F1, F2, etc

[B-O-F]

So, if I breed a pair of wilds the prodgeny would be F1 from wild stock. If I then breed those offspring thier fry would be F2. ( I think I have that right )

If you were to then breed an F1 fry back to the wild parent what would the fry then be classified as ?

And just as an aside, at what stage would the fry start to be regarded as domestic rather than wilds ?

[B-O-F]

Anyone ? :)

[brewmaster15]

I'll try this one.. but be forewarned...theres different opinions out there .

If you breed any distinctly different parental stock the resulting stock is considered F1 generation. The "F" stands for Filial.. (meaning siblings)..The key is the parental stock needs to be distinctly different.

In your example...


if I breed a pair of wilds the prodgeny would be F1 from wild stock. generally no...unless they were distinctly different... as in a wild green X wild Blue..then you have an F1 set of offspring... A pair of wild rsg...produce rsg fry...usually they are considered tank raised after a generation or two.

In the above F1 cross...If you breed these f1s to each other...you have a "filial" 2 cross... and so on.

If you decide to "back cross" from your F2 to your F1 ... you technically have offspring that are NOT called f3... because its no longer a filial cross.... Depending on how homogenous your F generations are at this stage...you are starting to line breed.

It gets complicated if you take your f1 stock and set up several pairs... now you are working with several lines of parental stock "P1", and when you cross between the "F" generations of these two parental lines ...you technically have a "reciprocal Cross." or Reciprocal F1 Cross...

Most hobbyists don't have the tank space for all these breeding manipulations though so you seldom hear of them.

HTh,
al

[fishscale]

I'm interested, what do F1's from wild stock look like? I would imagine a lot like the wild parents, but maybe I'm wrong? Are these available for sale often?

[B-O-F]

I'm interested, what do F1's from wild stock look like? I would imagine a lot like the wild parents, but maybe I'm wrong? Are these available for sale often?

If both of the parents are the same type then most, if not all, of the fry should grow up looking the same. F1 just means they are 1st generation babies of wild fish but Brewmaster thinks they should not be refrred to as F1, merely as fry from wild stock, and he may well be right. :)

If this forum is anything to go by then lots of people like wild Discus and many will be breeding them as well.

[Moon]

I'll try this one.. but be forewarned...theres different opinions out there .

If you breed any distinctly different parental stock the resulting stock is considered F1 generation. The "F" stands for Filial.. (meaning siblings)..The key is the parental stock needs to be distinctly different.

In your example...

. generally no...unless they were distinctly different... as in a wild green X wild Blue..then you have an F1 set of offspring... A pair of wild rsg...produce rsg fry...usually they are considered tank raised after a generation or two.

In the above F1 cross...If you breed these f1s to each other...you have a "filial" 2 cross... and so on.

If you decide to "back cross" from your F2 to your F1 ... you technically have offspring that are NOT called f3... because its no longer a filial cross.... Depending on how homogenous your F generations are at this stage...you are starting to line breed.

It gets complicated if you take your f1 stock and set up several pairs... now you are working with several lines of parental stock "P1", and when you cross between the "F" generations of these two parental lines ...you technically have a "reciprocal Cross." or Reciprocal F1 Cross...

Most hobbyists don't have the tank space for all these breeding manipulations though so you seldom hear of them.

HTh,
al

Al
I've heard of people talking about G1, G2 etc. This description is common amongst African chiclid hobbiests. Does the G have any significance.
Joe

[brewmaster15]

Hi Joe,
I'm not sure what it means:confused::confused::confused: never heard the term used....maybe The "G" is for generation...I'd imagine if you bred fish like some africans in a large community tank it might be hard to determine the parentage, but maybe they use Generation as a term to describe the fry raised in the tank when the parents are not known.....absolutely pure guessing here.:)

-al

[kaceyo]

OK Al, you know you've set yourself up to be the answer guy here, right? ;) So...To be called F3's, the fish must be the end product of three successive sibling to sibling spawns. And that is only if you started with two distinctly different fish. IYO, can "distinctly different" be two fish that are of the same strain, and therefore resemble each other, but come from completely different lines? If not, how could you carry on a line that continually produces F3 offspring?

