post breeding bad skin and fins

[doc3toes]

Hey all. Parents spawned 4 times in a row. only have 2 fry. fry were feeding on parents, but couldnt get them on BBS. THey have spawned again on the glass, but their skin and fins are in pretty rough shape. Wadda think, do they need antibiotics? I was going to add salt but now there are fresh eggs. should i scrap them and wait for better skin condition? fins are growing back slowly, but the sides still look pretty rough. 75g (i know its too big to breed in), 30% daily WC w/ aquasafe, fluval 404, large air stone, feeding BW, BS, BH and flake. wadda think?

[Airex]

Looks like some chlorine burns to me. Anyway, if its me, i would rather nurse the fish back to good health before breeding them again.

[doc3toes]

i'll entertain that possibility. perhaps the water not sitting long enough. anyone else?

[tonymaccs]

It might just be the photo but the caudal fin doesn't look like its in grow back mode- still a fair bit of rotting tissue. I'd suggest you make fixing the parents a priority rather than the eggs. If you have to medicate, it's going to be hard to focus the medication in a 75g planted tank.
Hope they come good for you.

[doc3toes]

thats a ctually a background. its a BBT. what would you treat with if i was going to? they need to be moved into a 29 anyway. i think i'll definately pull the fry when they hatch and try them by hand (although i know i dont have the time)

[April]

hi this fish is from somone on a local forum..they have been breeding like crazy..carrying fry for about 4 times..now have a look . he figures its from them eating it alive..its in a massive tank...but planted. this tank..is monstrous..it even goes around a corner.
but the fins..are all raggedy...
what do you think? its still wanting to breed..they just laid again on the glass.
i said id confer with the gurus.

[brewmaster15]

April,
That fish needs some R and R... It does look like its been eaten by its fry...I have had it happen when on vacation before..

Separate the fish and it should heal pretty quick, I'd just watch close for secondary infections....that fishy is looking like it has no slime coat left.

Okay, now lets see what the gurus say?:D


-al

one other note... It looks like it has some bad Hole in the head , while in R and R... I'd treat it with metro.

[kaceyo]

Hey April,
I'm not Brew or Paul but I don't think you need the guru's to tell you that that fish is in desperate need of a vacation. If it were mine I'd watch it close for signs of bacterial infection due to the damage done and see if it starts healing on it's own with good care and lots of WC's. Acryflavine may help it heal if it's not doing it on it's own.

Kacey

[brewmaster15]

I merged the two threads on this topic.:)

-al

[kaceyo]

Al,
It's too early on a Sat morn to be doing confusing stuff like that.

[April]

good..thats settled..one thing id do ian..is ditch that fluval filter..and stick a hydro sponge or a sponge from your fluval into a aquaclear for now. the water goes in and out..in and out..and ive found that discus dont like those big canister filters..a single sponge in an aquaclear..you can keep things way cleaner. rinse your sponge once a week in aquarium water. no bioload.
take him out..put him in a little tank. treat. i can send you some metro on monday. i have it.
use alot higher dose than what the tube says like 400 or 500 mg.
brew..the guru..how long..for the metro for hith.

[brewmaster15]

brew..the guru..how long..for the metro for hith

thats really subjective April...I have read 50,000 different doses and durations recommended by others..

If it was me... I'd go 250-500mg 1x a day for 10 days...50% water changes before each dose.


hth,
al

[Polar_Bear]

I pretty much agree with everyone above. If it were my fish I would;
1. Remove it to a tank of it's own, a 20 gallon or larger would be preferable, but something as small as a 10 gallon will suffice.
2. Keep the temperature down, I would keep it less than 84F (actually I would keep it arond 82F)
3. Do not medicate. If you feel you "must" medicate give it table salt at 1 tablespoon per 10 gallons of water.
4. Water Changes, water changes need to be VERY often, and VERY massive. The more water is kept changed the better. The tank needs to be kept clean and the water needs to be kept perfect.
5. Filtration, you don't really need anything more than an airstone and a heater provided you follow number 4.

I would not be treating for HLLE or any other ailment at this time. My first concern would be to replace the missing slime coat and to regenerate the fin tissue. I agree with everyone else that the most important thing is to give this fish R&R time mainly.

