guppies with bent spine?

[wolfbane]

I have had several of these in my 10 gal planted tank. I've read that it could be fish TB, now I'm wondering if I should destroy this colony and plants, and start over. Read that I would have to sterilize the tank too, I guess throwing out the EcoComplete substrate? Does anyone have any info for me? Is there another disease that causes bent spine?

[phidelt85]

I've read that this could be from TB or too much inbreeding. ??

[Ed13]

I have had several of these in my 10 gal planted tank. I've read that it could be fish TB, now I'm wondering if I should destroy this colony and plants, and start over. Read that I would have to sterilize the tank too, I guess throwing out the EcoComplete substrate? Does anyone have any info for me? Is there another disease that causes bent spine?
Debbie any chance you can send it to a lab?

If it does turn out to be TB don't get your hands in the tank, especially if you have cuts in them. Euthanasia would be the recommended treatment and all equipment should be disifected properly. The Mycobacterium is succeptible to 70% or higher alcohol,(which you should rub on you on every part of you that comes in contact with this water and then washed with an antibacterila soap) chlorine(as much a s 10,000 ppm is needed to disinfect) and bleach(sodium hypochloride) are the best household disinfectants. Mycobacterium bovis(usually affecting bovines) is suppose to be dissifected with as much as 1 3/4 cups of bleach in a gallon of water for smooth non porous surfaces, contact should remain 5 minutes and then allowed to dry. There are other commercial mycobacterium disinfectants for mycobacterium

Do a search in the library here as it turns out Simply is one of the places that has the most usefull info on the net. I'll try to get some links here for further interest on the subject but unfortunately a lab test is necessary to confirm the desease. "inocent until proven guilty" kind of scenario.

I would say that if the guppy are severly inbred then the bent spines are common after a few generations. At one point I had thousands(not by choice;)) being bred everywere I had water, even in 5gal buckets I got a ton of guppy all from a couple of pairs of red tail guppy I gave to my father to control mosquitoes in a fountain with less than 5 gal of water. Even with being so inbred bent spines started to appear after 4 or more generations and where not that many, but they were severely bent like an S.
Like I said it could be genetics, but, unfortunately Guppy from farms in Asia and elsewhere are the most common carries of this bacteria along with other livebearers. I've also seen many shipments of Asian bred tetras where 1-2 were severely bent(like Z's or S's), but they are quikly disposed. I would not be surprised if all commonly available fancy guppy(from mass produced farms) have been exposed to this bacteria, whether they are carriers or not. The bacteria if I'm not mistaken has to be ingested by the fish via contaminated food or fecal matter from tankmates, via open wounds or by egg transmission from the females, I beleive it can't be transmitted via sperm from the males.

Sorry for the long post, its just this is the dirty little secret in the ornamental fish industry and its seldom know by hobbyists even if its zoonotic.

Some articles
http://www.nationalfishpharm.com/articles/mycobacteriosis.html
http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-07/sp/feature/index.php

I've got a really nice 28 page,various chapter paper(or article) in my favs but I just don't have a name or anyway of finding the author so I won't post it. Anyway its a lot more than many would like to know about mycobacterium sp

[Danlee]

Hey

I have bred guppies in the past and if its just the guppies with the bent spine I would say it is inbreeding.

I try to mix the gene pool but when I bred related guppies usually out of say 30, 3-4 ended up with bent spines.

HTH
Dan

[wolfbane]

Thanks all, Ed, thanks for the articles. Unfortunately, there is no money for lab analysis, just to be sure, I will put the colony down and disinfect all equipment. I added new stock to this tank, from Petsmart, a few months ago, I don't think they have reached that stage of inbreeding. My old stock is still there too, so they have crossed.

[Ed13]

Thanks all, Ed, thanks for the articles. Unfortunately, there is no money for lab analysis, just to be sure, I will put the colony down and disinfect all equipment. I added new stock to this tank, from Petsmart, a few months ago, I don't think they have reached that stage of inbreeding. My old stock is still there too, so they have crossed.
Innocent until proven guilty but, When in doubt.....
A lab test would be ideal to confirm or deny the prescence of the bacteria, maybe check if universities nearby can take care of it.

