i am amazed

[bgbdwlf2500]

First off this is my second post but ive had a few days to look around before my account was activated. Looks like a very nice site. That being said however, i decided my first fish tank was going to have discus in it, so its had 8 discus in it for about 6-7 months.

I have to say i am amazed at what i read about the unreal water changes that are being done. Changing water once or more a day? I change my water once a month (30% or less) in a 55 gallon (yes 8 large discus in a 55) and have no issues with my discus. They are very healthy, happy fish. I bought them at 2.5" or less and in the time ive had them they are all around 5" with some at 5"+. They were bought at Azalea Aquariums so they are Discus-Hans fish. I will post pictures of them on this site sometime soon.

Dont get me wrong, im not knocking anything anybody wants to do for their fish but IMO you people are crazy:)

Flame Suit On

[AmberC]

So I am just curious then... if you are having no issues, why do you have another thread that you are selling the fish in? :confused:

Amber

[bgbdwlf2500]

as i said in that thread i want different colors :) the best discus i can get here are at azalea aquariums and the colors are limited. would like to try some millenium yellow and others but i dont want to put the little guys in with the big ones. the ones ive got are all aggressive toward the others at times. If i felt like and had room for tank #7 id keep the ones ive got.

[AmberC]

Oh.. I guess I missed that :) I was just curious.
I bought 4 from azalea last year. I dont have those anymore though because last summer, my youngest daughter started having some health issues that took up all my time (because the dr's sucked and we didn't know what was going on - shes got tubes now and is fine :) ) so I had to find them new homes.

Amber

[Tropical Haven]

Call me crazy but I am going to be a complete skeptic on believing that you only do a 30% water change once a month on 8 large discus in a 55 gal tank without any problems. If you don't have problems I would seriously doubt you can call them healthy. I am not trying to stir anything up here but this is really hard for me to believe and I have been in this hobby for the last 20 years.

[bgbdwlf2500]

Call me crazy but I am going to be a complete skeptic on believing that you only do a 30% water change once a month on 8 large discus in a 55 gal tank without any problems. If you don't have problems I would seriously doubt you can call them healthy. I am not trying to stir anything up here but this is really hard for me to believe and I have been in this hobby for the last 20 years.


i wasnt trying to stir anything up either....i seriously do one water change a month. i will post pictures tonight if i think about it. i consider healthy fish fish that are happy to see you and come right up to the glass ready to eat, or just watch what is going on and not hide, they are the least skittish fish ive got. So i guess that leaves the question, what does everybody consider healthy?

one thing though that may clear this up is I dont feed beefheart which i know will dirty a tank up very quickly, i feed three cubes a night to my 7-8" flowerhorn. they fit in his mouth but a lot of fragments come through his gills and go all over the place.

[bgbdwlf2500]

Oh.. I guess I missed that :) I was just curious.
I bought 4 from azalea last year. I dont have those anymore though because last summer, my youngest daughter started having some health issues that took up all my time (because the dr's sucked and we didn't know what was going on - shes got tubes now and is fine :) ) so I had to find them new homes.

Amber

glad your daughter is doing good :) did you like the discus from azalea and where are you located?

[Apistomaster]

I know that discus that receive large frequent water changes grow faster, larger, breed more but just what is the right amount depends on many things. A constant flow through of fresh water is ideal and a 30% change once a month is too little. This is a matter of fact. It has been thoroughly established by aquaculture science.
As in most things a compromise is most practical and should be based on bioload, feed levels and tank size. Most people will see little difference between two 75% water changes twice a week and 80% every day with the exception of very crowded discus.
Of course one could be keeping Heckel Discus which don't seem to breed easily for anyone.
In some ways it depends on what you want to do with your time but I don't think many experienced discus breeders would be successful if they changed only 30% once a month. Maybe breeding discus is not something you care to do. The problem is that a group of discus of both sexes that does not breed are discus that are not happy with their water quality.
2 cents from four decades of experience in discus breeding.

