How much of you guys put stock in a Discus certificate?

[tpl*co]

That says who the breeder is? I don't put that much in it (but then I've never thought much or turned in my cat's pedigree registration either). It's just nice piece of paper to say who bred the fish?

Anybody else?

Tina

[Rod]

None for me either Tina, I imported some with certs a few years ago, they are still here somewhere. A discus is special to me if it is exceptional quality, regardless if it came witha cert or not. And i don't even think a cert is a kind of pedigree either, as many discus are given certs that have no chance of being a true breeding strain. I guess as proof of purchase, but then thats what a receipt is for.

Rod

[Kindredspirit]

Mine were all stolen:( I like them so I can look and see what they are, when I forget!

[AmberC]

I think its kinda cool.. but I wouldn't mind if I didn't have them either.

Plus its kinda fun when I'm talking to friends that dont know anything about fish and I tell them my fish all came with certificates... lol

[Graham]

Pure marketing

[Darren's Discus]

I agree with everyone's comments at the end of the day the certificate does not make the fish any better than it is,all i wan't is good quality fish.From an importing point of view it costs me $1us per fish for the certificates my thought behind getting the certificates is hopefully if someone puts there name on the certificate you will be assured of getting better quality fish.



cheers

[Harriett]

Don't care.
Harriett

[Kenny's Discus]

I agree with Graham that it is about marketing. But in some cases if you are the seller/breeder and if you're aware that there are imitations, or if you know that ppl are selling their fish as yours a cert might help make things right. Darren, I'm with you on the 1$ per cert cost LOL...

Kenny

[Graham]

It's a fish and unless you want to have DNA testing done on the parents and then the fry, who's to say what you've been sold and what the quality is. A fish, even with a certificate could turn out to be pure junk.

The certificate thing was tried with koi fry coming out of a GC from the All Japan Show Koi Show...99% turned out to be mutts:p...but they had thier certificate;)...and they were expensive too

It comes down to knowing the breeder/dealer and trusting them and thier reputation to sell you a decent fish at a certain price.

Kenny, If people are passing off junk fish as being yours then that's another story...that's fraud

G

[April]

well i hand them out..but alot of times i forget..im gonna end up with a stack of them. but i wont try handing htem out for one thats not one of them..lol.
they are nice....you can put it up i guess...for somme its impressive..most peopel have neverhad a fish with a certificate.

[Cosmo]

Years ago I bought a bunch of Watley Discus and they all came with certificates... thought it was kind of cool at the time but they (the certs)just got burried in a drawer... somewhere

Some of the fish grew to be stunning, some were somewhat less :p

At the end of the day it's a piece of paper, and like Graham said.. a marketing tool.

[Elcid]

I haven't read anyone's answer on this thread but here's my view! Get the Cert, it's a written doccument stating what you are buying with signature. If you ever need to take legal action you have a written record :) It's also a good idea to take ur paypal receipt and staple it to the cert for further backup ;)

take care,
Sandeep

[Dkarc@Aol.com]

Only time I have a slight concern regarding a certificate is when im buying a discus based on genetics. If im buying a discus based on its genetic background I want to know that who ever im buying it from, that fish came from the original breeder....and not someone else who has a similar looking fish. But then again...Wattley certificates mean nothing since none of them are "Wattley" fish :rolleyes:. So its up to personal opinion really. And yes, certificates have a big marketing ploy as well.

-Ryan

[Greg Richardson]

Another perspective of a cert .....................

Why not look at it from the sellers side?
Marketing? Correct in most cases.

What if there is a bit more to it than just marketing?

Could it be the satisfaction they have obtained in breeding certain lines of fish that they feel are quality fish?

By giving the Cert they are hoping the buyer has some knowledge they received fish from someone who that cert represents years of heartache along with success?

I don't know for sure. But I could see that side to it.

[showfish]

The original idea for a cert was to link a discus to the breeder.Say for example,a breeder came up with a beautiful line of LSS and before you know it,every tom,dick and harry claims their LSS that they are selling is from that breeder.So the breeder will want to prevent that from happening by issuing a cert.

The problem now is brokers,resellers or people that have nothing to do with breeding that discus are issuing their own cert.To elavate their credibility maybe?

[alpine]

What if there is a bit more to it than just marketing?

Could it be the satisfaction they have obtained in breeding certain lines of fish that they feel are quality fish?

By giving the Cert they are hoping the buyer has some knowledge they received fish from someone who that cert represents years of heartache along with success?

I will go along with this trend of thought...

roberto.

[Polar_Bear]

I like the idea of certificates. Mine also end up in a drawer or thrown away, but at least I have the fishes "pedigree" and know what they are and who bred them.

[Graham]

That is marketing............as to buying quality; unless you're buying an adult fish that was bred by a certain breeder and raised by that breeder you really have no idea whether you're getting a good show quailty fish or not.

I can buy a 6'' koi from the best breeder in Japan and get a Cert or I can buy a 3'' discus from the best breeder in Singapore but at a small size you really don't know what you're getting. Both can still turn out to be junk as an adult.

