Raising Fry... whats it really take ? [Archive]

brewmaster15

11-17-2007, 07:09 AM

Hi all,
Thought I'd bring this up in discussion here and we can move to the breeding section latter...

For many hobbyists breeding discus is the biggest challenge they set their sights on....its probably one of the greatest thrills seeing a pair of Fry swimming around the adults feeding... In many cases just getting to that point is a major success with some pairs... some are naturals at parenting...others well they need many attempts to get it right...others never do..

Then it happens and you get your spawn.... Now what?:)

This is where our discussion starts... What is it really going to take to raise those fry to Good quality, healthy, salable fish in the 2" range? It may seem easy... hey just give them lots of food and water right? What about tank space? How many should you really grow out in a 55 gal, 75, 125?How often do you need to feed them and what can you look forward to for water changes... What happens to all that work if you don't give them optimum care.? How many will you keep for yourself if this is a line you are looking to continue and develop.

In retrospect I've personally found all of what goes into the care and related issues of the fry after they are free swimming to be the biggest challenge in breeding.

Recently I have been blessed with some prolific parents...Now I have the logistics of where to raise all the fry? I have 2 spawns occupying 2 each 125 gal tanks 1 75 gal tank, 1 55 gal, and the breeders in their 2 each 30 gal tanks...My goal when I breed is to raise the fry to 1.5-2".... So far I am using a total of 440 gals between my 2 pair and 2 spawns, and 3rd spawn in in the works..

My point is raising fry takes alot more than just food and water...it takes space, and lots of it...at least when you are trying to put size on them and grow them as a quality juvie. I think this area needs a little attention.

Thats my observation....I thought it'd be good for all the "Breeders to be" to hear from the "breeders that are" ...share the experiences, issues that need to be dealt with...culling procedures, tank space, water parameters,foods , etc.

What have you all found that it Really takes to raise Fry to a good size?

thanks,
al

alxjss

11-17-2007, 10:37 AM

Wow Brew, nice topic. Will eliminate alot of ?'s. But how do u get them to the wiggler stage? Can u cover that as well?

jeep

11-17-2007, 01:15 PM

My point is raising fry takes alot more than just food and water...it takes space, and lots of it...at least when you are trying to put size on them and grow them as a quality juvie. I think this area needs a little attention.

From my limited experience, this is critical! Living in a 3br ranch with hardwood floors and no basement, raising fry of any quality is tough! A large spawn needs a large tank, or two. It takes great water quality and constant maintenance every single day!! Slip up once and you can easily end up with a tank full of dead fry, or worse, IMO, a tank full of future culls...

kaceyo

11-17-2007, 01:57 PM

Brian,
You think you've got it tough? LOL. Try it in a 3rd story two bedroom condo with rugs throughout. Then again, I'm here by myself, and I do take your point. I raise a spawn in 55gal tanks and it took awhile to figure out how many I could keep safely at any given size. If I don't cull frequently enough or in large enough #'s the whole spawn suffers. The first couple of culling sessions will eliminate 2/3ds of a 100+ fry spawn. These will be some deformities but mostly slow growers and footballs. The rest I can be sure, with few exceptions, will be quality salable/breedable discus. Then I start selling them as they grow, just before they overcrowd the tank. That's not as easy as it sounds. I've had to cull many nice fish because I didn't have enough buyers in the short period of time I had to cut down on the bioload in their tank. Or because I just didn't start selling them soon enough. I try to end up with 8 breeding quality fish in the 55 and finish raising them out. That means twice daily wc's and at least 5 feedings a day if I want some 7, or maybe 8 inchers.

Kacey

B-O-F

11-17-2007, 02:50 PM

How, exactly, do you all cull your fish ? I dont mean how do you choose which fry to cull, I mean how do you kill them humanely ?

jeep

11-17-2007, 04:14 PM

A lot of people put them in the freezer. I use an overdose of Tricaine. A little in a bucket of tank water and they go to sleep and quit breathing in about 20 seconds...

Ardan

11-17-2007, 05:09 PM

Great topic, since I hope to accomplish this someday:)

What do you feed and when?
At what age do they get what?

How much water do you change and how often? twice daily?
Do you siphon the fry out to move them to a larger tank or do you net them? At what age?

Thanks:)
Ardan

jeep

11-17-2007, 09:06 PM

Brian,
You think you've got it tough? LOL. Try it in a 3rd story two bedroom condo with rugs throughout.