[White Worm]

First off this is my second post but ive had a few days to look around before my account was activated. Looks like a very nice site. That being said however, i decided my first fish tank was going to have discus in it, so its had 8 discus in it for about 6-7 months.

I have to say i am amazed at what i read about the unreal water changes that are being done. Changing water once or more a day? I change my water once a month (30% or less) in a 55 gallon (yes 8 large discus in a 55) and have no issues with my discus. They are very healthy, happy fish. I bought them at 2.5" or less and in the time ive had them they are all around 5" with some at 5"+. They were bought at Azalea Aquariums so they are Discus-Hans fish. I will post pictures of them on this site sometime soon.

Dont get me wrong, im not knocking anything anybody wants to do for their fish but IMO you people are crazy:)

Flame Suit On

The good thing is that there are no exact rules. Maybe yours are happy and healthy and you may not have troubles. Maybe you are sitting on something bad in the future. No one really knows until it happens (one turns dark...one stops eating...etc...etc...etc) and then the questions come. I wonder what happened? Everything was fine and overnight..... well it is not usually overnight and it ends up most of the time being water quality that is the underlying start to bad things and disease. To some its not enough and to the researchers, you could definately do better by them. All I know..is when I do a large w/c, they release some of the old slime that floats up to the surface like little puffs of smoke and then they glow. Thats only after 2-3 days (80% every 2-3 days w/8 large discus in a 72g bow BB tank). You must have some good filtration also? Coming to see you is also a natural instinct considering you are the almighty FOOD GOD. They may not be as happy as you think. Good Luck.
Edit... yeah some may consider all discus keepers crazy at one time or another :)

[AmberC]

glad your daughter is doing good :) did you like the discus from azalea and where are you located?


Yes I did like them :) I had two bd's and two blue pb's. I'm down in Virgina Beach. A good ways to drive to Richmond!

Amber

[bgbdwlf2500]

I know that discus that receive large frequent water changes grow faster, larger, breed more but just what is the right amount depends on many things. A constant flow through of fresh water is ideal and a 30% change once a month is too little. This is a matter of fact. It has been thoroughly established by aquaculture science.
As in most things a compromise is most practical and should be based on bioload, feed levels and tank size. Most people will see little difference between two 75% water changes twice a week and 80% every day with the exception of very crowded discus.
Of course one could be keeping Heckel Discus which don't seem to breed easily for anyone.
In some ways it depends on what you want to do with your time but I don't think many experienced discus breeders would be successful if they changed only 30% once a month. Maybe breeding discus is not something you care to do. The problem is that a group of discus of both sexes that does not breed are discus that are not happy with their water quality.
2 cents from four decades of experience in discus breeding.

From a person that has no desire to breed how important would you say it is?


The good thing is that there are no exact rules. Maybe yours are happy and healthy and you may not have troubles. Maybe you are sitting on something bad in the future. No one really knows until it happens (one turns dark...one stops eating...etc...etc...etc) and then the questions come. I wonder what happened? Everything was fine and overnight..... well it is not usually overnight and it ends up most of the time being water quality that is the underlying start to bad things and disease. To some its not enough and to the researchers, you could definately do better by them. All I know..is when I do a large w/c, they release some of the old slime that floats up to the surface like little puffs of smoke and then they glow. Thats only after 2-3 days (80% every 2-3 days w/8 large discus in a 72g bow BB tank). You must have some good filtration also? Coming to see you is also a natural instinct considering you are the almighty FOOD GOD. They may not be as happy as you think. Good Luck.
Edit... yeah some may consider all discus keepers crazy at one time or another :)


Youre right they may not be as happy as i think they are. How do happy discus act? Yes i know they know i give them food but sick, unhappy fish dont eat.

Filtration is a rena filstar XP3 and thats it other than having a non BB tank.

