A Momentary Lapse of Reason

[Elcid]

Okay :) This is a pics thread, Really it is!!! All the pics in this thread are discus born in my tanks and raised by my care. The reason for my title will become obvious after you see the pics so once again I'm asking you to "Please refrain from posting on this thread until I've posted some pics!"

thanks,
Sandeep

[Elcid]

Okay! On with the pics:

Fish #1
http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q215/Elcid00/post27.jpg
Fish #2
http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q215/Elcid00/post28.jpg
Fish #1
http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q215/Elcid00/post29.jpg
Fish #2
http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q215/Elcid00/post30.jpg
Fish #3
http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q215/Elcid00/post31.jpg
Fish #1
http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q215/Elcid00/post32.jpg
Fish #4
http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q215/Elcid00/post33.jpg
Fish #4
http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q215/Elcid00/post34.jpg
Fish #5
http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q215/Elcid00/post35.jpg

[brewmaster15]

Hi Sandeep,
what do you feed your fish?

-al

[dpt8]

I don't get it :9I How old are the fish?? Pics look good.

[kaceyo]

?????????

[Elcid]

Hi Sandeep,
what do you feed your fish?

-al


Hi Al:

Thse fish are fed only bloodworms and kept in only RO water.

take care,
Sandeep

[Ed13]

?????????
!!!!!!!?????????

Are all the pics of 1or 2 fish?:confused:?

[Elcid]

I don't get it :9I How old are the fish?? Pics look good.

These are about 8-9 months old and 4"- 4 1/2"

take care,
Sandeep

[Elcid]

!!!!!!!?????????

Are all the pics of 1or 2 fish?:confused:?

Hi Ed:

These are pics of 5 fish :).....I just started posting pics! I thought I would post pics of the LSS types first, then the various throwback.....;)....and if you think these are the culls u should see my culls, I"ll be posting them too! I hope you don't mind me posting too many pics? :)

take care,
Sandeep

[Elcid]

?????????

Kaceyo ???

Please share with me ur true feelings about these fish! :)

take care,
Sandeep

[Ed13]

Hi Ed:

I hope you don't mind me posting too many pics? :)

take care,
Sandeep
Absolutely not, of course I won't mind! But I'm still a little confused about the tittle, what was the momentary lapse of reason? getting into discus in the first place?lol

[CliffsDiscus]

Reality check of what type of Discus are produce from the LSS type, pictures of unenchanced color LSS or SS, still too young for spots if ever. Only a small
percentage of 10 to 20 percent will be LSS from each batch.

Cliff

[Elcid]

Reality check of what type of Discus are produce from the LSS type, pictures of unenchanced color LSS or SS, still too young for spots if ever. Only a small
percentage of 10 to 20 percent will be LSS from each batch.

Cliff

Hi Cliff:

It's good to have you post on my thread! But don't give away the answer so soon??? :) Maybe I can achieve it with pics! :)

thanks,
Sandeep

[Ed13]

Reality check of what type of Discus are produce from the LSS type, pictures of unenchanced color LSS or SS, still too young for spots if ever. Only a small
percentage of 10 to 20 percent will be LSS from each batch.

Cliff
You're the man!!



Hi Cliff:

It's good to have you post on my thread! But don't give away the answer so soon??? :) Maybe I can achieve it with pics! :)

thanks,
Sandeep

HA, HA unless I was told or showed they were from X parents I never would have guessed anyway, I would have just assumed multiple batches!

[Elcid]

Absolutely not, of course I won't mind! But I'm still a little confused about the tittle, what was the momentary lapse of reason? getting into discus in the first place?lol

Hi Ed:

I know how it is, we want answers! we want them now! Okay since it will take some time to take good pics and post them maybe I can explain a few things and maybe we can turn it into a discussion thread rather than a pics thread.

I love spotted fish, I always have, my favorite being the wild RSG. When I was blessed with a spawn from my LSS/GLSSi pairing I wanted to know a few things. Like what is the genetics really? How many good spotted fish can I get out of the batch? Will spotting develop and when without feeding color enhancer? How would the growth be? What about the overall health of this strain? Now 8 or 9 months down the line some of the answers are becoming evident. These fish look a lot different from the LSS being imported yea? :) Where did I go wrong! ;)

HTH,
Sandeep

[CARY_GLdiscus]

lets just say we told to so long ago! : 0)

[Elcid]

lets just say we told to so long ago! : 0)

Hi Cary:

It's good to see you back in the forums! I miss ya! :)....Ya ya, it's not that I didn't believe but I wanted to know for myself :) Keep importing my friend, it ain't worth breeding spotteds! :)

take care,
Sandeep

[CARY_GLdiscus]

Lots of time + money! for a handful of good spotted discus! that take much longer to color up if not juiced! not to mention as they turn into adults the red color is just not the same!


Ya I know some lines would produce a higher % and better color but IMO theses lines would also be much weaker + smaller


hth
cary Gld!

[Elcid]

Lots of time + money! for a handful of good spotted discus! that take much longer to color up if not juiced! not to mention as they turn into adults the red color is just not the same!


Ya I know some lines would produce a higher % and better color but IMO theses lines would also be much weaker.


hth
cary Gld!


