Imported vs domestic discus

[sophie68]

Hello all,

Have been away for a while, busy at work...I recently acquired two new gorgeous discus, which are imported from Asia, at least I believe so!!!! I had some issues whith the first one but she's fine now. She has paired off and laid eggs etc... The second one is also gorgeous but is also giving me very minor problems. It could be that they are the biggest fish (about 4 inches) I ever acclimated. I am wondering what people's experiences are with imported discus in general. They do seem to be most colorful (does that mean hormones?????).
I am only trying to learn more!;);)

Thanks,
Sophie

[Elite Aquaria]

Sophie,

You bring up a very important point regarding coloration of imported discus. Although all are not treated with hormones, there is a large majority that are. The key is to get the fish from a reputable importer. Remember imported fish are generally breed by someone other than the person whom is importing the fish. So there can be conflicts of interest. The best bet for purchasing any discus is to get them directly from the breeder.

Dan

[Hans Kloss]

I am wondering what people's experiences are with imported discus in general. They do seem to be most colorful (does that mean hormones?????).


I'm dealing with asian discus from 4 years. Generally they grow smaller than domestic ones, probably because of selection- best stuff is raised to maturity and sold for much higher prices.
They are also usually more difficult to breed.
Their coloring is a result of feeding with food rich of astaxanthin and/or with saltwater shrimps.
Asian discus are often infected with parasites, harmful protozoans and bacteria, but it strongly depend on their real origin.
Red strains are usually easier to keep and breed.
My own asians (leopards and red turquoises) were bought as red blue fish and after one year of feeding with no coloring supplements they become to be brownish-blue or yellow-blue.
Hans

[Green Country Discus]

Find a good importer with a honest breeder and you have a good shot at getting quality Discus. Try another way and .....hope you get lucky :confused:. The Asians breed some of the most desirable new strains of Discus. US raised can be as good or better. Big strains are usually US or German IMO. We ordered from a shady supplier/breeder in the distant past, receiving hormones fish, wormy fish and small strains . Be advised if you go down this road ;) ! There are nice fish to be had out there with the proper homework!

[Darren's Discus]

I believe there is no substitute for locally grown and bred domestic discus,I would buy them anyday of the week over imported stuff the trouble is we just can't get the variety here that asian breeders offer.To be honest some of the nicest discus i have seen in a long time are that of Rod lewis's albino intermidiates they truly surpass any fish i have imported in the last year.If Rod could produce them in large numbers i would buy them all. ps this pic is a couple of month's old and does not do the fish justice !



cheers

[Apistomaster]

After a few years hiatus from discus breeding I started over with 16 Red Turquoise imported from Asia. All grew well and developed nice colors.
I ended up with five mated pairs that spawned regularly.
Only one pair ever produced fertile eggs and ultimately, two broods.

I kept eight of the fry from the one fertile pair, lost one through an accident but ended up with three fertile pairs from the remaining seven.

I got rid of all the original fish although a friend still has that one pair that produced these fry. They continued to spawn for him for another six months but ate their spawns. There have been no more spawns from the pair in the last six months.

I know this is not a large sample but it sure indicates to me that something was wrong with the original fish because their progeny are all producing fertile spawns. I suspect hormones not natural color promoting foods is the reason the original fish were by and large infertile.

I will never again buy domestic discus intended for breeding from anyone except another breeder in the USA.
I prefer wild discus despite their problems as a matter of taste but at least I know wild discus have never been treated with hormones just for a little temporary color enhancement for quick sales.

[Hans Kloss]

I know this is not a large sample but it sure indicates to me that something was wrong with the original fish


The same (or even worse) things were with my asians. Males are often infertile, pairs ate their spawn etc.



I suspect hormones not natural color promoting foods is the reason the original fish were by and large infertile.


Discus cannot produce red dye- it must be added in food. Hormones are (maybe?) in use to promote fish growth but not for coloring. I suspect rather "medication" of youngsters to be the main problem.
I've seen several adult asian leopards imported intentionally for breeding. They were twice larger than my own and they were quite easy to spawn.
Hans

[Don Trinko]

I think most dealer/breeders end up importing fish. If they are successful in selling fish they sell them faster than they can breed them so they have to import to meet customer needs. Don T.

