Hi all..I have some help..

[mikel]

I just recently started keeping discus fish in a new 40 gallon breeder tank. The tank has Bio-Spira and plants in terra cotta pots. I have 5 young discus, all around 1 inch long, so I am aware that they can get sick easily if the condition is not perfect. I usually try to siphon out food and fish waste when I see them, and I do a 25% water change every 3 days...The fish looks great...they get lots of blood worms. I have also followed the advice here about using a pre-filter on the intake pipe to my Emperor 400 filter, which is rated at 400 gallons per hour. My water comes out of the tap very soft, and a PH of 8. I use Amwil and Neutral Regulator by eachem to bring the PH to 7. The temp is kept at 85 F. Here is my question...

Thanks for reading in advance...

1) I noticed the water in my holding bin, which is a regular indoor plastic trash bin, but not a Rubber Maid, was very hazy this morning. I was going to do a small 3-6 gallon water change by siphoning some fish waste off the barebottom tank. I decided instead to test the water in the bin...it was quite acidic (between 6 and 6.5), which is strange. My water is soft and a PH of 8 coming out of the tap. But I use AmQuil and Neutral Regulator (bring to PH 7) everytime I replace water into the bin. Could the excessive use of Amquil or the Neutral Regulator cause the acidic value? I thought the Neutral Regulator would keep everything at PH 7. I admit that when I replace only one or two bucket of water for the past several days, estimate to be about 3 gallons each, I over use the amount of Amquil needed to dechlorinate and I also estimate using the Neutral Regulator....so I could conceivable build the chemicals levels up and not be aware of it. Could the chemicals in Neutral regulator or the Amquil actually cause acidic conditions in water?

2) Another possible explanation could be that there is a some sort of reaction between the water and the plastic trash bin. Has that happened to anyone?

3) Or maybe I dont have enought aeration...I use a fluval water pump that is rated for a 12 gallon tank (the bin is beep and 13 gallons)...so it's pretty weak but I could easily add another submerge filter or add an air stone. When I emptied the bin of the water, I could feel a slippery slime on the walls of the bin.

Please advise, as I am very worried that my stored water may not be safe for the discus in my new tank. Thank you all in advance. Mike

[Tropical Haven]

That is the bad thing about playing around with PH by chemicals is it has the tendency of dropping rapidly or elevating rapidly and I think that is what is happening to you. It doesn't have anything to do with your storage bin. Why play around with your PH? These are juvinelle fish and they will grow well in any PH that you have. I raise my discus in PH of 8.6 and they do very well for me. I wouldn't worry about your PH unless you are trying to breed a pair of discus. Just fill your holding bin with your tap water and treat for chlorine and chloramines and you will not have to worry about major PH fluctuations. Remember that discus do well with stable water conditions, with you wanting to play with the PH chemically will end up stressing them out and then disease problems will start and I don't think that you will want that to happen. By the way, welcome to the site!!! :D

[mikel]

Hi and Thanks for replying....so you are saying that if my water comes out of the tap at 8, and if I use conditioners to neutralize the Chlorine, Chlorimin and Ammonia, then that's all I should do? Since my water is supposed to be relatively soft, then I guess the water will naturally fall to its comfortable place? Or stay at 8? I think Discus prefer to have a more acidic environment. I understand that these are domestic varieties, but are you sure that even these man-made varieties can withstand such a difference in PH? I am really confused. Perhaps I am making it too difficult, and I should just let it all go, and focus only on conditioning the water for toxins and preventing nitrate buildup...What do you all think?

[Tropical Haven]

You are making it harder than you need to. Just use your standard tap water into your holding tank and treat it for chlorine and chloramines and you are set. Just make sure when doing water changes out of it that you try to match the water temp that is in your tank as close as possible. Your fish will do fine in a PH of 8, just test your water after treating for Chlorine and Chloramines and see if your PH stays in that range. I know after treating my water my PH stays exactly the same as my tap water.

[AADiscus]

I agree.....don't mess with your PH. You are just causing yourself grief. Put some water in a cup and let it sit over night. You will probably see that the ph falls just a little bit. The biggest thing is the stability with the ph. PH swings are going to stress your fish out (let alone you...lol) You might think of doing more wc's. 1" discus take alot of care. Feedings of at least 5 a day.

[Apistomaster]

Hi Mike,
Perhaps you could provide the actual test results of your tap water?
If it is very soft and has a pH of of 8.0 it is probably only temporarily that high. It should fall after aerating your storage container and certainly in the aquarium environment so I also agree that you not add anything except you water conditioner to remove the chlorine and chloramine.

The cloudiness in the container may be because it is a new container. It might be a good idea to fill for 24 hours, empty and repeat again then refill and begin using it as planned.
I would run some kind of filter like an internal canister filter to both help keep it clean and circulation.

I recommend that you feed the one inch discus live baby brine shrimp once or twice a day plus other foods. Total five feedings/day per Angela's suggestion. They will really benefit from the live baby brine shrimp until they are two inches even if they only get it once a day as they grow closer to two inches.