Hehe Cary:

There is one other disadvantage of breeding ur own - You can't blame anyone except yourself! :) Yikes!

take care,
Sandeep

[CARY_GLdiscus]

LOL very true

[brewmaster15]

Hi Sandeep,
Spotting pattern and genetics aside....I have no idea any of this with regards to these fish..I'd like to see their parents just for more info....but how spotted they should be and the coloration... can't speculate there..

but...
Hi Al:

Thse fish are fed only bloodworms and kept in only RO water.

take care,
Sandeep Fish can not make the red pigment... they can only use what they ingest....You may have wanted to see what they would like without being color enhanced... but by just feeding them blood worms you may have color deprived them of some pigments....don't know as I have never fed just blood worms...but I don't think it will contain a very good mix of pigments..

I'll further and speculate the iron pigment may be why the fish has a ruddy color...

Cary and I long ago talked of how some used Iron to color fish..remember bro?
hth,
al

[CARY_GLdiscus]

yes sir,
and some still do ; 0

[brewmaster15]

I guess I should clarify why I mentioned Iron...its part of what makes blood worms red....its an iron-porphyrin protein

hth,
al

[CARY_GLdiscus]

its also what makes the wild teffe red spotted green spotted!

[brewmaster15]

its also what makes the wild teffe red spotted green spotted! maybe Cary... but a wild ingests a wide range of pigments in its food....not just Iron pigments from lateritic soils.:)

-al

[Elcid]

but... Fish can not make the red pigment... they can only use what they ingest....You may have wanted to see what they would like without being color enhanced... but by just feeding them blood worms you may have color deprived them of some pigments....don't know as I have never fed just blood worms...but I don't think it will contain a very good mix of pigments..

I'll further and speculate the iron pigment may be why the fish has a ruddy color...

Cary and I long ago talked of how some used Iron to color fish..remember bro?
hth,
al

Hi Al:

My reasons for raising my fish on bloodworms alone is a separate topic. But, I believe that the marking on a fish is both genetic as well as food. It is clear from my batch that some fish will defintely develop spots while others will remain solid. Perhaps with color enhancers all of the fish will become spotted but I'm interested in those that develop spots without the enhancers. As to the red development it can happen with bloodworms alone. Checkout this throwback:

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q215/Elcid00/post36.jpg

take care,
Sandeep

[CARY_GLdiscus]

very true brew very true

[brewmaster15]

Sandeep...

I didn't say that you would not get red color from the bloodworms... but "color" is made from pigments and how a fish looks is based on what combination of pigments they ingest.. Your fish all have a very ruddy, brown background...it may be because of the types of pigments they eat or don't..

Feeding a balenced diet with multiple sources of pigments isnt the same as an enhanced color feeding with a high amount of a pigment, like nuturose or carophyll pink. .. I think its a very important distinction.. I don't know if it would make a difference here or not inspotting...but it would be far easier to see faint spots if they were not being masked by a red brown background..

Is there genetics involved...I'm sure there is..

I personally think the diet you fed has affected the colors that your fish are showing though.

why did you only feed blood worms?

-al

[CARY_GLdiscus]

yes yes yes I must say I agree with brew

[Elcid]

Hi Al:

I agree with you that if I fed these fish with a beef/shrimp mix enhanced with Naturose these fish would be more spotted and more colorful and also larger, fatter, rounder but I did not know that in the beginning because I had been successful in getting my purchased fish to an acceptable size/shape color feeding only bloodworms.

In my previous life as a discus hobbiest my best fish (those that were pigs) sometimes had a "surprise death" and I always attribute this to overeating beefheart mix since it only effected the dominant and most beautiful discus. While the beef/shrimp seems to accumulate in the gut of discus the bloodworms seem to be more readily digested and passed atleast so my theory goes.

HTH
Sandeep

[kaceyo]

Lets see a pic of the parents so we can see what they came from. Are these really the best? You need to try raising a batch from the same pair with astaxanthin and spirolina or at least a wider variety of foods so we can see how much dif it makes. I think it would be significant.

Kacey

[Elcid]

Here's Mom:

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q215/Elcid00/post23.jpg

and here's the link for dad:

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=10234&d=1134089054

HTH,
Sandeep

[Kindredspirit]

Hi Sandeep,
what do you feed your fish?

-al



I want to know why you asked this question first, Al ~ please.

When I read this post, I swear I could hear your brain turning!...."what is Al thinking"...I knew you were leading somewhere so I kept looking back at the pictures and .....I just didn't see it:(....

And I wanted to ~


Care to share?:p

[Green Country Discus]

Elcid, LOL, butt, JMO...ok start with a pair with less than 25 spots between them...OK...now...breed them looking for wonderfully spotted fry....and....limit their feed to blood worms....:confused:. Am I missing something here? I think I know why the title reads as it does.

[Kindredspirit]

Well I think I am missing it ALL!.....talk about confused! Do these fish look like crap or what?....was it an experiment?........Did it turn out the way you wanted Sandeep?......What should he have fed them to get all the spots he wanted?....or is that what you wanted, San?

The title?.......I am with Kacey on this one.....?????


I think I am having a ...........something....! I still want to pick Al's brain, though:)

[Elcid]

Hehe Marie:

I'm so sorry! Ur the last person I want to confuse!!! But so far I've only shown you pics of 5 fish! The best of the bunch :).....You should know these fish are agressively feeding on bloodworms. If I'm on the left side of the tank they are in front of my face, if I move to the right they move with me. They are always hungry, their poop always black, I posted some pics of fish with poop to start incase some ppl might wonder ;), did you see that?