[Rod]

I prefer domestic discus for health and size, not to say imports can't be good too but as a rule my biggest ,roundest and best breeders are all home grown. I always thought the reason imports don't grow as large is because there is a period of time during which they are put on the market, flown half way round the world and had to adjust to new water quality. This could be as little as a few weeks to a few months, during which time the discus likely didn't receive the very best care. Even my socalled jumbo german discus didn't cut it, i didn't find them particularly large when i received them and they have not grown to the sizes of my domestics. Not even close. Body shape is highly variable, some good specimens and some specimans are so bad i cull them out. i would be too embarressed to sell them. But worst of all is the quality of the fry, huge %'s of deformed fry. Obviously commercially bred with no regard to the overall quality.

Hans, i do not think anyone uses hormones for size other than for show fish. Human growth hormones are very expensive to use. It is my understanding sex hormones are what is commonly used on the discus to improve the color (especially blue) on young fish. even a very light dose on a young bd gives the fish a mettalic sheen and cherry red eyes making them more desirable to the market.

Rod:)

[Hans Kloss]

Hans, i do not think anyone uses hormones for size other than for show fish. Human growth hormones are very expensive to use.

Using growth hormones is non sense. Anabolic steroids (testosterone related drugs) will fulfill merchant's expectations, but they can cause infertility ;). Of course I don't have any evidence for it, only rumors and I personally doubt of it. Regardless of having a bunch of infertile fish.
Hans

[Rod]

Using growth hormones is non sense. Anabolic steroids (testosterone related drugs) will fulfill merchant's expectations, but they can cause infertility ;). Of course I don't have any evidence for it, only rumors and I personally doubt of it. Regardless of having a bunch of infertile fish.
Hans

Hans, you could well be right. The only evidence i have is from rumours as well. But no matter what is used, i do not think using any hormones could be good for the discus.
Rod

[kaceyo]

I agree that one of the problems with imports is the stress that overseas shipping can cause. I think in some cases it can cause damage that the fish never fully recovers from. Although, the biggest fish I have personaly raised was an import from China. It was a Wayne Ng Spotted Erupt that I bought as a 3" juvie, which grew to 9" total length. That fish never spawned, tho it did pair up with other fish.
As far as hormones are conserned, I believe their can be no doubt that they are being used to enhance colors. I've seen lists from exporters that gave buyers a choice between hormoned and non-hormoned. There was even an importer here in the US that listed his fish the same way.

Kacey

[Apistomaster]

The original 16 discus I used to get started again did grow well so I can't complain in that department.
I'm sure it depends on the strain but these red turquoise were already 2-1/2 inches when I bought them and well colored.
Their fry were only slightly less red at the same size but were just as well marked with the blue striations. There was no difference in color intensity as adults. The color augumentation may be more of smoke screen for the real advantage of using hormones by major breeder/exporters; the real reason for the use of testosterone like chemicals may be more for its chemical castration effects.
This is done with the Dwarf Gourami exported from SE Asian farms so why not do it with discus?
It is one way to assure a hold on the market for desirable fish with high market value while maintaining the prices just low enough to make importation more profitable than US commercial breeding.
I do agree that breeding discus as a business is not likely to be very profitable because of the cost it takes to raise them but if all the imported discus were fertile the market demand would be easily met by the production of many local discus hobbyists not much differently than angelfish are often supplied by local hobbyist/breeders. The domestic discus is actually one of the easiest of fish to breed and no other fish guides its own fry through the most delicate stages of life. They almost raise themselves.

As a practical matter, the vast majority of discus are kept for the adornment of an aquarium, just as any other fish. Prevention of the breeding of these fish by the minority of those who wish to breed discus only effects a small portion of the real market but it does assure great dependence of the of the world wide discus market on the efficient mass production of the Asian farms.

It is just wishful thinking to hope these "damaged" discus could be boycotted since the market for "painted" fish, Parrot Cichlids, Balloon Rams is well supported by large numbers of buyers. The use of hormones on discus does little to effect their utility as salable display fish so it is more insidious. Look at every problem or questionable practices used on tropical fish and the trail leads to SE Asia. The skills used are a double edged sword. They are the same tools that have assured a constant supply of many difficult to breed fish like Red Tail Black sharks and Bala Sharks which are endangered in the wild or baby black ghosts which can't be caught in the wild.

I'm sure there are SE Asian discus producers who do not resort to using hormones and they deserve supporting by voting with our dollars. Unfortunately it is impossible to tell by just looking at them which discus are from those breeders that practice good ethics.
Pedigrees or some other form of chain of custody documentation would be easier to fabricate than the flood of bootlegged computer software from those with same lack of ethics.