Kacey

[brewmaster15]

Hi kacey,
I'm just regurgitating information here....not an expert by any means...:)


IYO, can "distinctly different" be two fish that are of the same strain, and therefore resemble each other, but come from completely different lines? If not, how could you carry on a line that continually produces F3 offspring? Alot of this is terminology and unfortunately many terms are used interchangeably and probably incorrectly..


IYO, can "distinctly different" be two fish that are of the same strain, and therefore resemble each other, but come from completely different lines?
If they are the same strain but unrelated , the off spring are not F's by definition...they are line bred....

An F3 must be filial or it isn't an F3 .. You can only continually produce F3s as long as Siblings of the F2's are alive and breeding to make f3....

Once you start bringing in non siblings but of the same strain , you are entering the realm of line breeding.....Think Red turqs... cross a red turq to unrelated redturq and you are line breeding...the result isnt a F1 set of offspring...its a line bred red turq.

Thats my interpretation.

hth,
al

[B-O-F]

Seems like the 'G' thing is the answer then. ie, G1 from wild stock or G1 from a particular pairing.

I feel it is quite an important designation. I want to breed wild fish with the specific intention of retaining the looks rather than changing them. Several others here want to do the same thing with heckals. It is important for the day when we can no longer import wild fish. A day that cannot be far away ( and rightly so )

It still leaves the question of when broods from wild stock become domestc by definition though :)

[brewmaster15]

I feel it is quite an important designation. I want to breed wild fish with the specific intention of retaining the looks rather than changing them. Several others here want to do the same thing with heckals. It is important for the day when we can no longer import wild fish. A day that cannot be far away ( and rightly so )

It still leaves the question of when broods from wild stock become domestc by definition though

This is pretty much line breeding.. thats what you are trying to do , establish a Line of a strain..the strain being a wild Blue or green.... in order for this to be a viable program... you'll need additional wild stock infusions though.. or you'll wind up with "domestics" in short order.

I think its important to try and breed the wild stock to augment the genetics of the domestics...but if the purpose is to save the wild populations and reduce collection pressures on them....it may be an over simplified goal.....The only way to do that is to protect the native habitat that creates the genetics of that fish in the first place..

A wild blue discus is not the result of a male and female paired in a tank.....Its the result of thousands of possible pairings, chance, environment and many other things..

The moment man steps in and manipulates that..."wild " is less wild..

Hope you follow what I am getting at.

-al

[B-O-F]

This is pretty much line breeding.. thats what you are trying to do , establish a Line of a strain..the strain being a wild Blue or green.... in order for this to be a viable program... you'll need additional wild stock infusions though.. or you'll wind up with "domestics" in short order.

I think its important to try and breed the wild stock to augment the genetics of the domestics...but if the purpose is to save the wild populations and reduce collection pressures on them....it may be an over simplified goal.....The only way to do that is to protect the native habitat that creates the genetics of that fish in the first place..

A wild blue discus is not the result of a male and female paired in a tank.....Its the result of thousands of possible pairings, chance, environment and many other things..

The moment man steps in and manipulates that..."wild " is less wild..

Hope you follow what I am getting at.

-al

Yes, I see what you are getting at :) and you are right of course. But the fact remains that before much longer wild fish will go the way of other wild animals and regardless of the state of their enviroment or numbers you will not be allowed to export them. ( Tortoises (sp) come to mind ) The nearest the breeder hobbiest will be able to get is line bred captive samples ( although I accept that they will 'wander off' from the original look eventually )

Domestic cross breeding to enhance colour traits /mishaps or to exploit the occasional albino throwoff ( I know you like these but dont get me started on that subject :) ) is ok but they are engineered fish and I dread to think where it is going to go next.

[brewmaster15]

but dont get me started on that subject :) AWW>now what fun would that be!:D:D:D


Domestic cross breeding to enhance colour traits /mishaps or to exploit the occasional albino throwoff ( I know you like these but dont get me started on that subject :) ) is ok but they are engineered fish and I dread to think where it is going to go next.

Seriously though.... so are you planning on only breeding wilds in your hatchery then?