For the experts:

No I don't want to feed my fish beefheart mix with naturose to bring out the spotting. I'm not unhappy with the outcome. In a way they have saved me from the madness ;)...Wait and see some more pics tonight! :) And please, don't be afraid to state ur mind! and I encourage other who have bought LSS from Mary Suby of DDD Discus and have this genetic line to post on this thread! Mary must have imported atleast 200 LSS, come out of the woodwork and post! :)

Oh and I still LOVE LSS DISCUS!!!

take care,
Sandeep

[kaceyo]

I've got to agree with Andrew. That female didn't have much to offer her offspring, so shouldn't expect great results.

Kacey

[Elcid]

I've got to agree with Andrew. That female didn't have much to offer her offspring, so shouldn't expect great results.

Kacey

Hi Kacey:

Thanks for your comment, u really made my day today :), I'm laughing ear to ear!

thanks again,
Sandeep

[Kindredspirit]

Hehe Marie:

I'm so sorry! Ur the last person I want to confuse!!! But so far I've only shown you pics of 5 fish! The best of the bunch :).....You should know these fish are agressively feeding on bloodworms. If I'm on the left side of the tank they are in front of my face, if I move to the right they move with me. They are always hungry, their poop always black, I posted some pics of fish with poop to start incase some ppl might wonder ;), did you see that?Sandeep


Sandeep ~ my fish aggressively feed on bloodworms...and:


"If I'm on the left side of the tank they are in front of my face, if I move to the right they move with me"

my fish do exactly this as well ~


"They are always hungry, their poop always black,"


umm...is this not the way it shld be, San?....:confused: I even got up to double check S* on my discus and it is very dark....black! I feed everything, bh, flake, bits, and fbw ~ a lot of each ~ nothing they won't eat ~


I am going to strangle you:p I know you are leading up to something in this game and .....I don't wanna play I just wanna know!:D






incase some ppl might wonder


Bet Al has it all figured out.:D

[Kindredspirit]

I've got to agree with Andrew. That female didn't have much to offer her offspring, so shouldn't expect great results.

Kacey


Okay...I .....am getting this ~ the mom was not all that so why should the babies be ...but did Sandeep expect great results?.........or did he expect what he got?


....and why is he laughing now? lol!

[Elcid]

Ugh! Just some more pics! :)

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q215/Elcid00/post37.jpg
http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q215/Elcid00/post38.jpg
http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q215/Elcid00/post39.jpg
http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q215/Elcid00/post40.jpg
http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q215/Elcid00/post41.jpg

[Desert Diamond Discus]

The bottom line imo is that regardless of color feeding with this or that you will only get out what god put in their genetics, color feeding wont make a spot appear where there was none to begin with. You can color feed all you want but the fish will only spot where theres a spot. I think they look fair id call them red based SS, brew calls it ruddy whatever that term is but i think its an awesome base. If you look at all the really good and i mean really good LSS they have a nice amber base all the way to the face. i dont like to see any Lss with pale bases, just not attractive imo. Your fish already have that red pigment inherently and thats apparent by that red base they have they just dont have the genetics to spot like mad, when i was working with SS i didnt need to have that full striated SS i just wanted a fish with lots of red base on it like an alenquer then i would work on the stripes- the stripes show up much better on a red base- Schmit Focke had some awesome red turqs and if you look to see why they looked so good its becouse of that deep red base that made the blue stand out, how many red turqs do you see that have great stripes but just dont wow you becouse they have no red base. Just my input- i think your fish are just genetic lackies but nice fish none the less.

O

[Elcid]

Elcid, LOL, butt, JMO...ok start with a pair with less than 25 spots between them...OK...now...breed them looking for wonderfully spotted fry....and....limit their feed to blood worms....:confused:. Am I missing something here? I think I know why the title reads as it does.

Hehe Andrew:

U don't miss much! :) But how do you count the spots on fish that have not been fed anything to spot up? :)

take care,
Sandeep

[Elcid]

Hi Guyz:

I think I've had much too much fun today, more pics tomorrow! My fish are on strike! :P

take care,
Sandeep

[brewmaster15]

Sandeep,
When you bought mom and dad, I somehow think you thought that they would turn out as other than they did.... I know how badly you have wanted Top grade fish...we've talked about it many times...

Are you trying to make a statement about the fish that were sent to Mary, which you and others bought?


-al

[Discus_KC]

it ain't worth breeding spotteds! :)

take care,
Sandeep

Why didn't somebody tell me that ?? To think all this time and this is all we have to show for it.

Sandeep,

You need to regroup and get different stock.

Jack

[Elcid]

Sandeep,
When you bought mom and dad, I somehow think you thought that they would turn out as other than they did.... I know how badly you have wanted Top grade fish...we've talked about it many times...

Are you trying to make a statement about the fish that were sent to Mary, which you and others bought?


-al

Hi Al:

Hehe, not at all actually. How spotted fish look has a lot to do with their diet perhaps more so than in their genetics. My call to others who have bought LSS from Mary is to find out if anyone was able to get their fish to this "top quality standard" in their care? For me, I just wanted to keep them alive and get them to breed and I succeded in that :).....There is no plan to cull these fish or sell them or replace them ;)...If I can get just one pair out of my babies to make the next generation, I would have succeded in my goal!

It's becoming easier to buy top quality fish now that Kenny's importing and shipping. If I had the need I could just paypal him $$$$ and I could get it! But now I just want to see what I can do with my fish, it's no longer mergers and acquisions, it's organic growth ;)

take care,
Sandeep

[Elcid]

Why didn't somebody tell me that ?? To think all this time and this is all we have to show for it.

Sandeep,

You need to regroup and get different stock.