Ok, I guess I'm not so bad off anymore :D

You're doing a great job with those spots for such a limited environment!!!

kaceyo

11-17-2007, 09:14 PM

Thanks Brian, I had to make some sacrifices tho. I had to sell all my Blue Knights and 9 bar leps so that every tank has either a breeders or juvies with breeder potential.

Kacey

GrillMaster

11-17-2007, 11:54 PM

I need a damn basement!!! :D

AADiscus

11-19-2007, 10:26 AM

Breeding discus and raising fry is like an art. Anyone can do it and some can do it better. It's all with practice and patience. Taking care of the fish in the very beginning is very important. IMO. If you grow healthy happy fish to maturity then you are off to a great start. (Thats the easy part) Once you get a pair then you get eggs you get so excited. However there is always (what seems) hurdles to get thru. Egg eaters, fighting among the pair, etc. Now you get wigglers, wow what an experience that is for the first time. Changing your routine on the pair really starts at this time. Alot more care than before is required for the next 2-3 months. lol Here is a simply break down on a routine spawn we have. Remember that every spawn is different and different things you might have to do for them. This is just generic.

1. Breeding pair put in tank. PP pair and tank to clean them up. Check heater to make sure temp is 82.
2. continue feeding same food as in community tank. BH, FBW flakes, earth worms, and sometimes live worms.
3. wc's are with RO/tap water mix, wc is 50% a day.
4. spawn......now wigglers on the cone.
5. wc water is aged tap water gradually added over the first couple days. Continue feeding pair but no BH. Keeping the tank clean as possible. Continue same wc and wiping of the tank.
6. freeswimmers....gradually up the heater to around 84-85 (over time) leave a light directly on the tank 24/7 until they are about 3 weeks old. Start feeding bbs at day 3. Wc's change to 2 x's a day. 90% each time. Wiping the tank once a day, rinsing the sponge filter a couple times a week. bbs will foul your tank up in no time and you will end up with issues. IMO.
7. After week 1 start introducing new foods. Shaved bh, chopped up worms. continue till they are eating it good then start introducing other foods.
8. Once they are doing good eating all kinds of food besides the parents then the parents are moved to a community tank, fry are left in the breeder tank. Start culling fry you notice are culls
9. They get moved to a grow out tank when they start outgrowing the breeder tank. Time frame really depends on the size of spawn. They will either get moved to a 45 or 55 gal tank before they are put in a bigger tank than that. You don't want them to feel overwhelmed. If the spawn is hugh then they are split between tanks. This is when the culling gets heavy. We will always move 8-10 in a tank just for us. :D Because you can! These will be grow outs for us for future breeders.
10. Once they reach 2.5" they are ready to go to good homes.

Remember, this is generic. Every pair is different and require different routines. You will know your fish and how they react with spawns once you have a few.

Another topic that would be good is a "WHAT IF" topic.

Example:
What if.......the fish are fighting with the fry on them
What if.......they eat the eggs
What if.......the fry won't attach

There is so many different things to try and do in these issues and it is always interesting to see how other people do it.

Diamond Discus

11-19-2007, 11:10 AM

Great thread!

Elcid

11-19-2007, 11:16 AM

To me the most import factor to raising fry is Timing. Always right down when the eggs are laid, when they hatch. These two are the most important times to remember! Why? - to get the live brine shrimp factory started. :)

I like to use 4 coke bottles for a batch of fry, each bottle 8 hours appart. It really depends a lot on the parents how soon you need to get started but after 24 hrs of attachment I always start my brineshrimp factory so that I have fresh newly hatched available all of the time and I will keep making it as long as the babies will eat it.

HTH,
Sandeep

brewmaster15

11-19-2007, 12:27 PM

Jason

11-19-2007, 01:33 PM

Great thread Al! maybe you should send some alenquers north;)

Most problems can be overcome with hard work, knowledge, and patience.

For the last several years the hobby for me has evolved into things like working with wilds and trying crosses, growing out all the f1's and f2's looking for those fish I want. so space has been the one issue(besides life's pitfalls) that I'm constantly dealing with.

The one thing that helps me on this aspect is that I've made all my own tanks for years. At first its was because I did'nt have the money to buy tanks but now its because of the dimensions, I just can't work with standard store bought tanks. All my tanks are 36" long 24" deep, and 16" high. This allows me to stack them on a rack 3 tiers high, I can easily reach into the first 2 to wipe by hand and stand on a stool to reach the 3rd tier tank. This allows me to have 3-60g tanks in the basement in just a 3'X2' footprint. I just can't do that with 50g 55g or other size manufactured tanks or reach in to clean them as easily.