I will post pictures tomorrow hopefully and everyone can tell me what they think. I will probably post here and in the pictures thread.

also, i said it once, i say it again, i dont claim to be an expert cuz im not and i will not say anybody else is wrong. Knock on wood ive not had any problems doing what ive been doing so im not going to change. chances are when youve done something for 40 years that works for you youll never stop even if there was a thought you could do it differently:)

[Ryan]

It really does boil down to your goals and your individual setup. When I was about 13 or 14, I got my first two discus. One was a cobalt and one was a turquoise. They were 4 - 4 1/2". I put them into a 55 gallon with gravel, decorations, and an undergravel filter. I never really changed water. I just replaced what had evaporated. Every few months I siphoned the gravel. The tank was not heated and all I fed was flake. They shared an aquarium with about 4 angelfish, various gouramis, lots of tetras, some livebearers, and female bettas.

The tank, looking back, was incredibly overstocked and under-filtered. The discus lived for over a year, but they slowly wasted away and eventually died. They always ate right up until I lost them, but the colors faded, they got skinny, and withered into nothing.

My current batch probably had water change overkill. They got nearly 100% w/c every day for a year. Now they're down to a 30 - 50% change every day or other day. The fish are very thick, show great colors and bright, clear eyes, and they are spawning.

After being on both extreme ends of the spectrum, I can say from experience that water quality and aquarium husbandry do play a huge role in the health and well-being of discus. I have never treated other cichlids the way I treat my discus. But I learned pretty quickly that if I was going to keep them happy and healthy for a long period of time, I was going to have to step up my level of care.

Don't take anything we've said the wrong way. You will ultimately have to find what works for you. Not everyone is out to raise giant show-quality fish, and not everyone is set on breeding and raising discus. Just keep in mind that water quality is a key factor in everything that happens to your fish, and the first signs of problems (sluggishness, dull color/eyes, finicky appetite, skittish behavior, flashing and rubbing on objects in the tank) can often be fixed just by providing your fish good, clean water.

And if you do have questions in the future, don't be surprised when people here suggest water changes, water changes, and more water changes. :D More often than not it's the first critical step in fixing things that are wrong with your fish.

Hope this sheds some light on it. :)

Ryan

[Greg Richardson]

Good summary Ryan. And yes, wc's do wonders especially when you see any sign of trouble.
WC's and patience for the wc's to work before meds.

[bgbdwlf2500]

It really does boil down to your goals and your individual setup. When I was about 13 or 14, I got my first two discus. One was a cobalt and one was a turquoise. They were 4 - 4 1/2". I put them into a 55 gallon with gravel, decorations, and an undergravel filter. I never really changed water. I just replaced what had evaporated. Every few months I siphoned the gravel. The tank was not heated and all I fed was flake. They shared an aquarium with about 4 angelfish, various gouramis, lots of tetras, some livebearers, and female bettas.

The tank, looking back, was incredibly overstocked and under-filtered. The discus lived for over a year, but they slowly wasted away and eventually died. They always ate right up until I lost them, but the colors faded, they got skinny, and withered into nothing.

My current batch probably had water change overkill. They got nearly 100% w/c every day for a year. Now they're down to a 30 - 50% change every day or other day. The fish are very thick, show great colors and bright, clear eyes, and they are spawning.

After being on both extreme ends of the spectrum, I can say from experience that water quality and aquarium husbandry do play a huge role in the health and well-being of discus. I have never treated other cichlids the way I treat my discus. But I learned pretty quickly that if I was going to keep them happy and healthy for a long period of time, I was going to have to step up my level of care.

Don't take anything we've said the wrong way. You will ultimately have to find what works for you. Not everyone is out to raise giant show-quality fish, and not everyone is set on breeding and raising discus. Just keep in mind that water quality is a key factor in everything that happens to your fish, and the first signs of problems (sluggishness, dull color/eyes, finicky appetite, skittish behavior, flashing and rubbing on objects in the tank) can often be fixed just by providing your fish good, clean water.

And if you do have questions in the future, don't be surprised when people here suggest water changes, water changes, and more water changes. :D More often than not it's the first critical step in fixing things that are wrong with your fish.