Jack

Hi Jack:

Thanks so much for your offer :) But my fish are like my children - but thankyouverymuch! :)

take care,
Sandeep

[kaceyo]

Hey Sandeep,
I can understand your attachment to the fish after putting so much time into them. Then again I think you should ask yourself whats the point of breeding inferior fish? For me when I breed a particuler pair I'm looking for the next generation to produce some fish that are superior to their parents. Or that have qualities of each parent come together in their offspring. I think their should be some goal in mind to keep it interesting and worth while. Isn't that what you had in mind to begin with? Unfortunetly that line seems to be a dead end. Or at least that pair. Do yourself a favor and get some fish you can look forward to the next generation.JMO.

Kacey

[CARY_GLdiscus]

Come On Here,


I do not care if You take 2 super spotted discus that are super colored and feed them high amounts of color enhaneced foods bottom line is you still will produce all the fish in the pics that show no color or spots.

hth
Cary Gld!

[kaceyo]

Cary,
I don't think I understand what you mean. They would produce some fish like that, but those pictured here wouldn't be the best in the spawn. Whether or not the parents are color fed would, of course, have not effect on how their fry turn out.

Kacey

[CARY_GLdiscus]

Yes I know,
but bottom line here is the % of spotted discus produced from a pair is just not worth the time or money IME. I would personally like to know the % that jack produces from each spotted spawn. Even his pic is more of a puzzel pattern then spotted.

I guess what I want to say is if you are not useing color feedings on small spotted spawns to see what you have then its just a waste growing up all the rest that will never show spots or even good color.

hth
Cary Gld!

[Greg Richardson]

Cary.
but bottom line here is the % of spotted discus produced from a pair is just not worth the time or money IME.



That depends on ones agenda.

If one has to make a living off that type of fish no.

But if one appreciates what goes into producing a fine spotted fish it is more than worth it to a lot of people.

[Elcid]

Hey Sandeep,
I can understand your attachment to the fish after putting so much time into them. Then again I think you should ask yourself whats the point of breeding inferior fish? For me when I breed a particuler pair I'm looking for the next generation to produce some fish that are superior to their parents. Or that have qualities of each parent come together in their offspring. I think their should be some goal in mind to keep it interesting and worth while. Isn't that what you had in mind to begin with? Unfortunetly that line seems to be a dead end. Or at least that pair. Do yourself a favor and get some fish you can look forward to the next generation.JMO.

Kacey

HI Kacey:

I do not agree with you at all....It is your opinion that the fish I have are inferior because you do not see them to be fat and round and with 1000 spots on either side and cherry red eyes :) but a lot of that is not because of their genetics but because of their history. The same is also true for their spawn. I did this deliberately because I wanted to separate out those that under these extreme conditions would succeed because I believe that these fish will produce superior fry.....With the diet asian breeders are feeding their LSS they get fully spotted in 2" and I would bet that 50% of my babies would be fully spotted with that diet maybe more! But that's not what I'm looking for! I hate fish that have an unnatural color, a brown discus should look brown not red and a blue discus should look blue not purple....Since there is no plan to sell these fish I have no need to dress them up and instead I look at the fins and the head shape and the agressiveness of my fish and think I'm on the right path....

HTH,
Sandeep

[Elcid]

Come On Here,


I do not care if You take 2 super spotted discus that are super colored and feed them high amounts of color enhaneced foods bottom line is you still will produce all the fish in the pics that show no color or spots.

hth
Cary Gld!

Hehe Cary:

If I sent you all 40 fish, I bet you could get 30 of them to be fully spotted in 3 months ;).....

take care,
Sandeep

[Elcid]

Cary.



That depends on ones agenda.

If one has to make a living off that type of fish no.

But if one appreciates what goes into producing a fine spotted fish it is more than worth it to a lot of people.

No Cary is dead right here! The agenda is the same whether ur a hobbiest or a breeder or a reseller which is "TOP QUALITY" ;) For LSS this can be transalte to HUGE SIZE, ROUND BODY, TALL SMOOTH fins, EXCELLENT BASE COLOR and EVEN SPOTTING (the same on both sides)....

The problem is that the cost to produce these is very high, even higher if you are a hobbiest because you don't get much income selling fry....I do not know the statistics but from my own experience to raise 40 fish for 2 years and get only 2 "TOP QUALITY" fish is uneconomical, it's cheaper to pay $1500 or $2500 and buying one directly from a large breeder!

So what does it boil down to? Why do it? In life we find different ways to waste money to satiate our ego, men more than women I suppose?, and it is this ego trip that I am on ;)

HTH,
Sandeep

[CARY_GLdiscus]

Ok let Me put it this way!

If you are planning to breed spotted discus for a profit! Then plan on haveing at the least 10 pairs so that you will have enought for a 1 month supply.
Now I'am not talking about inbreed juck that breeds 70% true that grows 4"
I'am talking about 7" stock Plus very high in Quality That needs No Speical or Extra color feedings kinda like Jack's line IMO its a good line to work with!. All my man feeds that helps with the color in his fish are tetra bits!


Do I breed spotted Fish? Yes I did before and We are Doing so again! will I make Profit on them? more then likely NOT! WHY? Because Good Quality
Spotted discus lines do not breed true They only produce a small % not to mention the cost it takes for food water and utilities here in the usa to raise them up. Hell we Can now Even import Food fish in Cheaper then we can catch it are selfs or raise it!


Now that is My only fight here in this thread Nothing else. I never said It could not be done Infact I believe Every color varity has its good lines were super colored monsters are produced.