Apistomaster

11-19-2007, 06:22 PM

Sandeep,
one thing that may make you life easier with the BBS... after a few days of eating the live BBS...they readily take frozen.. I make huge hatches and freeze the newly hatched BBS.. zip lock bags work great.....break off a piece and you are good to go..I also reccommend having some BBS frzn in case a hatch fails.

-al

Al's recommendation is a very good one. I have to say that because I use the same practice. Sometimes I just don't feel like setting up a batch of brine shrimp for a few days and then there are those occasions when I have a poor hatch. It's always nice to have both some fresh frozen nauplli or decapsulated cysts to tide me over.
I also need a basement. Raising discus in a tight area in a trafficked path and on wooden floors is more difficult than when the breeders have privacy and vibration free floors. Carpet doesn't eliminate vibrations caused by walking by the breeders. Concrete is bliss. That is my personal bane; the way things are for now.
Having the breeding tanks elevated at or above shoulder height doesn't hurt either.
Feeding frequency is important too. If you have to work(poor devil) then the feeding is usually going to have to be done in the morning and afternoon on. I have found that young discus will begin to feed on earthworm sticks at a rather early stage. This is good because the food slowly softens, doesn't easily foul the water and permits the fry to graze until you can supply them with live brine shrimp of finely ground beef heart blend. Both are foods that should have the excess removed once the fry have had their fill because they spoil quickly.

GrillMaster

11-19-2007, 07:33 PM

Nice write up Angela!! :thumbsup:

brewmaster15

11-20-2007, 06:29 AM

Now I know theres more people out there that are breeding discus......so come on everyone step up and share...

Any one ever made a made mistake and ruined a batch of frys? Ever cross a bad cross and not be able to find buyers, or do a good batch and not find buyers. Ever crowd the tanks so much that you runted half the fry? Ever have a group of fry that had deformities to high extent?

Anyone that tries their hand at breeding is going to run into these things or other issues....and they are all an important of what goes into raising fry...

So...lets hear it!;)

-al

dishpanhands

11-20-2007, 07:25 AM

I had a batch about six months ago that I still haven't figured out. every thing started normal. but when they were about 6 day freeswimming I did my WC and about an hour later the batch of them went to the bottom of the tank. I thought I killed them all. then by morning they were back to acting normal. This batch after that never would grow they grew real slow..They eat real good and acted good but wouldn't grow..I gave them to the guy I usely sale them to. He said they died the first night he had them.. He usely never has trouble with them.. I have had spawns after them from the same parents they have done fine. Just don't understand what happen there.

brewmaster15

11-20-2007, 07:35 AM

Not sure what happened with your fry but I suspect it was shock ... I used to buy large groups of fry in the dime size range from a reputable breeder and sometimes your average hobbyist ....I enjoy growing fry as much as I do breeding them:)

If I bought the fry locally, I never had a problem with growth...if I receive them shipped overnight...most did not grow well....I chalk it up to the shipping stress...

I really think that any stress or problems that occurs to the fry in the first month often will ruin the batch....no proof of that, but its just been my observation.. Growth, health, uniformity and development wise...My best batches of fry are always those that have experienced no stress factors..

hth,
al

dishpanhands

11-20-2007, 07:54 AM

Your right. I'm just haveing trouble figuring out what caused the stress the first time. Now I'm afraid I'll do it again because I don't know what I did..LOL.. I use all RO water with ro right on them..Only time I've had trouble was that one day..:(

dishpanhands

11-20-2007, 08:08 AM

Ok got another thing going on here. I have a male that is too protective when I enter the room He tryes to throw me out...LOL..You can hear him hit the side of the tank sometimes I think hes going to break it..LOL..the problem is in doing this somtimes he kills some of the babies I would pull him but he is such a good male, he holds so still while they eat him, and the female tryes to hide from them..LOL..If I pull him I'm not so sure they would do as good..They produce good fish..

brewmaster15

11-20-2007, 08:25 AM

I use a piece of lucite from the hardware store to cover sides the tank of my aggressive protectors..It lets ambient light in, and I only cover the sides about 3/4 , leaving the top open...The male peaks over the edge at me ...but seems secure enough that he doesn't go ballistic.

hth,
al

on the fry issue...be sure to check your pH and conductivity and temp... that seems the likely cause since you are using RO.

AADiscus

11-20-2007, 09:20 AM

About a year half ago or so Andrew did an experiment with some fry. We raised half the batch with aged tap water (normal for us) and the other half with RO/tap water mix. Didn't really see a big difference in them.