It's a marketing tool

[Greg Richardson]

Graham. Not sure who your post was to. But.........

If one labors hard for years developing a new strain and gives out a cert that is much more then marketing to most people.

If one works hard taking care of their fish, selling healthy fish from good stock they should be proud of it letting people know which I'm sure to some breeders that cert represents that.

Is marketing also behind the use of a cert?

Of course.

But for some I would have to believe it goes far beyond marketing.

[Graham]

Hi Greg My post wasn't directed at anyone.........

When you buy a pure bred dog, cat or a horse you get papers with it. Those papers give you the family tree, the pedigree of the animal, so you know that what you bought has quality behind it. You can see the othetr top animals that where used in the breeding. You know or hope that the animal will develop in a certain way due to that ancestory.


That ancestory really doesn't exist for a fish...just because a Discus or a koi was bred by Hans or Sakai...whoever, doesn't mean that it will develop into a nice fish. It's just a fish

If someone develops a new strain, unless they patented it, it will be knocked off/bred by others in short order. Everyone could start giving out papers............hey! I got Graham fish...it's junk but bred by Graham...does it really mean anything?;)

[April]

well...you know it came from a breeder..sold by that breeder to the distributor..not a fish who came from a clearing house or someone who goes around to different farms and collects to resell. im sure if they are giving out certificates..they have alot of pride in their fish..and in theory they are standing behind what they are selling with thier name on it. they show..and win..and im sure they wouldnt want to start sluffing fish off..or they wont be a breeder in demand for long.
ive had some people think it was pretty neat when i gave them certificates..and ive had some who said..nah..i dont need that. so just depends on the person. something for your wall...or drawer..i guess.

[Greg Richardson]

Graham.
does it really mean anything?

You'd have to ask the ones giving them out.
My points were trying to see it through their eyes the possibilities involved besides just marketing.

[Graham]

Yes they are saying it's my fish and I bred it and here's a peice of paper that says I did... what's it mean after that....it's hype/marketing

I can't make a comment about discus and their breeders but I have koi here that were bred by Sakai...probably the top breeder in Niigata, Japan ....they're basically pond mutts. I paid $300 to $500 each for them at 6'' or so...would a peice of paper make them any better....nope. It just still says that Sakai bred them..big deal...they are still just pond mutts.

When it comes to a fish a peice of paper really doesn't tell you much.

G

[pinkertd]

Marie - I'm like you. When I forget what strain they are, I can pull the certificates out!:D:D I bought my discus for the beauty of them, and the quality from Simply sponsors like Kenny!! The certificates don't really matter to the average hobbyist. Even AKC papers with purebred dogs....really only certifies that the dam and the sire and the lines they came from were all also registered with the AKC. Those AKC papers don't mean the puppy you bought will grown up to look like a champion. Most pups from puppy mills come with AKC papers and are so far away from the AKC breed standards it's ridiculous! I can see where the discus certificates would mean a whole lot more to a discus breeder than a hobbyist though.

[Polar_Bear]

I can buy a 6'' koi from the best breeder in Japan and get a Cert or I can buy a 3'' discus from the best breeder in Singapore but at a small size you really don't know what you're getting. Both can still turn out to be junk as an adult.

It's a marketing tool

Graham,
I suspect that you can tell whether or not you are buying a quality koi at a very young age, so it is with discus for the more experienced of us here. I know I can see a much smaller than 3" discus and can tell whether or not it will develope into a good looking discus, in fact the only thing I can't tell is what it's final color will be. But I think you are missing the point, with a certificate you do know its heritage, just like you would a cat or a dog. This will give you a good idea of what it's final color will be. Again I suspect that koi would be similar.

[Ed13]

Personally I don't care for the paper itself but rather the confidence I get I'm getting the real thing, whether it's a very special fish or not, and the fact that I at least get a fish that was upheld to some standards in regards to quality and health. I beleive the marketing aspect is a byproduct of this and a sideffect of unscroupulus sellers that "hype" lower quality fish or false fish to increase profit. The paper will not guarantee quality, hey even if the fish looks good it may not develop properly from the gene aspect, but it may give you an idea of the background.
It also serves to protect the exclusive distribuitors and sellers that sell the true "x" breeder's fish from frauds. Example, there is only one store with exclusive rights to sell "x" breeder's discus in your town, but a second store is claiming to have them at equal or lower price, if the second store can't provide a cert do you trust them to be telling the truth?. True story here!

BTW, you can get the most impressive Leopard discus you can find at an early age only to have the spots grow into each other and end up with an expensive turk. What good is the cert here?.....Well, to prove later on that the fish at least has leopard genes in them

[Graham]

There no way that a certificate can guarantee quality or even what was bred to achieve the fish that you're buying. The parents might have been completely different than what the breed is that you're buying...a genetic throw back from and earlier pairing.

The only thing that certificate tells you is that the fish was bred by John Doe breeder and whatever his reputation means, nothing more.

Larry while you and I may be able to recognize a decent fish when it's small, that's no guarantee that it's going to stay a decent fish regardless of who bred it.