Ok hope that clears the Air for Me

Takecare
Cary + family

[kaceyo]

Sandeep,
I guess I still don't get what your trying to achieve. LSS's that can succeed on a limited diet? You need to balanced physical traits with pattern/color in any strain. If you don't one or the other will suffer.
What do you see as the next step for these guys?

Kacey

[Desert Diamond Discus]

Genetics Genetics Genetics. like every animal on this planet fish too are subject to their enviroment and what they consume but if it aint there to begin with you cant make it be there with color foods harmones etc. Thats why we are not all body builders- even if you took steroids to grow muscle you would but not like arnold: why cause we dont have his genetics. only a small percentage of people do and thats why fish are as fish are.

Cary, i can feel your pain all the way to Texas my Brother. i have to say im kinda loving it man.

Oscar

[Greg Richardson]

Sandeep. Carys quote was.............

but bottom line here is the % of spotted discus produced from a pair is just not worth the time or money IME.


I said.............


That depends on ones agenda.

If one has to make a living off that type of fish no.

But if one appreciates what goes into producing a fine spotted fish it is more than worth it to a lot of people.

You said................


No Cary is dead right here! The agenda is the same whether ur a hobbiest or a breeder or a reseller which is "TOP QUALITY" For LSS this can be transalte to HUGE SIZE, ROUND BODY, TALL SMOOTH fins, EXCELLENT BASE COLOR and EVEN SPOTTING (the same on both sides)....

I suggest you read it again.
Carys quote was about not being worth it to him which was because of the return on time = $$$.
In Carys situation that makes sense for him.

My answer was right. Has nothing at all to do with final product.
Has to do with why one is doing it in the first place.

WE ALL AGREE ON WHAT WE WANT AS A FINAL PRODUCT!

The rest of your post obviously points out you don't understand why people take the time to do it. All that people here have tried to tell you is you'd gain much better pleasure out of the hobby if you are going to raise spotteds by obtaining better stock to start with. It wasn't said to put you down but to hopefully ramp up your enjoyment of having spotteds.

[Green Country Discus]

Just a few points and MPO,
Spots are one of the harder strains to improve. When one concentrates on elusive spots, shape and size suffer. Inbreeding works to isolate spots but other factors are compromised. At some point a cross is in order and then the search for the "holly grail" spots starts again. What an elusive recessive thing we hunt...thus the price we must pay for a big, well shaped, spotted Discus. I feel that other strains offer a better shot of improvement with the average hobbiest. Breed two average to better Turks and the pic of the litter will out shine their parents. An average pair from good stock will throw some fry as good as their quality grand parents. Pic of any litter should be better than their parents unless one starts with high $ show fish and then the opposite will be in order.
With all that rambling...not like me LOL. this thread is not about feed but everyones own desires and goals for results, no matter how impaired or how they are viewed by others. Personally, I prefer to raise the best with the best care I can offer and breed the best to the best. Abandon what does not work but don't be afraid to try something different . Cull hard and often!

[Elcid]

Sandeep,
I guess I still don't get what your trying to achieve. LSS's that can succeed on a limited diet? You need to balanced physical traits with pattern/color in any strain. If you don't one or the other will suffer.
What do you see as the next step for these guys?

Kacey

Hi Kacey:

Don't think of it from a seller point of view. I'm sorry I'm not getting through with my thinking. This is not meant to be a fight thread, I'm sharing with you my opinion and philosophy!

Hmm, maybe I can explain it in a different way! Before when I was a discus hobbiest I was a "Wild Discus" person. I loved wilds especially the Wild RSGs. My friend and I would go to the wholesellers in NJ and hunt for fish with one or two or five spots on each side. These are the fish we wanted :). We hoped that with the proper diet we could get these fish to spot up to maybe 50 spots per side and we felt that these fish were to die for!!! :) We fed these hardly spotted RSGs a 50% Beefheart, 50% Shrimp, a teaspoon of astaxanthin and amazingly 2 or 3 out of 10 became amazingly spotted (50 spots per side) :).....

So here I am again looking for those hardly spotted fish out of my batch to see what I can do with them later! when they are fully grown....

HTH,
Sandeep

[Elcid]

Cary, i can feel your pain all the way to Texas my Brother. i have to say im kinda loving it man.

Oscar

Oh guyz:

Don't give Cary too much pain, I want him to stay on this forum and be a regular poster! :) Why do so many ppl love to see Cary in pain??? :p

take care,
Sandeep

[Elcid]

Sandeep. Carys quote was.............



I said.............



You said................

.

Greg:

Please accept my apology! I read your post too quickly and replied even quicker! You are right! My apologies again!

take care,
Sandeep

[Elcid]

Cull hard and often!

Hi Andrew:

You remind me of a video I saw when Bing Sato was staying with me on one of his NJ Aquarium Society presentation and had returned from a trip to asia....as we looked at the videos we were surprised how top breeders like Kitty were producing such beautiful fish from what we thought were deformed parents! A male without a dorsal fin, a female with part of it's body missing? We were like what's up with this? :) What if the future is in the culls? What if a fish that only grows to 3 1/2" turns out to be the mother of many beautiful and new looking discus?