Hope this sheds some light on it. :)

Ryan

i know that water must be changed and i do on all tanks at least once a month. i also know the signs of something wrong as you said rubbing on objects etc. Its good to know that at signs of trouble a water change may be the best thing i can do and at signs of trouble it makes sense. daily water changes to me seems like you have a better chance of MAKING something wrong. Just my opinion though and its obviously not true. as far as i can tell my fish are as bright as they should be, eyes look good and as far as i can tell are not skinny (even for discus:)) I cant base anything on spawning because i dont have pairs.

[April]

well we are all waiting for the pics. a picture is worth a 1000 words.
once a month..well..maybe every two weeks would suit them even more. even regular tanks..every two weeks is better than once a month. you do have plants? its the high nitrates that get discus..maybe your nitrates are low enough they are fine. maybe you have a finely tuned tank thats running well.

[Condor]

i know that water must be changed and i do on all tanks at least once a month. i also know the signs of something wrong as you said rubbing on objects etc. Its good to know that at signs of trouble a water change may be the best thing i can do and at signs of trouble it makes sense. daily water changes to me seems like you have a better chance of MAKING something wrong. Just my opinion though and its obviously not true. as far as i can tell my fish are as bright as they should be, eyes look good and as far as i can tell are not skinny (even for discus:)) I cant base anything on spawning because i dont have pairs.
I predict that sooner or later you will be an advocate of bb tanks and frequent water changes. ;)

Adrian

[Apistomaster]

Adrian nailed it.
Even if one is not wanting to breed discus they will always be at their best if you keep a routine of frequent large water changes.
My point was that healthy discus will also breed providing both sexes are present.

Discus tend to decline very slowly when not kept in fresh clean water. By the time they show obvious problems it is often too late to reverse the ill effects of less than optimum care.

I see this all the time because not all shops that sell my fish deliver a high enough quality of care. If you don't get them within a few days after delivery they can be permanently harmed. Fortunately these are not the stores that get many of my fish. This is when they are only 2 to 2-1/2 inches. The difference between the little guys and larger ones is that large ones appear to absorb more abuse but ultimately even the large discus irreversibly decline when not provided with more TLC than many other tropical fish.

I think if you stay involved with discus keeping you will begin to notice the benefits of the types of water changing regimes we have put out there for your consideration. It might be helpful to know that world wide, regardless of language, the keepers of discus all come to the same conclusion that a lot of water changing is key to long term success with these fish.

There is also a fringe benefit to any of the fish you are also keeping. All fish are at their best when given the frequent large water changes.

[bgbdwlf2500]

whats the approximate lifespan of a discus?

how fast should they grow?

posted pictures in the pictures section, let me know what you think.


thanks

ted

[Blackwater Aquaria]

Its a funny thing the way people feel about changing water. The issue is not cut and dry water is all not the same. If you have well water your a step ahead no po4 to deal with so you can rule out less alge problems not compleatly but less. The way you feed your fish has a lot to do with it beefheart is a real problem once you spin it in your food pros. I have yet to see a beefheart mix that doesnt make a mess than again if you have BB tanks that makes a difference. I can go on and on but the bottom line is what works for you so be it. Good luck! Mike

[bgbdwlf2500]

Its a funny thing the way people feel about changing water. The issue is not cut and dry water is all not the same. If you have well water your a step ahead no po4 to deal with so you can rule out less alge problems not compleatly but less. The way you feed your fish has a lot to do with it beefheart is a real problem once you spin it in your food pros. I have yet to see a beefheart mix that doesnt make a mess than again if you have BB tanks that makes a difference. I can go on and on but the bottom line is what works for you so be it. Good luck! Mike

if you saw how many blackworms i feed my fish you people would call the police to come get my fish....:) but water when i check is always 0 ammonia and 0 nitrite

but city water is what i use, i try to use DI water when it convenient....algae is my only problem knock on wood

[Ryan]

if you saw how many blackworms i feed my fish you people would call the police to come get my fish....:) but water when i check is always 0 ammonia and 0 nitrite

but city water is what i use, i try to use DI water when it convenient....algae is my only problem knock on wood

The nitrite and ammonia aren't the concern, though. A well-established biofilter will take care of those. However, the end product that is produced by your biofilter is nitrate, and discus are sensitive to high nitrates. Plants absorb nitrates, but there aren't many other things that do. Hence the water changes -- we remove them ourselves.

