Ich, planned treatment, and am I freaking out?

[Innivus]

Ok, so I'm a newbie and my new discus has come down with ich:(. After I brought it home it was on its own for a while; typical discus behavior, but then I get up Sunday and it's got the white spots. I've treated the disease before with malachite green/formalin chemical stuff bought at the store, plus putting salt in the water (tablespoon/10 gallon). Plus I've read all about it in this forum and many others. Water perameters are fine, I'm at 85 degrees F, and I'm doing a 25% daily change. The good news is it hasn't spread(MG/F formula kills that off) But I've been repeating the treatment for about 4 days and it hasn't gone away. In fact, it's slowly gotten worse.

So first question: do I need more patience? I've seen it take a few days to cure before, but I'd like to see some results. Can Ich be instantly 'cured' or does it need to run through its cycles, much like a common cold?

Second question: does this treatment sound like an acceptable one:
30 second to one minute salt bath, 5 tablespoons of salt/gallon. Immediately followed by a trip to another tank with MG/F to kill off any sporing ICH. If my discus starts to 'roll over' immediately remove to MG/F tank (btw, it doesn't take much imagination to imagine what 'rolling over' is, but why? I'm assuming if left unchecked it would be very dangerous, but how bad are those two seconds of rolling over to an already stresssed fish?).

Does this sound like a plan? Does anyone want to shar etheir super-inrecredibly-reliable ICH treatment that is easily replicable? Appreciate the thoughts before hand.

[alxjss]

Excuse the ignorance, but i thought Discus didn't get ick because of the temp. Is that right or wrong? Please let me know.

[White Worm]

Normally ich doesnt survive at higher temps. I have read that there have been reports somewhere of ich strains adapting but I have never heard of one to actually have been 100% diagnosed. You would be better off to buy a microscope, take a scrape and know for sure what it is. Maybe a good picture would also help.

[Innivus]

Well, if it isn't ich....what would it/could it be? Not trying to be difficult, but what other fish disease creates white salt-like crystal on the body and fins:confused:? White I'll try to get a picture up tonight when I'm home.

So perhaps I'll also turn up the heater for a bit and hope it does something. Thanks for the quick replies, too. Oh, and Mikscus, while I enjoy spending time and money on my fish, a microscope may be a bit beyond my fish allowance:).

[White Worm]

No problem. If it is ich, then formalin would be a good med to use. Something like quick cure but make sure you read the dosing carefully because it could affect other fish if you have others in your tank besides discus. Yes, I too thought it too much for an investment (microscope) but depending on how far you go in the hobby, it is worth it later to know for sure what you are dealing with so you can treat it accordingly. Some scopes out there arent too expensive. Raise temps, quick cure and lots of aeration. A pic would surely help out because at this point, its only guess work. Raise your water change %. It would also be nice to know your setup. Tank size, # of discus, etc. To give you proper guidance, people here will have to get as much info about your system as possible.

[Innivus]

haha, yeah, I've looked over the forum quite a bit here and I admire greatly the lengths some people will go to for their discus. Alas, I have neither the time nor the money to do so, but judging by the pics I've seen their efforts are well worth it:p.

I have a 55g setup, 4 discus, 10 cardinals, 5 rainbows, planted. Nothing scaleless, so I feel ok about the Quick fix MG/F chemical. I have everything separated to 'acclimate' the discus to me and their neighbors, plus make it easier to clean discu uneaten food. Running a Rena XP2 and 2 other hang-on filters filled with bio-balls, no carbon in anything.

And like I said, I'll see if I can get some pics up later on tonight when I'm home.

[Graham]

When using any F&MG med make sure that the mechanical section of the filters are clean and give the gravel a vacuum before each repeat.

Ick has four ''stages'' it goes through..one on the fish...where it can't be killed...2nd swimming down to the gravel...where it can be killed....3rd attached and in/on the gravel and plants etc...where it can't be killed....then the 4th stage when it erupts in hundreds of swamers and swims back up to the fish...here it can be killed. So we only have two shots in each protozoan life cycle to kill it. Upping the temps speeds up the life cycle and with highest enough temps it'll die

Trophonts > Tomonts > Tomites >Theronts

Forget the salt, at 1 tablespoon per 10 gallons it isn't doing a thing.