[AADiscus]

Doc.....I would not try to breed this fish until it heals. You are taking a risk of the fry really stressing the fish out and then end up with more problems then you might have now. Raising 2 fry is not worth it anyway. If you want to breed then put a pair in a bb 29 gal tank that is set up for breeding. I would give that fish some R&R like already mentioned and see how it does for the next couple weeks.

[doc3toes]

Thanks for the help. Just for the record that tank isnt planted (thats my other 300g). I will move him to the 29 with a sponge filter (already set up) and do 50% daily changes and try salt for now. If i dont get much improvement in 4-5 days then i'll add a flagyl treatment. He looked perfect before the breeding, so im not convinced on hexamita. i think his slime production is really poor at this stage. I'll see what i can do with the fry. Link and step by step for hand feeding formula? (egg mixture)

[tonymaccs]

Why metro- did I miss something?

[brewmaster15]

Tony,
Flagellated parasites are common in most discus and a healthy discus's immune sysytem can usually keep this parasite in check....when a fish becomes very ill or stressed its immune system can be overwhelmed and the parasites get the upper hand...

Without seeing what this fish looked like before the fry feeding I can only guess....but to me...This fish is

1) obvious stressed:)
2) has large holes all over its face... a symptom often attributed to flagellated parasites
3)has what looks like scarred and eroded fins, where the fins soft tissue recedes between the hard bony rays...
This looks like a chronic condition
4) looks malnourished
Symptoms 2,3, and 4 can mean many things.. including flagellates or worms.....

best suggestions I can make from the other side of the monitor.:):)

hth,
al

[tonymaccs]

Sorry Al, I did miss something- your original reference to the holes in the head from the merged thread. I can't see that in the pic on my screen due to resolution.

Tony

[doc3toes]

Well i'll have to give the gurus their due on this one. I still dont feel that the erosions on the head are due to hex, the fry were really picking at that spot for some reason. that said, i did a fecal on the first sample in the fresh tank and vola' - hexamita. also found something else i couldnt id. maybe it came out of the water. it was some type of worm with bristles .. not sure on this one. smaller that a tapeworm and no scolex. Im afraid i'm not up on my fish parasites. i need a good reference, anybody know of one? ...so i started adding some salt this am and will add flagyl to the feeding this pm, if they dont eat it is going in the tank. i'll keep you posted with the followup fecal exams. FYI there was some discussion under the metronidazole thread (i opened my mouth that no one ever takes time to diagnose what they are treating for) on how do diagnose hex on a fecal. Today i took a FRESH fecal, used an eye dropper to place it on a microscope slide, macerated it with the cover slip, then placed the cover slip. No iodine or dye or float material. I could see them easily at 4x (dont look at the centre of the thickest feces, move to the edges where it is thinner). At 10x you could watch them motor around and id them. FYI you can never really see the cilia (flagella) on live organisms, they are moving too fast. I hope that help people to try it on their own. a kids microscope from radioshack shoud do the trick.

[doc3toes]

I guess we are 10 days since last post. I have been treating with Flagyl. Started with 500mg in 25g, then have been doing either 25%WC every 8 rhs and adding 250mg or 25% WC every 12 hours and adding 500mg (due to my work schedule). Also feeding twice daily with medicated food at 100mg/100g food. The male is looking much better, the female (i didnt post pics before) almost healed. I can definatelty see what someone was saying about HTH now that some of the 'skin' has regenerated, there are definately some pits ( i think these are filling in too). note different light in photos that at the start. I did a fecal today and the flagellate #s are 1/10 of what they were. there is still something else in the feces not sure what it is. maybe a copepod? it is rapidly motile has a long oval, flattened body and a single long pointed spike of a tail --ah who knows - i need a reference! I was thinking of stopping the flagyl and monitoring at this point. Thoughts? thanks.

[brewmaster15]

Hi Doc,
They are looking much better!:) I'd stop the meds now... and just maintain excellent water quality.

If some of the Holes do not close up on their own.... They can be helped along with a careful swabbing of hydrogen peroxide...avoid eyes and gills!

The fin erosions may have been from the flagellates... but when you are looking in the microscope keep an eye out for capillaria eggs. These are barrel shaped eggs, kind of yellowish in color.

hth,
al

[doc3toes]

Thanks. i stopped the metro today. just doing reg changes with a bit of salt. these 2 are clean for capillaria. Some of the other fish i have in my 300g had capillaria and were treated. I am due to check them again. I'll post again in a week or so.