-al

[B-O-F]

<quote Al - > Seriously though.... so are you planning on only breeding wilds in your hatchery then? </quote>

I am not sure but I am leaning in that direction.

To be honest it's not really a preservation thing, it's just my advancing years showing though :)

I had to give up fishkeeping getting on for 40 years ago. At that time I considered myself to be fairly knowledgable and ( I think ) I was one of the first, if not the first, to breed Kuhli loach in captivity. but that ended and I always wanted to get back into it with discus. Now, at last, is my chance.

My memories of Discus were the original browns, occasionally you would see the red or blue striations coming in but for the most part it was just plain ordinary Discus and if a hobbiest got them to breed he felt pretty damn proud of himself.

So my interest flared up again recently ( like it often has :) ) and I trundelled round some of the local fish shops and looked at their Discus....

OMG.... what the hell are they ? The bl**dy goldfish boys have got their hands on them. Discus were the most magnificent fish, why on earth would they want to do that to them ?

Ok, so I am calming down now :) Looking at all the pictures on simply doesn't exactly make me shudder anymore but look at these wilds from someone else's post ( thanks) .... How can you improve on that, and why would you want to ?

[B-O-F]

<quote Al - > Seriously though.... so are you planning on only breeding wilds in your hatchery then? </quote>

I am not sure but I am leaning in that direction.

To be honest it's not really a preservation thing, it's just my advancing years showing though :)

I had to give up fishkeeping getting on for 40 years ago. At that time I considered myself to be fairly knowledgable and ( I think ) I was one of the first, if not the first, to breed Kuhli loach in captivity. but that ended and I always wanted to get back into it with discus. Now, at last, is my chance.

My memories of Discus were the original browns, occasionally you would see the red or blue striations coming in but for the most part it was just plain ordinary Discus and if a hobbiest got them to breed he felt pretty damn proud of himself.

So my interest flared up again recently ( like it often has :) ) and I trundelled round some of the local fish shops and looked at their Discus....

OMG.... what the hell are they ? The bl**dy goldfish boys have got their hands on them. Discus were the most magnificent fish, why on earth would they want to do that to them ?

Ok, so I am calming down now :) Looking at all the pictures on simply doesn't exactly make me shudder anymore but look at these wilds from someone else's post ( thanks) .... How can you improve on that, and why would you want to ?

edit - OK so the attachment didnt work, I will post it when i get home

[brewmaster15]

I Understand your views and feelings...I have always appreciated the wilds for what they are...half my collections are wilds...:)

But I have bought them, bred, and sold them... If you breed just wilds...you'll have a small niche in the market which may make it hard to survive in the long run..It'll be fun , no doubt, but if your goal is to make a few bucks...it may be very hard. Also..Wilds don't color up much as juvies...which is a disadvantage as you'll need to hold them longer than domestics and that takes additional resources.

Theres something that you may want to think about regarding your aversion to crossing and domestic lines...

If you do breed wilds and bring A fair number to work with...You will find that what is considered a strain...ie blues, browns, greens are not uniform in color and pattern...and that leads to a perplexing problem.. For example... if you pair up a wild blue with a deep red base, but little striations and a wild blue with many well defined striations.....You'll most likely get a mix of offspring... running the range of looking like each parent to a whole host of intermediates....If you raise them all up to breeding age.. or maybe keep a portion you like best for breeding stock.... which will you chose to make your next line from? Do you pick The striated ones? If you do...have you not duplicated the Domestic Red Turqs in appearence or maybe even in their original developement...... or perhaps you pick the solid red ones and wind up something akin to the alenquers and red alenquer domestics or rose reds or san merahs.... The very act of selecting your future breeding stock from that first pairing based on what you personally like is really doing the crossing and selective breeding that you dislike. What you and someone else choses to cross may be based on different preferences...but the result is the same...wild is no longer wild.

Not trying to de-rail you here, just looking at this from a biologists point of view and a fan of wilds and domestics alike.:)

hth,
al

[Lisachromis]

Al
I've heard of people talking about G1, G2 etc. This description is common amongst African chiclid hobbiests. Does the G have any significance.
Joe

The G1 and G2 was something that the CRLCA was trying to promote. It's exactly the same as F1 and F2. Most people know what F1 etc means so they don't bother with what one place is trying to do.

