water changes

[Sterno]

will water changes keep my tank from cycling i use treated tap water ?:confused:

[Polar_Bear]

No

[White Worm]

Rinsing your media too much with tap water will. What are you using to cycle the tank? Whats in the tank?

[Sterno]

i have a aquaclear power filter and an undergravel filter i havent been rinsing my media or cleaning the gravel i just siphon off water and replace it

[White Worm]

What are you cycling your tank with? Fish? Chemicals? Media from another source. Without continous food, your bio will die. Get rid of the undergravel filter.

[Sterno]

well my tank has reached its nitrogen cycle 0 amonia i wonder how long should the nitro cycle take i need to do a water change to lower the nitrite

[Don Trinko]

My best guess is it will take another 2 weeks. You can remove nitrites with wc or you can add salt. I have seen recomendations fron 1 teaspoon per 10g to 1 tablespoon to 10g. The salt protects the fish from nitrite poisoning. As long as the salt ppm is much greater than the nitrite ppm the hemoglobin (in the fish) absorbs the salt. The salt ions do not interfere with the ability to obsorb Oxygen. The nitrite do. Don T.

[mikel]

I didnt know this about aquarium salt. So, if there is an emergency with nitrite, one can always use salt to aid the fish...that;s very useful to know! thanks mike

[Squiggy]

Ok...temper that advice...You need the nitrites to feed other bacteria to cycle the tank. The salt only serves to aid the fish in dealing with nitrites. It doesn't remove them.

Joe

[Don Trinko]

Squiggy is correct. The salt protects the fish while the tank cycles.
After the tank cycles if you have amonia or nitrites there is a problem. Don T.

[Sterno]

will carbon remove salt ?

[kaceyo]

No, carbon will not remove salt.

[Sterno]

how often do i need to add salt ???

[tonymaccs]

I think your pH needs to be above 7.0 for the salt to work.
http://www.simplydiscus.com/library/disease_medications/general_info/nitrite_toxicity.shtml

[Graham]

Salt and pH have nothing to do with each other. Nitrite becomes more toxic in low pH water.....It's the chloride part of the salt molecule that protects the fish from BBD. If there are enough of them they out compete the nitrite ion from being absorbed at the gills surface.

Unless you are doing water changes, which would dilute the salt levels, then salt only needs to be added to the tank once. If you are doing water changes while the tank is cycling then add back an appropiate amount of salt for the new water. The only way to remove salt is via water changes

Any kind of salt can be used..''Aquarium salt'' is the biggest rip off in the industry

G

[Sterno]

thank you all for your help :)

[tonymaccs]

Graham,
I disagree that "Salt and pH have nothing to do with each other" in the context of how other chemicals interact with each other.
However, in this instance I was drawing attention to this article on the SD website which I coincidentally was reading a few moments before I saw this post.
http://www.simplydiscus.com/library/disease_medications/general_info/nitrite_toxicity.shtml

I haven't taken the opportunity to check it's veracity, but I assume you believe it to be wrong?

Tony

[kaceyo]

Hey Tony,
What Graham is saying is that salt doesn't effect pH in any way. The article points out that salt can help reduce nitrite poisoning and that pH can effect nitrite poisoning in that the lower the pH, the more toxic nitrite is. But it doesn't say the salt and pH are effecting each other.
HTH

Kacey

[Graham]

Sorry Tony but you're going to have to be a lot more exact as to where you disagree with me.

Salt and pH have very little to do with each other...

[Graham]

thanks Kacey posting at the same time..

G

[Graham]

helps the fish because the chloride ion (cl-) from the NACL (sodium chloride, or salt) attach's to the gill cells where oxygen enters the blood.

Just a fine point, the Cl-ion doesn't attach it just out numbers the NO2 ions and is taken up easily by the chloride pumps/receptors within the gill cells

[brewmaster15]

Hi Sterno,
Just so I understand this better..

Are you cycling the tank with Discus in it?:confused: If the tank is just being cycled with nothing but ammonia and no fish... Salt is not needed...nor is beneficial... Can you explain more what you are doing here?

If you have discus in that tank and its still cycling...I would not risk my discus cycling the tank thru an ammonia and subsequent nitrite spike using salt as a protection for the Nitrites... yes it can protect the fish from brown blood disease.. But its not a cure-all for high levels of nitrites in a cycling but fish inhabited tank...Its a tool to ameliorate a toxin.

If the tank has fish in it and you do lots of water changes...it may take longer for the biofilter to cycle but it will and theres less risk to your fish, IMO.

hth,
al

[White Worm]

What are you cycling your tank with? Fish? Chemicals? Media from another source. Without continous food, your bio will die.


Hi Sterno,
Just so I understand this better..

Are you cycling the tank with Discus in it?:confused: If the tank is just being cycled with nothing but ammonia and no fish... Salt is not needed...nor is beneficial... Can you explain more what you are doing here?

al

Lol, I tried to find that out at the beginning before the whole salt discussion. :D

[tonymaccs]

The fifth para is what I was referring to.
"Salt added to the aquarium, usually 2 tablespoons per 10 gallons water, helps the fish because the chloride ion (cl-) from the NACL (sodium chloride, or salt) attaches to the gill cells where oxygen enters the blood. This is also the place where nitrite enters the blood, therefore the chloride blocks the nitrite from entering. This only works well if the pH is above 7.0 as in acidic conditions Nitrite (NO2) will bind with hydrogen ions, H+ (acid contains more H+) and form Nitrous acid (HNO2). Nitrous acid is not blocked by CL- ions at the gill site, and thus can pass freely into the blood. "

[Sterno]

i did cycle my tank with the discus in it i had no other choice the tank has finally cycled my ph is about 7.5

[tonymaccs]

Did the fish appear to be affected? Hope they were ok.
Still no clarification to the quote in my last post above given Graham's comment that pH and salt have nothing to do with each other regarding Nitrites.
I've often been faced with little alternative to putting discus through a cycle and have done so with no noticeable effect. There are a number of ways to manage it.

[Graham]

Not sure what clarification you need...when the pH is above 7.0 or so nitrite stays in it's NO2 form, as the bacteria are breaking down ammonia, NH3 and it is quite capable of being picked up by the chloride ion pump cells within the gills. NaCl, will work, actually the Cl quite well with blocking the take up of the NO2


Below a pH of 7.0 Nitrite becomes HNO2, as the bacteria are breaking down ammonium NH4, getting an extra hydrogen ion. This element is readily absorbed by the fish and the Chloride ions, from the salt will not block all it's absorption by the fish.

Increasing the salt at lower pH's will help to some degree.

G

[tonymaccs]

Which brings us right back round to my first post in this thread to which it appears Graham now agrees.
It seems like every one of us is learning on the fly.

Tony

[Graham]

no learning on the fly ...that is simple chemistry....salt/chloride ions will work at any pH, they just work better at higher pH's...at lower pH's you'll need more of them.

Salt and pH still have no affect on each other..............

G

[tonymaccs]

Hair splitting- I think the point has been made.