I would like to know when someone has a hugh spawn 150+ do they split them up into different tanks? Mom with some, dad with the others?

We have a gold diamond male that is very aggressive when he has fry. I'm scared to put my hand in the tank because he hits me with his tail and bites me. lol

I would like to learn more about deformities. You get a great spawn but sometimes there is always 1 or two that are just really messed up. I wouldn't say this is due to care because the rest of the spawn is good. Any thoughts there? I'm thinking it must go back to the genetic line in the parents.

pcsb23

11-20-2007, 09:31 AM

Now I know theres more people out there that are breeding discus......so come on everyone step up and share...

Not done any recently, well this year in fact :(

Any one ever made a made mistake and ruined a batch of frys?
Did a w/c on 2 week old fry, just after removing the parents, hadn't heated the change water and basically killed the batch, that's probably the most stupid mistake I've made.

Ever cross a bad cross and not be able to find buyers,
yes a sooty PB to a RT, still it was a good learning experience.

or do a good batch and not find buyers. so far finding a buyer has been ok - so far!

Ever crowd the tanks so much that you runted half the fry? Ever have a group of fry that had deformities to high extent? In the early days, and also with the last batch had a lot of deformities, I suspect that was down to poor husbandry though, rather than overcrowding :o

Anyone that tries their hand at breeding is going to run into these things or other issues....and they are all an important of what goes into raising fry...

So...lets hear it!;)

-al
I'll just be glad to get back to breeding discus again, anyone want any angels btw ;)

From my limited experience I have found that if you slack in the husbandry during the first three or four weeks, the damage is irreversible. Fry are very fragile at this time, taking care over w/c's to match temperature and also making sure that the other parameter changes, like tds & ph, are close can prevent a lot of the issues I have come across. Keeping the tank as clean as possible is also important too imo.

The biggest challenge I face is feeding them, my job normally sees me out of the house for 13 or 14 hours a day, so it does make it challenging.

dishpanhands

11-20-2007, 10:16 AM

so far finding a buyer has been ok - so far!

My LFS only wants me to pay $5.00 a fish to help me to find my fish a home.LOL.I'm not kidding is the real funny thing...I have to take my fish out of town to sale, but I have a few places that love to buy off me..

thang45

11-20-2007, 12:49 PM

This is a great thread.

Three weeks ago I had my first successful spawn. The fries are doing well but I have noticed that one fry gill is sticking out. I think it is deformed.

I did some research and found that deformed fish are a common thing. To deal with this issue most people would put them down. As for me I cannot do this, I rather see them die naturally.

I would like to know what others would do in this situation.

brewmaster15

11-20-2007, 01:53 PM

Thang,
I can respect your thoughts here...but if you plan on breeding these fry one day when they are adults...you should cull for deformities or you risk passing on a defect to many future fry....Not all defects are genetic....but ones that are can really be a let down further down the road for you or someone you might pass some fish along to.

I would cull that fish.

hth,
al

thang45

11-20-2007, 02:20 PM

Apistomaster

11-20-2007, 04:51 PM

My LFS only wants me to pay $5.00 a fish to help me to find my fish a home.LOL.I'm not kidding is the real funny thing...I have to take my fish out of town to sale, but I have a few places that love to buy off me..

I have the same problem with the only dedicated fish shop in town and I too have to sell out of town to get a fair price($10 to $12) depending on their size.
The LFS just isn't willing to provide even basic discus care so unless a discus is rescued from them within ~48 hours after they get them the Discus become permanent runts.

I've only had one spawn close to 150, one of 147 fry. The pair did not seem bothered by those numbers but I did have to spread them out for grow out since all my(100) standard tanks at that time were home made 25 gallon all glass, LxWxH= 30x16x12 inches.
I was still in my teens and I did make many mistakes in those days(late '60's). I lost some entire batches from ammonia spikes resulting from completely cleaning my box type inside filters. I had to learn most things by trial and error.
No discus forums or even very good printed references were available in those years and I was breeding wild discus. I managed to raise and sell enough to not have to get a job while I attended the local Community College.

cschwaderer

11-20-2007, 05:15 PM

Fantastic thread and a lot of good information!

I've been trying for a couple years now to grow out 7-8" Discus with no luck. My batches that are between 19 months and 2 years are probably between 4-5.5". So I must be doing something wrong somewhere along the line.

I'm also wondering how much growth has to do with conditions and how much growth has to do with genetics of the line you are working with.

