Bloat? Parasite?

[scolley]

I've got one fish that has a big lump on both sides of its belly. It's right behind the gill plate, on the bottom of its body. We noticed this yesterday evening. None of my other fish are showing anything like this, nor are any other fish exhibiting any signs of unusual behavior.

All fish are eating well, and they are all "in my face" all the time - EXCEPT the one with the big belly. It holds off to the side, not facing me as the others do. Not hiding, but not with the pack and facing the food source (yours truly).

I held off on the regular FBW feeds today to see if a little missed food might help this pass. But later I tossed a single cube in a lunch time - just to see reactions. All were ravenous - a good sign - but the one with the swollen belly was by far the most aggressive. And this is probably my smallest fish. Normally the largest dominate the frozen cube battles.

As far as conditions that might have precipitated this, I did feed them HEAVILY on Tetra Color Bits yesterday at noon. A newbie mistake I'm sure. I wanted to see just how much they would eat before they were full. I did not reach that point, as they were clearly willing to consume - to my thinking - too much for one meal. And though I've NEVER seen this fish eat TCB (the one exception in the group) it was that night - after the big TCB feed - that we noticed this condition.

Another piece of information that may be pertinent. Last Thursday I got some shrimp, oto cats, and corys in the mail. I was away, so I had my son set up a quarantine tank. While he should not have used any discus equipment to set that up, I cannot rule out the possibility that he used a net or bucket, or something, on the new fauna and then put it in the discus tank. I can't imagine how that would happen. But I cannot absolutely rule it out either since I wasn't present.

My fish are in a heavily planted tank, with CO2 injection. I put in .075 tsp/gal MgSO4 (Epsom salts), which is half of the recommended 1-2 teaspoon per 10 gallons (half of 1.5 tsp/10g actually). That was 4 hours ago, with no visible results. Problem, is it's driving up my dKH, which in turn is pushing my CO2 ppm up to levels that are a bit risky. I'm willing to go another round of the same dosage - bringing it up to the recommended level - but only if this doesn't work by morning. I don't want to kill my inverts just because of this.

And because the tank is pretty well planted, catching the fish in a net for isolation would be very difficult at best.

Any thoughts on what this probably is? My guess is bloat, if for no other reason than I think it came on fast, and it appears to be very symmetrical - left side compared to right side. And any thoughts as to the least intrusive method of resolving it?

Thanks in advance.


PS - Though I bear this fish no ill will, and will help it if I can... this is my least favorite fish, the worst formed of the bunch. It's ironic that this is the one that I have to try to save.

PPS - Unless it is from the above mentioned possible contamination by my son (unlikely but not impossible), it's worth noting that I observe strict quarantine conditions on these fish. For a parasite to pop up after months of isolation, coupled with the fact that their conditions are only improving as I get my tank established (not declining), getting hit by a parasite now WOULD indeed be a surprise.

[scolley]

Well, was hoping for a bit of advice here... but I've got an update anyway.

It's been 14 hours with the Epsom salts at 1/2 the recommended dose. I guess I'm gonna have to boost that to the full dose. But since I've got pressurized CO2, that means I'm gonna have to reduce the CO2 injection rate - to keep the CO2 ppm to tolerable levels.

Then I'll give it the day. If it doesn't clear, I'm gonna have to drain the tank a good bit to change that water. So I'll catch the fish at low water I guess to put it in an isolation tank. But I hate doing that, and would love the hear that this is bloat, and that there's no need for it. Gonna be a PITA.

[tpl*co]

Steve,

Any improvement? Epsom salts usually works within hours. Does the fish still look bloated?

Tina

[scolley]

Thanks Tina! I'm up to 1.5 tsp/10 gallons - the middle of the recommended 1-2. I'm gonna give it until noon. That's 4 hours. If that doesn't work I'll boost it temporarily up to 2.5 tsp/10g.

At that point I'll be pretty much committed to draining the tank to change the water. So, if I have no improvement by then, and if I have no advice to the contrary, I'll scoop the fish out at low water.

But for the moment, no... no improvement.

One thing worth noting. I would not quite say the fish looks like it ate a marble. More like a small pellet or two. On both sides - right and left - it has one round spot that seems to protrude the most. Looks quite painful actually. But the darn fish is clearly anxious for more food. They all are, since they got almost no food yesterday, and none yet today.

[pinkertd]

Steve - I do 3 teaspoons to 10 gallons safely. I've had bloat in the same fish twice now. She find the algae wafers that I put in there for the plecos .... even in the dark! And when she does, she eats too much and bloats. She bloats so badly though that she can't stay upright at all or swim, let alone eat. But you can clearly see her bulging belly. Epsom has saved her twice now. She's back in the tank within 24 hours after I treat her.

[pcsb23]

Steve,

Sorry my friend, have been a tad busy last few days. Your CO2 is controlled on a probe if I remember so it will be trying to maintain a given ph, so I understand the issues. I now you don't want to but you may have to try and net this guy. You need to develop a sniper technique :) when I had my densley planted tank (and it was dense!!) and need to net a fish I would leave the net over the tank, then at the next feeding as they came up swoop for it. I've not perfected the technique but I reckon I get the target 9 out of 10 now!

It does sound like bloat, sometimes though it can form a more permanaent blockage which leads to an internal bacterial infection. Imo there is no point in treating with antibiotics ina plnted tank, so... if a day in a long term epsom bath hasn't persuaded it to move then I would begin to get concerned (sorry). Normally I would expect to see some effect on its swimming/balance ability as bloat often puts pressure on the swim bladder. If it doesn't move in another day or so then the prognosis gets worse, sorry.

[scolley]

Steve - I do 3 teaspoons to 10 gallons safely... She's back in the tank within 24 hours after I treat her.Thanks. I bumped it up to 3tsp/10g and had it there for about 7 hours. And I fed the fish and waited for everyone to poop. And everyone did but this fish. :(


It does sound like bloat, sometimes though it can form a more permanaent blockage which leads to an internal bacterial infection. Imo there is no point in treating with antibiotics ina plnted tank, so... if a day in a long term epsom bath hasn't persuaded it to move then I would begin to get concerned (sorry). Normally I would expect to see some effect on its swimming/balance ability as bloat often puts pressure on the swim bladder. If it doesn't move in another day or so then the prognosis gets worse, sorry.
Good advice... thanks Paul.

So what to do???

Unfortunately this has been complicated by the fact that I confirmed today that I've got to fly out tomorrow night. And all next week, and the week after that. So it became a simple equation. Either the fish had bloat that would clear itself, or I can not risk contaminating the tank and other fish. Unfortunately for this poor fish, I have no ability to care for a sick fish - I'll be away.

So, after about 24hrs with 1.5 tsp salts, then 7+ hrs at 3 tsp/10g, there was no movement. I'm leaving tomorrow, and time was limited, so I euthanized the fish. I'm not happy about it. But I'm not willing to risk the tank. And all indications were that this problem was not resolving itself.

I had some PM's with some very experienced people (thank you!) that helped make is somewhat clear that while this might be bloat, it had some characteristics that made it look like it well could be something else. The fish was had no problems floating upright. It's eating like a pig. And was not responding to Epsom Salts.

It's not conclusive. But since I'm leaving tomorrow, much to my regret, I have no time to nail it down.

So thank you for your help. But I have one less fish now. That's my first discus lost to disease/malady. Bummer. :( I feel bad for the fish.