I think part of the excitement with LSS spawn is the variety in the batch. Wow, I See some Red Pearls in there :), and what about that fish with the dark band? and what's that solid looking fish that hasn't grown past 2"??? Whenever I look at this batch my eyes are filled with excitement, it's only now and again I think, "Grow Faster", "Spot UP Already" Okay maybe every day! The sad part is that I have to cull. NO I'm not going to do it :) Atleast not yet, once I'm convinced that a fish won't go past 4" then I have to do the deed but for now I practice patience! :) I'm in no hurry! LOOK 2 years without purchasing any discus and then my friend Kenny sends me 4 nice fish, well worth the wait :)

take care,
Sandeep

[kaceyo]

Hey Sandeep,
No fight here at all on my part. I do think I understand, a little better, what you're doing. You've set up quite a challange for yourself. Good luck and I hope you'll keep us posted on your results. BTW, I try never to think of breeding from a sellers point of view. I did that recently and my spawn suffered for it.

Kacey

[Kenny's Discus]

It's not very often that you'll see everyone participated in a thread has his/her own point;), but I believe, IMO, this is one of them.:)

I do want to put in my two cents about the breeder/seller mentality(not directing at anyone guys)...I think one can actually breed to sell, but they have to accept the "probable" possibility that:

Ultimate success as a good discus breeder; maybe, maybe not.

Initial failure and financial loss; very likely.

If one accepts the above and has the time, labor, funds to try to breed for profit, it's their choice. But as many experienced breeders who have done/tried before, this could be one of the worst return-on-investment projects, as least in the US because of labor,utility and opportunity cost. JMO

Sandeep my friend, don't you sleep anymore these days?:p:D

Kenny

[Elcid]

Hey Sandeep,
No fight here at all on my part. I do think I understand, a little better, what you're doing. You've set up quite a challange for yourself. Good luck and I hope you'll keep us posted on your results. BTW, I try never to think of breeding from a sellers point of view. I did that recently and my spawn suffered for it.

Kacey

Hey Kacey:

It's been a while since I've seen any pics from you??? Come on? Let's see some???

I don't know if what I'm doing I consider it a challenge. It's more of an enjoyment. What do we do really? Buy some available fish, keep the water clean, give them some clean food and watch the miracle of life! That's a amazing thing about discus. If it were just size or color or shape I much prefer saltwater fish!

take care,
Sandeep

[Elcid]

It's not very often that you'll see everyone participated in a thread has his/her own point;), but I believe, IMO, this is one of them.:)

I do want to put in my two cents about the breeder/seller mentality(not directing at anyone guys)...I think one can actually breed to sell, but they have to accept the "probable" possibility that:

Ultimate success as a good discus breeder; maybe, maybe not.

Initial failure and financial loss; very likely.

If one accepts the above and has the time, labor, funds to try to breed for profit, it's their choice. But as many experienced breeders who have done/tried before, this could be one of the worst return-on-investment projects, as least in the US because of labor,utility and opportunity cost. JMO

Sandeep my friend, don't you sleep anymore these days?:p:D

Kenny

Hehe Kenny:

And ur doing a marvelous job at it too! :D:p but you know this rationalization is an oversimpflication especially when it comes to the discus business!!! To succeed as a breeder/seller you only need three things! MADNESS, INSANITY. GREED!!!

JMO,
Sandeep

[Discus_KC]

To succeed as a breeder/seller you only need three thing! MADNESS, INSANITY. GREED!!!

JMO,
Sandeep

To me it's MADNESS, INSANITY, and most importantly "MOTIVATION"

Jack

[brewmaster15]

To succeed as a breeder/seller you only need three thing! MADNESS, INSANITY. GREED!!!
I think theres breeders and sellers and they can be two very different animals.....some breed for the enjoyment of it and the thrill and recognition of creating something unique and beautiful..... these tend to be in this the long haul... others looking to score big bucks will eventually breed less, import more....and maybe stop breeding all together, as the goal is not the breeding...its the selling..


at least thats how I look at it.:)

-al

[Elcid]

Guyz:

Please don't look at these as NECESSARY NEGATIVES, they are NECESSARY POSITIVES, IMO if you don't have you won't make it!

HTH,
Sandeep

[Elcid]

To me it's MADNESS, INSANITY, and most importantly "MOTIVATION"

Jack

Hi Jack:

You need to work more on the "GREED" ;) We need a few successful USA Breeder/Sellers too ;), IT kills me when I see the prices of you LSS! If they were higher I would have bought!

take care,
Sandeep

[Elcid]

eventually breed less, import more....and maybe stop breeding all together, as the goal is not the breeding...its the selling..

-al

Hehe Al:

Maybe! but maybe it's a 4th quality that you develop after a while in the discus business, I think it's called INTELLIGENCE:D:D

take care,
Sandeep

[brewmaster15]

Sandeep,

Maybe! but maybe it's a 4th quality that you develop after a while in the discus business, I think it's called INTELLIGENCE I've been in this a while;) and I can tell you that if it was intelligence...none of us would waste our time breeding and keeping discus....Theres far more intelligent ways to spend your time and Money:D:D:D:D:D...I think if you were to add anything its "passion" to do something the best you can..

Its something I see in many of this forums sponsors.... and particularly in breeders like Cary, Andrew and Angela, Jack and all the Hobbyists posting in this thread.

-al

[Elcid]

Its something I see in many of this forums sponsors.... and particularly in breeders like Cary, Andrew and Angela, Jack and all the Hobbyists posting in this thread.

-al

No disrespect here Al my hats of too all of you but honesty unless you are telling me that the majority of ur bills are paid by the discus biz, I think you guyz fall under the catagory "hobbiest breeder seller" and as such ur motivations are different! Perhaps an altruistic persuit of the hobby! I like Liz's definition "Discus Enthusiast" ;)

take care,
Sandeep

[brewmaster15]

No disrespect taken Sandeep, I guess you are free to define a breeder anyway subjective way you like... but I think until you walked in their shoes, you should not dismiss them....

