your dream just yet!

Tina

[Joetaff]

Hey, this won't be my first tank, I have been keeping angels and Rainbow for little under two years now and I was just ready to get a little bit more of a challenge.

[Polar_Bear]

Of all the advice you have been given, I would have to say that Al's was the best. However, oddly no one seems to have mentioned that it is quite possible to have a BB tank and plants too. Simply grow them in pots until the discus are adults.

[tpl*co]

Of all the advice you have been given, I would have to say that Al's was the best. However, oddly no one seems to have mentioned that it is quite possible to have a BB tank and plants too. Simply grow them in pots until the discus are adults.

I agree, That's how I had my 45 gallon set up. To make the pots "invisible" I cut clear plastic food/drink containers, put in drainage holes, substrate and plants in that, they don't take as much room, are fish safe and disappear under water!

I put a very thin layer of substrate in front of that :)

Tina

[alxjss]

Hi Joe,
I am new to discus, but like u not to fish. I started getting interested when I went to a lfs and saw them in a tank. I searched and found this site. I read for 10-12wks, contacted a breeder from here, usually there is one in ur state or close by here on this site. I to couldn't imagine a tank w/o substrate. Well, open ur eyes and see what is there. Myself, i got six juvies. Posted there behaviors and every little thing i didn't think was right. Then i saw the thread w/the driftwood w/plants. Well, i tried that too. NOPE!!! I wound up taking that out because i was having scratching problems and what looked like to be fungus. Still monoriting that. When i saw my fish weren't the healthiest, i took the log out. It made a huge difference, because the log was dirty and full of food and algea. I didn't have the right things in the tank.
If u want beautiful fish, adults, listen to what people r telling u. I wasn't crazy about bb's but now, i find it real easy to keep clean. When they get about a yr old, i will start adding what i want, a little at a time. Patience is a virtue, think about that before u decide to quit;)

[Kindredspirit]

I wouldn't start off with discus as your first fish.

Why not? I disagree with this statement ~ I started out with discus first and I still have my very first ~ two years later:) Follow Al's advice and remember, knowledge is power ~ read here. Learn much and ask more ~

You will be fine. As long as you care about the fish ~ more than what you want ~

hth,

Marie ~ http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/29/29_5_2.gif

[Don Trinko]

I am certainly not a discus expert but mine are alive and growing.
I don't think it's difficult to keep discus but you do need to pay attention to their needs. You can't just walk by and dump food in every day. If you are the type of person who checks his fish every day for possible problems, watches them eat to make sure they are all eating, check the temperature, check the filters, check for amonia, nitrite, nitrate, ph, hardness occasionaly, and willing to make regular water changes you have an excelent chance of successfully keeping discus. Don T.

[White Worm]

Discus are not the impossible fish that everyone thinks they are. They could be if you dont know their specifics. Its like anything else, learn then do. Discus require some pretty simple things.... Clean water, cycled tank, lots of good food, warm temps and 5-6 buddies in a decent sized tank. I dont bother with checking stuff all the time unless I feel something is wrong by behavior signs. With a regular schedule, there should be no reason that your parameters go off unless you over-stock or add fish. Dont clean all your filters at once and once you know your fish and your water, its pretty easy. I know everything I need to know when I walk up to the tank at feeding time. BB tanks are much easier to clean and better used for the youth. Adults are a little more foregiving when it comes to a missed meal or a missed w/c.

[Kindredspirit]

Well said, Don and Mike! I wish I could explain things like that:(

[Oilers]

i just found something really cool in a local saltwater forum. If you need the necessity of a barebottom tank like a discus needs,and still want the look of gravel/sand why don't you do a kind of enclosure filled with sand or rocks or whatever your liking and glue/place it under your tank.

[Kindredspirit]

Ryan has something like that ~ under the tank ~ it looks like he has sand in his tank ~ I was trying to find that link the other day!!

[lauris]

Frankly, if a person is the type to get very depressed researching a tropical fish, but wants to try a tank nevertheless, they might be better off with a less challenging fish than discus. Throw a bunch of amazon swords and a dozen nice angel fry in your planted tank and sit back and enjoy them growing and pairing and spawning.

[yippy]

Howdy, You can still make a bare bottom tank look just as nice. Get some terracotta pots and put plants in them, put nice backing on tank and they look just as nice. I was like you - had gravel etc, and swore I would never go to bare bottom.But they look just as nice and fish are happier as no waste gets clogged in substrate, which makes water quality and cleaning easier. You can buy even fake plants to stick in the pots and I was always always complimented on their tank.

Hope this helps, bare bottom used to sound horrific to me!!!!! Now I wouldnt do it any other way.

Yippy

[Blackwater Aquaria]

Iknow where you are coming from but dont give up jus yet there are a few ways to have your cake and eat it to. #1 you can build your self a tank where you seprate the tank with a box out of plexy or glass. Give yourself at least 6inches in the back of the tank for your plants also 8 to 10 inches on both sides in frount 1 to 2 inches this will leave an area that is bare bottom in the middle and plants in back and on two sides. I got this idea from Al at breawmaster 15. I did try it out in my tanks with some tupperware containers and my fish did use them. The next time I break dow my tanks I will set them up with a Planted bare bottom tank. Ihope this gives you some insite to move onward and good luck. Mike Blackwater Aquaria

[swinters66]

Well don't give up just yet...I started with Discus almost a year ago..and I don't keep my tank bare bottom. I just realized once I had the gravel in, that I have to vaccuum it when I do water changes. And to be honest...its not all that time comsuming or a hassle. I just took one of my husbands python gravel tubes with some extra hose and I was ready to go. Keeping gravel clean isn't all that hard. It isn't written in stone that in order to keep discus you HAVE to have a bare bottom tank. My fish are growing, eating, they are healthy and look happy IMO...and this is with gravel in the tank. You just have to take a few extra steps in keeping the tank clean for the discus.

[Ed13]

Hey Joe I've got your solution right here, no pots;) just a glass enclousure silicone right in the back of the tank. If you are clever you can easily hide it since glass is transparent, maybe some rocks or wood with aunbias or ferns. The front could be left bare untill they grow or filled with sand and you won't ever have problems with two dif substrates mixing. No need to break the all-natural mold with pots. Just have your local glass shop cut you somw glass and silicone it to the tank, the thickness will depend of the height of the substrate level
See it here
http://showcase.aquatic-gardeners.org/2005.cgi?&Scale=258&op=showcase&category=0&vol=2&id=65

See, you can have your cake and eat it too!

FYI, barebottom vs sand bed is a big heated topic in the reefing comunity too. The hardcore experience keepers usually preffer barebottom or really shallow sand bed, go figure!