Your choice to use a 40 gal. breeder style is a good one. It has far more surface area than the 55 gal many people recommend and despite the difference in gallons it will hold as many discus.

[mugginns]

I'm also going to raise some juves in a 40gallon breeder, and I'm wondering how one manages to get 5 feedings in a day when you're at work?

Also, if you're gone for a weekend is it the end of the world? Do you use an auto-feeder?

[mikel]

My water readings out of the tap is as follows...a very low PPM for Alkalinity, so it is very soft (GH is 50, KH is 80 ppm), and a ph of 8. I do believe that the high PH is only temporary, and it should drop over time. I just fear that it will change the Ph in my tank if I simply dump the water in after getting rid of the toxins. My tank is currently at a comfortable 7.0 PH but I dont know if this is so because I used the Neutral Regulator, or if it just normally goes there. I doubt it, as I think the normal movement of my water should be toward acidity, as per my LFS owner. So do I not even worry about the difference in PH between the tap and my tank, and simply condition the water for the toxics and let it age for at least 24 hours and then make sure the temp is the same (I do have a small heater for the storage bin set at 84 F) and just add to the tank and let the Ph fall where it may It sounds too easy to be real!!!!! With such a soft water, couldn't the PH continue to fall into dangerous levels without any addition of buffers such as the Neutral Regulator? You see, I am a worry-wart about these things.

Also, I think my tank is now going through a small Nitrite spike...I tested it with the Mendel 5-1 strip, and for the first time since 1.5 weeks ago (when I first started this tank), there is definitely pink color on the nitrite and nitrate readings. I can take care of Nitrate by more water change, but what should I do with the nitrite, as that is supposed to be taken care of by the good bacteria that I used in the Bio-Spira? The fish seem to be doing just fine, swimming, bickering and eating their frozen blood worm. Please advise if you have time.

Also, I will get the live baby brine shrimp...if not, can I sub with frozen baby brine shrimp? What about frozen adult brine shrimp? live Blackworm that my LFS has in stock? My fish seem to like only frozen blood worm...they did not care too much for frozen Brine shrimp, or the Wattley's frozen cube formula with garlic, or the flakes or the Sera Red coloring pellets. I hear the live Black worm need to be washed, and placed in fridge...anbd some believe they carry the bad things that lead to HITH (Hold in the head) disease?

OH, so much I do not know...and even as I read until I burst, I still dont know enough. Thanks again for all your patience. I have had goldfish, and regular tropicals before...but the discus is the only one that is forcing me to micro-manage every aspect of their lives. But they are indeed worth the effort...I just wish I understand water chemistry a bit more. Thanks again for all your concern and time. mike

[Apistomaster]

The water you have to work with is great. Don't worry about the pH regarding water changes.
The only thing that I would do and this is optional, would be to use a little peat moss filtration. Avoid the chemicals as we have already discussed.

The brine shrimp are best used live. The frozen baby brine shrimp begin to spoil almost as soon as they hit the water and the live shrimp hop around which triggers very enthusiastic feeding. Only buy eggs that are sold in sealed cans all small glass vials are notoriously poor quality and barely hatch. Your discus can easily eat about one teaspoon of hatched eggs daily. Feed those once in the morning and again at night. It may be that an automatic feeder would be useful to you so the discus get flakes or granules once or twice a day. I would go with once a day and feed the frozen foods alternately in the morning or evening. I personally get nervous feeding too much automatically so I'd lean to once a day. You can feed twice after you get home and before lights out.

Good brine shrimp eggs at a fair price are available from
www.brineshrimpdirect.com. Follow the directions and you will get good hatches. All your fish will eat them. Even my adult discus will eat baby brine shrimp. You will notice all your fish will become very healthy with the addition of live brine shrimp to their diet. Tetras, Dwarf cichlids, and Corydoras will all go crazy into a feeding frenzy when you feed them baby brine shrimp(nauplii).

[mikel]

the peat pellets that I bought from my lfs. It seems to be a good thing to slowly and gently make the water a bit acidic. But i think I will hold off using it until I get a good feel of what my water, which is very very soft, and comes out of the tap at 8 PH, does over time. If it doesnt have any KH to buffer, then the peat might cause a sharp, or slow decline in the PH in the tank, and that may be very bad for the fish. I will also begin to use it in small quantities, line a tablespoonful in a bag hung in a corner, to see what it does to the ph over time.

You will be proud of me, as I did a 50% water change this morning using only the water that I have aged since yesterday, with nothing in it but the new Amquil + that I just bought. In fact, when my aged water ran out, I also added two bucketful of direct tap water with Amquil mixed in and adjusted for warmth to make up the difference. The tank is clean, and the fish did not seem to care. I am not going to worry so much anymore...just concentrate on a stringent water change regiment with good conditioners. Thanks for liberating me from my worries. mike