Being a discus breeder was never equated as making money from it.....To some its not volume or quantity...its quality.

I do think you are mistaken in your definition and ideal of Breeders....very few "breeders" derrive their sole income from discus...even overseas.. you could probably name the exceptions on your fingers and toes.

Theres just not that much money in discus, even if you are very good at it, IMO.

additionally, you'll notice that many large "discus breeders" have other fish they deal with..

Theres a great deal of romanticism about "discus breeders".,,,End of the day...most are just like what you have here, IMO.

al

[Elcid]

Hi Al:

Maybe I haven't walked in their shoes but can you name me any discus breeder in the US that ships out a decent quantity of discus overseas? I don't know, let's say 500 discus a month - fish that were born in his or her hatchery of course!

thanks,
Sandeep

[kaceyo]

Hey Sandeep,
put some pics up in the photo gallery for ya. Thanks for mentioning it or I would probably never have done it even tho it's been on my mind to post some.

Kacey

[phidelt85]

I just wanted to say that this has been a very passionate and well posted thread. Everyone here has valid points in their opinions and statements. It makes a relatively young person like me happy to be a part of a community with so many knowledgeable, experienced, passionate people.

Great thread, I get on everyday to check this thread out. To everyone involved, thanks.

[brewmaster15]

Hi Al:

Maybe I haven't walked in their shoes but can you name me any discus breeder in the US that ships out a decent quantity of discus overseas? I don't know, let's say 500 discus a month - fish that were born in his or her hatchery of course!

thanks,
Sandee

Sandeep, so now to be a breeder they not only have to derrive their sole income from Discus or most of it from breeding and sellling discus and they have to be exporters of Discus?

Interesting definition....one I disagree with 100% though. You'd be surprised how many "breeders" overseas actually breed what they sell.

-al

[Elcid]

Sandeep, so now to be a breeder they not only have to derrive their sole income from Discus or most of it from breeding and sellling discus and they have to be exporters of Discus?

Interesting definition....one I disagree with 100% though. You'd be surprised how many "breeders" overseas actually breed what they sell.

-al


I'm sorry you disagree with me.....I'm not trying to come up with any definitions, I'm just trying to find out if there are still any commercial/breeder seller of discus in the United States? Since you have been in this hobby for a while I just thought you might know? If I knew of one I wouldn't be asking the question - the only one I can think of was that guy "American Breeder" but I'm not sure how credible he is or his details....

thanks,
Sandeep

[brewmaster15]

I'm not trying to come up with any definitions, I'm just trying to find out if there are still any commercial/breeder seller of discus in the United States? Since you have been in this hobby for a while I just thought you might know? If I knew of one I wouldn't be asking the question - the only one I can think of was that guy "American Breeder" but I'm not sure how credible he is or his details....

Sandeep,
You have a very interesting way of not coming up with Definitions... :) Someone with as many definitions already has formulated all the answers to their questions.
Have a good day Sandeep.;)


-al

[Elcid]

Wait a Minuite! This is a pics thread :)

I don't know why but this fish reminds me of Wayne's SE juvenile :)
http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q215/Elcid00/post42.jpg
Yuk!
http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q215/Elcid00/post43.jpg
I Like this one!
http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q215/Elcid00/post44.jpg
Yuk!
http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q215/Elcid00/post45.jpg
Yuk!
http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q215/Elcid00/post46.jpg
This is my most favorite baby! More pics of her later!
http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q215/Elcid00/post47.jpg
The fact that this fish is showing spotting really worries me!
http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q215/Elcid00/post48.jpg
Sweet, I'm keeping her! :)
http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q215/Elcid00/post49.jpg
This is the runt of the litter, but he beat the heck of of those 4 new fish kenny sent me!
http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q215/Elcid00/post50.jpg
I do like this fish, I've always had a fancy for pearls!
http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q215/Elcid00/post51.jpg

[darylddiscusman]

:argue::argue::argue::argue:
Hi Ed:

I know how it is, we want answers! we want them now! Okay since it will take some time to take good pics and post them maybe I can explain a few things and maybe we can turn it into a discussion thread rather than a pics thread.

I love spotted fish, I always have, my favorite being the wild RSG. When I was blessed with a spawn from my LSS/GLSSi pairing I wanted to know a few things. Like what is the genetics really? How many good spotted fish can I get out of the batch? Will spotting develop and when without feeding color enhancer? How would the growth be? What about the overall health of this strain? Now 8 or 9 months down the line some of the answers are becoming evident. These fish look a lot different from the LSS being imported yea? :) Where did I go wrong! ;)

HTH,
Sandeep

[Kindredspirit]

Sandeep, have you found the answers to these questions? Could you, just for me....lol....answer each question? You said you ......




" wanted to know a few things."



"Like what is the genetics really?"


"How many good spotted fish can I get out of the batch?"


"Will spotting develop and when without feeding color enhancer?"



"What about the overall health of this strain?"


"Now 8 or 9 months down the line some of the answers are becoming evident."......So....you proved what?



"These fish look a lot different from the LSS being imported yea?" So what?.....is this a good thing or a bad thing? How do you know they started with what you did?....everyone who breeds LSS ~ in the end...all fish look the same? I have no idea actually ~ don't smack me now, Sandeep!



"Where did I go wrong!" You really do not think you went wrong do you?