[bgbdwlf2500]

The nitrite and ammonia aren't the concern, though. A well-established biofilter will take care of those. However, the end product that is produced by your biofilter is nitrate, and discus are sensitive to high nitrates. Plants absorb nitrates, but there aren't many other things that do. Hence the water changes -- we remove them ourselves.

will check that tomorrow :)

[amyandlars]

How planted are you? If your tank is heavily planted then you may want to keep your nitrate level at 10ppm. Anything over 20 is harmful to fish, and most Discus keepers try to keep it at 0, but then again most keepers are bb with some potted plants.

I guess you'll know that your Discus are healthy when you post 14 years later that your Discus are still in your tanks and you still never changed the water but once a month.

[scolley]

bgbdwlf2500 - I think you need to be congratulated for putting on your flame suit, and posting this question. You are making a good point, and seem to have good reason to think conventional wisdom might be mistaken. It's important that we continue to challenge those things we think we know. Because we ALL know, fishkeeping is filled with myth. And every once in a while, an new one is identified.

But I'm not sure your fish are as healthy/happy as you suspect...


I cant base anything on spawning because i dont have pairs.Maybe one of the more experienced discus keepers could speak up here. But I thought that if you had eight 5" to 5 1/2" discus, that if they were healthy and happy, you'd have at least one pair spawning. With my own 6 discus in a 75g, by the time they got 5", I had three pairs spawning.

Is the lack a spawning here an indicator?

[bgbdwlf2500]

How planted are you? If your tank is heavily planted then you may want to keep your nitrate level at 10ppm. Anything over 20 is harmful to fish, and most Discus keepers try to keep it at 0, but then again most keepers are bb with some potted plants.

I guess you'll know that your Discus are healthy when you post 14 years later that your Discus are still in your tanks and you still never changed the water but once a month.

No plants at all, just some fake and real driftwood and a few fake plants. Do they really live that long?


bgbdwlf2500 - I think you need to be congratulated for putting on your flame suit, and posting this question. You are making a good point, and seem to have good reason to think conventional wisdom might be mistaken. It's important that we continue to challenge those things we think we know. Because we ALL know, fishkeeping is filled with myth. And every once in a while, an new one is identified.

But I'm not sure your fish are as healthy/happy as you suspect...

Maybe one of the more experienced discus keepers could speak up here. But I thought that if you had eight 5" to 5 1/2" discus, that if they were healthy and happy, you'd have at least one pair spawning. With my own 6 discus in a 75g, by the time they got 5", I had three pairs spawning.

Is the lack a spawning here an indicator?

I dont deny that changing water everyday is a bad thing.

I bought them at 1.5" to 2" and in the 7 months ive had them thats how big theyve gotten....I think only 4 of them are right at 5" the other 4 are a little under that. I also have an oddball number of fish, 3 blue diamonds, 2 severums i believe they are, 2 marlboro reds and one im not sure there is a picture of them in the pictures section...from what ive read its get a lot of fish and some will pair and for all i know, they could be trying to pair, i dont know what they do when thats the case. They do go at each other with their mouths very frequently when the lights are on.