[B-O-F]

Lisachromis thanks for the information.

Al - Yes, that is certainly something to think about :coffee:

[fishscale]

Sorry for derailment, but, can anyone point me in the direction of some pictures of F1 wild x wild?

[B-O-F]

Fishscale - I am not sure if we are talking along the same lines here, there are many different 'types' of wild discus and as Al says above, most of them may not be true phenotypes anyway, even in the wild.

I do not have a picture of 'F1' from wild but the picture below ( stolen fro another post, hope the owner doesn't mind )is of lake tefe 'red spotted green' wild Discus. If two of these are bred the 'F1' fry should look pretty much the same ( since both parents look pretty much the same :) )

[fishscale]

Are there any breeders out there who do wild x wild? I've seen a lot of people selling wild x domestic, and I am wondering since there seems to be a big demand for wild discus, why not just have tank bred discus that look the same?

[kaceyo]

If I'm reading things right, and you're breeding wilds, there's no way to know if, and very unlikely that, they are brother and sister. So by definition the offspring won't be F1. You couldn't produce F1's untill the 2nd spawning, and then they'd be called domestics.

Kacey

[B-O-F]

If I'm reading things right, and you're breeding wilds, there's no way to know if, and very unlikely that, they are brother and sister. So by definition the offspring won't be F1. You couldn't produce F1's untill the 2nd spawning, and then they'd be called domestics.

Kacey

Yes, I think we settled on using 'G' for generation 1 from wild stock. The idea, if I do it, wold be like Fishlover says, to keep a strain of 'wild look'

As to demand, I dont really know if there would be one :)

[brewmaster15]

B-O-F,
That "G" designation is really an unaccepted one... Lisa explained it in here post...


The G1 and G2 was something that the CRLCA was trying to promote. It's exactly the same as F1 and F2. Most people know what F1 etc means so they don't bother with what one place is trying to do.


By that ...G= F , but most use F.

Kacey... ..Its all in the terminology..."F" is for filial and that means siblings..
The F1 offspring though are the result of two distinctly different parents...so the parents (P) would not need to be siblings each other for the F1 anyway...

Two wild RSG s bred yield tank raised RSG....this if you breed the siblings of this off spring...you are line breeding a strain.

A wild RSG crossed with Wild blue yield... "F1 wild RSGXWildblue" offspring. Breed these F1s to each other and you have f2... breed these F2s or f1s back to the parent and you don't call the next generation an "F"... it becomes a form of line breeding.

A wild Heckel Crossed witha wild Blue yield "F1 wild heckelX wild Blue "


Breed a domestic Leopard X wild RSG.. and you have offspring that are "F1 LeopardXwildRSG"

This is all looks good on paper... but In reality it takes a tremendous amount of tank space and time designations to carry these kind of breeding out...... I've never done it past F1 with discus..

I have F5 angels though that I have been working with now... and I just started a line of F1 wild scalare angels X domestic ....These I will try to carry out. Angels are so prolific and reproduce relatively faster that I think its easier to work with them this way.

Hth,
al

[B-O-F]

B-O-F,
That "G" designation is really an unaccepted one... Lisa explained it in here post...


al

Yes, I saw it...... but using the G for generation when the F does not apply seemed like a good solution to the need to say where something came from :)

[kaceyo]

Al, I re-read your first post and I had it backwards. Thanks for the clarification. I can't get past the idea that the parents must be different before their fry can be called F1. I always thought just the opposite was true, and line breeding was going to a different line of the same strain. I've got alot to learn, and un-learn.

Kacey

[brewmaster15]

LOl... yes but then you add one more meaning to an already vague Letter "g":)

How about this.. use CB. Captive bred is a designation used alot in reptile breeding programs. They use wc for wild caught and CB for captive bred...often the year is added...

Cb wild blue 2007:)

hth,
al

[B-O-F]

LOl... yes but then you add one more meaning to an already vague Letter "g":)


al

Ah well :) If I can add a little confusion as I pass along then my life will not have been in vane :)

CB would work as well :)