Okay ~ I am done:)



Marie ~ http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/29/29_2_15.gif

[Ed13]

Genetics Genetics Genetics. like every animal on this planet fish too are subject to their enviroment and what they consume but if it aint there to begin with you cant make it be there with color foods harmones etc. Thats why we are not all body builders- even if you took steroids to grow muscle you would but not like arnold: why cause we dont have his genetics. only a small percentage of people do and thats why fish are as fish are.

Cary, i can feel your pain all the way to Texas my Brother. i have to say im kinda loving it man.

Oscar
Yes, steroids comprise between 5%-30% of a strength athlete's strength or the physique of a bodybuilder. They, however cannot overwrite the genetics involved no matter what, they can't put there what there is no potential of being there

Funny you compare the two. Do you know what it takes to make a bodybuilder? For those that don't a buybuilder basics are food, training and rest
Food is the most important up to 5-6 meals a day of high protein diets(60%-80%), how much beefheart do you feed?;) It is said that a bodybuilder grows in the kitchen not in the gym. Food is neede to repair the muscle tissue broken during training

rest, 8 hrs of sleep compared to the calm warm waters we keep hour discus in

training, they take care of the other two so they can do this one efficiently, in discus we take care of the other two so they can breed

In both a calorie surplus comsumption over calories burned over training are what makes them grow, in discus the lack of this surplus leads to stunned fish, And in both hormones are used to cheat!

In both cases we are merely manipulating a body to show its full potential.

Sorry Sandeep, I just found the similarities funny and amuzing. I also wanted to cogratulate you because you know what you wanted to know and achieve and went looking for it. I may not agree with some, like feeding only bloodworms, but still its nice you went through it
And I think I know what you mean about the GREED part, but maybe it wasn't the perfect word to describe it, but the desire it still needed

[Elcid]

Hi Marie:

I'm taking my dad out for his 75th b'day dinner/father's day dinner tonight so please wait another day for "my answers" to my questions :).....In the mean time you have seen pics of many of the fish, what do you think? Give it a try!

You know my dad is 5' 6" and I'm 6'0" so there was some genetic mixup but he gave me all these horrible allergies and I'm almost as anal as he is ;)....

By the way, the most important lesson I've learned is this:

"It's a hobby to be enjoyed" :)

HTH,
Sandeep

[Elcid]

Okay let's start with this one:

"Like what is the genetics really?"

The genetics is a mix of brown discus, green discus, turks and snakeskins. I did not get any pigeons even though the breeder told me pigeon genes are present in these fish. The predominant base color is copper/brown. The faint bar/barless quality seems to be present in the majority of the fish even the 9 bar fish. I have not seen this quality in straight turk spawn where the bars tend to be thick and dark especially when stressed. These fish consistantly have faint bar or exhibit barless qualities. The bar on the eye is present in 6/40 fish. 2 fish have 1/2 bar above the eye. 3/40 fish I would term as LSS - a very low percentage. If there were a "partial LSS" designation perhaps 10/40 fish could be included. The growth is horribly slow and spotting development without color enhancers almost non existant prior to 6 months of age. At 9 months only 1/40 shows significant spotting of the fins and partial spotting in the body. Finally, we should remember that this is a cross between GLSSi/LSS and so lower spotting should only be expected.

take care,
Sandeep

[Elcid]

Okay maybe I already answered this one:

"How many good spotted fish can I get out of the batch?"

But the real answer is none. "Good spotted fish" means to me a large fish with good fins, nice eyes and even spots. I don't think there will be any in this batch.

take care,
Sandeep

[Elcid]

Okay this question:

"Will spotting develop and when without feeding color enhancer?"

The answer is Yes and around 6 months of age.

take care,
Sandeep

[Elcid]

Okay this question:

"What about the overall health of this strain?"

I did not have any difficulty keeping these babies alive. They have only been PP'd twice and Prazi treatment 3 times. When I was travelling to India for 3 weeks a friend came in and fed the fish twice a week, when I came back only 3 fish needed to be culled because they looked skinny. The others looked normal and feeding agressively.

take care,
Sandeep

[Elcid]

"Now 8 or 9 months down the line some of the answers are becoming evident."......

Okay this is a difficult question. My goal was to get atleast a few show quality fish out of the batch.....This I failed in. While I think I will get some pairs eventually and be able to continue with this line the "method" to develop show quality fish needs to be revisited. Perhaps the best way is to feed the fish on only beefheart and keep them separate from the rest of the batch with larger water changes and much more frequent feedings. When you are trying to raise 40 fish in a single 150 gallon tank it is difficult to pay special attention to individuals and without this special attension it is difficult to produce excellent fish!

The number of LSS is much lower than I would expect. I thought I would get atleast a dozen good spotted fish even with the regeime that I have maintained. This is obviously not the case. I do not know if I had color fed them what the percentages would be but anyway that was never part of my goal so it is irrelevant. It is hard for me to speculate whether spotting will continue or the plateau has already been reached. I think perhaps this is the plateau and further spotting development will be marginal without color enhancers.

Now I feel that out of many batches can I produce a few select fish and that it is not true that every batch of LSS will have some select ones.

take care,
Sandeep

[Elcid]

"These fish look a lot different from the LSS being imported yea?"

I must say "HATS OFF" to the Asian breeders - they have mastered the art of producing LSS babies and their ability to produce well shaped healthy and spotted individuals by 2 or 3 inches and profiting from it remarkable! If I were a breeder I could NEVER compete with them and I think it would be foolish for me to try. This may not be the case for "others" as ppl like KC have obviously succeded. But for me it seems the barriers are considerable as well as the costs. SO the breeding is purely for personal satisfaction and general enjoyment of the hobby.

take care,
Sandeep