A salt bath is a pretty rough thing to do. It strips the fish of it's mucus layer leaving it no defenses. If you do it the fish has to go back into a clean tank, not the same tank. 5 tablespoons of salt per gallons is about 12 teaspoons per gallon. This will give about a 1.2% salinity....a little under half the strength of salt water

[Tropical Haven]

Well you have 15 fish in a 55 gal tank and that is quite a bit of bioload in that tank. I understand the filtration that you have hooked to it but I would do a 50% water change daily on it and would probably eliminate the problems you are having once the ich is cured if that is what it is.

[White Worm]

Uh, thats 19 on my calculator :inquisitive:
I would say that cards and rainbows are not having a huge impact on the system. Even 4 discus is low load for that tank in the first place, plus, with plenty of filtration, it shouldnt be an issue.

[alxjss]

Well, if it isn't ich....what would it/could it be? Not trying to be difficult, but what other fish disease creates white salt-like crystal on the body and fins:confused:? White I'll try to get a picture up tonight when I'm home.

So perhaps I'll also turn up the heater for a bit and hope it does something. Thanks for the quick replies, too. Oh, and Mikscus, while I enjoy spending time and money on my fish, a microscope may be a bit beyond my fish allowance:).

Ok, mine r the same. The "white salt" look is gone, but now its kinda like a fungus. Opaqe in color. But i am having a problem w/amm. for some reason. Don't no why tho. Do a 50-75% w/c everyday, and still ammonia @.25. Been like this for a while. Didn't treat tho. I have been keeping in touch w/Paul and he has been guiding me. Am monoriting to see what happens. They r fine. Eat like noones business but tend to twitch every now and then. Paul says to wait and see if something emerges. As long as they r acting normal. So far, no change.
Don't mean to take ur thread over, but i killed my qt tank with quick cure. I had 7 baby panda's, 6 bleeding hearts, and 5 zebra danios. It was my fault. I o.d them. Now i must clean that tank out and see if i can get more tetra's. I also want my panda's, but they r pricey:mad:

[White Worm]

depending on the med you use, it could have an affect on your filter bacteria (killing it) which then leads to another cycle.

[Innivus]

I wanted to thank everyone for the great advice, but sadly, when I came home on Thursday my big guy was gone:(. I've been keeping an extra close eye on the 3 remaining discus and making sure they are symptom-free, which they appear to be. Now the biggest problem I have is the dreaded 'number of discus fewer than 4 and greater than 1' thing. I'm beginning to see why 3 is a problematic number; the 2 more dominant types keep the 1 from eating. Well...guess this is a pretty good excuse to get more, eh?:p

Also, in reference to the salt bath taking away the mucus covering; I thought salt baths were designed to help the mucus by restoring electolytic functions (is that even a phrase? Hopefully you know what I mean).


But i am having a problem w/amm. for some reason. Don't no why tho. Do a 50-75% w/c everyday, and still ammonia @.25. Been like this for a while. :

I had this, also, but a long time ago. I can only tell you about my situation. The medication I used killed off a bunch of my biofilter. The second thing that happened to me is I didn't 'age' my water well enough and the chlorine in the water didn't help (I did something similar a long time ago when I washed out all of my filter components in tap water....again, this was a long time ago:o). I tried bio-spira, and the results were just ok. It still took a few days to balance out. I would just say keep an eye on your nitrite and nitrite levels, and try to keep them from spiking when the ammonia starts dropping.

I've also heard that Ammonia under a pH of 7.0 isn't toxic...I know enough about chemistry to know this could be true, but not necessarily that it is....anyone know enough to tell me if that is correct?

[Graham]

Sorry you lost your fish.............

As pH decreases NH3/ammonia picks up another hydrogen ion and becomes NH4. Ammonium is not toxic. So anywhere below about 7.2 any ammonia that given off convert to ammonium and becomes non-toxic.

Salt is an irritant....the greater the amount, the more of an irritant. We use it to increase the mucus/cuticle production of the fish....the fish is being irritated and produces more mucus/cuticle trying to slough off that irritant.

Once the salinity gets high enough the fish will slough off it's entire mucus layer and everything within it. At this point of the fish was put back in the same infested water that it came from it would have no 1st line defenses...ie: the cuticle.

This is besides what happening to it via osmosis and diffusion in the gills

We also use salt to off set the affects of nitrite and to help a fish with osmoregulation when they are sick



G