Check out the pictures, if they arent happy they have me fooled:)

[kaceyo]

Ted,
I've seen the pics of your fish and I must say they look good. Much better than I had expected as this thread was developing. With that said, I think it's a good idea to keep in mind that there are always exceptions to every rule. It doesn't make the rule any less valid, it just means that there will be some successes among those who go against the conventional tried and tru methods. The problem is that when others try to repeat what you have done here the chances of them being able to duplicate your results is almost nill.
I'm not suggesting you change whats working for you, just that others who are new to discus and the forum realize that your results are not the norm and not to be expected.
I would like to know what your nitrate level is tho. I have heard of one very large and successful breeder who's nitrate levels are said to be extremely high yet not a problem in his system.
Thanks,

Kacey

[bgbdwlf2500]

Ted,
I've seen the pics of your fish and I must say they look good. Much better than I had expected as this thread was developing. With that said, I think it's a good idea to keep in mind that there are always exceptions to every rule. It doesn't make the rule any less valid, it just means that there will be some successes among those who go against the conventional tried and tru methods. The problem is that when others try to repeat what you have done here the chances of them being able to duplicate your results is almost nill.
I'm not suggesting you change whats working for you, just that others who are new to discus and the forum realize that your results are not the norm and not to be expected.
I would like to know what your nitrate level is tho. I have heard of one very large and successful breeder who's nitrate levels are said to be extremely high yet not a problem in his system.
Thanks,

Kacey


Kacey,

Thanks for the compliment on the fish..

Honestly i have only very rarely (maybe not even at all) checked nitrate levels in any of my tanks but today is water check day, will let you know. As you can see from the pictures, daily or even a couple times a week is not at all convenient because of where the tank sits (on the mantle).

Ted

[bgbdwlf2500]

and the moment youve all been waiting for, Nitrate 40 PPM

[Apistomaster]

As you have seen, most of us experienced discus keepers and breeders try to keep nitrate closer to 10 ppm or less if possible.

Although live plants take up some nitrates they rarely do so enough to lower nitrates to low levels.. I still prefer to have at least a few potted Sword plants and/or Anubias fastened to bog wood to using plastic plants. They are helpful in improving water quality in ways hard to quantify. There are other metabolic wastes other than nitrates that accumulate and harm discus over time. Nitrates are just an easy to measure and a good general indication of water quality. Water changes are the most practical way to dilute them. Even 50%/week will make a noticeable improvement in the way your discus look and act.

As many of my fellow members of simplydiscus can attest, I am among the most iconoclastic members of the forum and there are many things I do or believe that contrast with the general consensus but water changing is not one of them. So I would be the last to discourage trying different techniques except for this current topic in which the members have presented advice that has stood the test of time.

[bgbdwlf2500]

As you have seen, most of us experienced discus keepers and breeders try to keep nitrate closer to 10 ppm or less if possible.

Although live plants take up some nitrates they rarely do so enough to lower nitrates to low levels.. I still prefer to have at least a few potted Sword plants and/or Anubias fastened to bog wood to using plastic plants. They are helpful in improving water quality in ways hard to quantify. There are other metabolic wastes other than nitrates that accumulate and harm discus over time. Nitrates are just an easy to measure and a good general indication of water quality. Water changes are the most practical way to dilute them. Even 50%/week will make a noticeable improvement in the way your discus look and act.

As many of my fellow members of simplydiscus can attest, I am among the most iconoclastic members of the forum and there are many things I do or believe that contrast with the general consensus but water changing is not one of them. So I would be the last to discourage trying different techniques except for this current topic in which the members have presented advice that has stood the test of time.

do these plants require anything but just being in water....the way the tank is (equipment wise) is the way its going to stay, no room to add anything else.

what is the approximate life span of a discus?

[Hans Kloss]

whats the approximate lifespan of a discus?

Up to 15 years.



how fast should they grow?


Depending on strain, individual, owner's accuracy and many more circumstances. I've never seen a school of 8 months old discus bigger than 6''
Hans

[bgbdwlf2500]

Up to 15 years.



Depending on strain, individual, owner's accuracy and many more circumstances. I've never seen a school of 8 months old discus bigger than 6''
Hans

these are at or slightly under 5". two are a little smaller, they got bullied early on but are catching up.