Unfortunately this is more common than many actually know or that farms will accept, especially because the infected can still produce sellable fry.

Getting fish from places that use central systems will increase the potential of this desease and guppy, angels, african cichlids, gouramis, all livebearers and especially Rainbows seem so be the most often affected. But even saltwater fish and wild collected specimens could be infected

BTW, I bet you liked the pic of the guys thumb:D

[Elite Aquaria]

Debbie,

I have been breeding IFGA show guppies for over 20 years. I have inbreed my strains for many...many generations without many issues with bent spines. However, one year when I first moved to my new house in Florida my fish room water temp reached around 86-88 degrees. I noticed that I had a large amount of guppy fry that were getting bent spins as they reached about 2-3 months of age. I checked with a good friend of mine Paul Gorski, a guppy breeder legend, and he confirmed that if guppies are raised in such high water temperatures and the water source is low in calcium hardness, which mine was at the time, that bent spines can occur. The problem for me was that the flesh of the fish were growing faster than their exoskeleton. I added an AC duct into my fish room and the next generations were fine.

I am not saying that this is your problem because I am not sure if you are seeing bent spins from fish that were once OK or if they are from fry you are raising. In addition, I have no experience with TB.

Good luck,
Dan

[Ed13]

Debbie,

I have been breeding IFGA show guppies for over 20 years. I have inbreed my strains for many...many generations without many issues with bent spines. However, one year when I first moved to my new house in Florida my fish room water temp reached around 86-88 degrees. I noticed that I had a large amount of guppy fry that were getting bent spins as they reached about 2-3 months of age. I checked with a good friend of mine Paul Gorski, a guppy breeder legend, and he confirmed that if guppies are raised in such high water temperatures and the water source is low in calcium hardness, which mine was at the time, that bent spines can occur. The problem for me was that the flesh of the fish were growing faster than their exoskeleton. I added an AC duct into my fish room and the next generations were fine.


Dan this is interesting, most of mine were under the sun(I still can't beleive the red color the males got under the sun) obviously most of the time throughout the whole year in most of the buckets the water was higher than 86F, some buckets were not and these got less bent spines now that I think about it. I had plenty of calcium in the water but all basically came from a pair and after a few hundred a second pair was introduced. Even with being so inbred bent spines were no where to be seen in the first generations.

[wolfbane]

So maybe yes, and maybe no, as far as the cause. With the possibility of a disease in the tank, or maybe just inbreeding, its a hard call. I will hold off long enough to contact Texas A and M to see if they would like to test the fish as a project.

[Elite Aquaria]

Ed13,

Take some of the bent spines and breed them and keep them in water no warmer than 80 and see what happens...Ideal water for growing gups are 80...and no higher.

Dan

[Ed13]

Ed13,

Take some of the bent spines and breed them and keep them in water no warmer than 80 and see what happens...Ideal water for growing gups are 80...and no higher.

Dan
Yeah, like I could have water under 80F without chillers or cooling systems. lol:)

Anyway I found hundreds dead one day and gave the rest away. It was a shame since I manage to get all red(a really dark red) guppies, no other color, and let me tell you the color of ther ones grown with sun light was impressive, but it got to a ridiculous point. Even the neighborhood children going fishing had no effect on the population.:confused:

Debbie, I'm affraid its like you say "maybe yes, and maybe no" untill a lab test, but again guppies are the most affected from these because of the incredibly large populations. I would not risk it too much!

[wolfbane]

My guppies live at a temp of 77F. They are nothing special to anyone, not show guppies or pure of strain, but I do enjoy them. It would be a shame to destroy them unnecessarily. I plan on trying to contact someone at TAM (Aggieland) tomorrow, or maybe the ag-extension could help out on a lab study. If not, then the guppies must go. I don't want to think what I would feel like if my discus somehow got affected. Or me!