It seems like I get great growth out of the first month. I use a split-75, so 37.5 gallons on each side. I did an experiment by putting 1/2 of one batch in the 37.5 gallon tank and 1/2 in a 55 gallon tank. The only difference is the 37.5 gallon tank gets 80%+ water changes every day and the 55 gets an 80% water change ~every 2 days. I also keep the temp between 85-86 degrees.

I work at home, so I'm fortunate enough to feed the juveniles 5-7 times per day- a combination of frozen cyclops, daphnia, live baby brine (only for the first few weeks), and a 45% enhanced flake food crumbled up as well as finely chopped beefheart recipe. I travel about once a month, so from Mon-Fri the week I'm gone they get fed 3-4 times and no water changes (can't talk the wife into that!).

They seem to grow fairly quickly to about 1" (~6 weeks) then 2" at about 2.5-3 months, but then the growth slows pretty tremendously. At about 1 year, I'll have 3.5" fish, and 18 months about 4.5" - 5" fish. They are all very healthy, happy fish, pair off and spawn, etc - I've got pairs in my 135 that I have no room to put in their own tank!

But I must be doing something not quite right along the way or they'd continue along their max growth path, wouldn't they? Or is it possible that five inches is what they are going to do genetically?

Thanks,
Curt

Kenny's Discus

11-21-2007, 07:55 AM

What have you all found that it Really takes to raise Fry to a good size?

thanks,
al

Time, Effort, Patience, Love and SimplyDiscus.com.:D

Kenny

kaceyo

11-21-2007, 12:11 PM

cschwaderer

11-22-2007, 10:57 AM

Curt,
Sounds to me like you're not doing enough wc's. You're running alot of food into the tank so twice daily wc's is nescessary to keep the water from fouling. Also, going a week without wc's once a month is working against you. During the criticle first months staying on top of water quality is a must. You should get aprox 1" p/mo for the first three months if you're fish are going to grow big. You didn't mention how many fry you're putting into the tanks or if you'r culling, but when room to grow is a concern you need to cull heavy to give the remaining fry the best chance to grow large.
HTH

Kacey

Thanks - you are probably right. In my experiment I mentioned where I put 40 on the right side of a split-75 gallon and ~30 in a 55 gallon, I was doing daily water changes on the split 75, but probably a water change every 2-3 days on the 55. I think the juveniles in the split 75 are noticably bigger even though there are more of them in 37 gallons of water than the ones in the 55 gallons of water.

Another thing is that they seem less stressed in the 37.5 gallons of water all gathered together. How many would you keep in 37.5 gallons of water in the first 3 months of their lives if you were going to do 90% water changes daily? Does is matter as long as the water changes are that much and that frequent?

I also may not cull enough - I probably cull ~15% - 20%. Maybe 4-5% are deformaties of some kind or another. The other 10-15% are ones that simply get way behind the size curve. What percentages at what stages would you recommend? I start them in a 37.5 gallon after being removed from the parents, then can move them to either a 55 or 75 gallon when they get ~2". Does that sound right? Any recommendations?

Thanks,
Curt

What is good growth through the first 6 months? 1" at 8 weeks and an inch per month after that? Bigger? Smaller?

Thanks,
Curt

blueeyes

11-22-2007, 11:10 AM

What about the so called 4 week syndrome do people still encounter it and what measures do you take to prevent or cure it cheers Jim

kaceyo

11-22-2007, 12:44 PM

Curt,
The # of fish in a given amount of water varies for me. I don't think you can pin down particilar #'s of fish p/gal as they change so quickly. Strong fry can take a little more crowding, increasing wc's and tank maint will allow more fry to be kept. I am still learning to judge this for myself so I tend to cull heavily or start selling sooner than I did at first. After seeing a few spawns deteriorate due to over crowding I'm getting the hang of it and haven't had that problem in awhile.
As for growth rate, one inch in 8 weeks is not good. They should hit 1 inch or very close to it in 4 weeks. An inch p/mo for the first three months is more like it.
Jim,
The best things you can do to avoid the various early pitfalls is to clean up the pair before spawning with a PP or FMG treatment. I prefure PP. Do daily wipe downs of the tank, multiple daily wc's and, once BBS are started, clean the sponge filter daily. These should keep things in good order.

Kacey

pcsb23

11-22-2007, 01:52 PM

What about the so called 4 week syndrome do people still encounter it and what measures do you take to prevent or cure it cheers Jim
Good question Jim, I used to think it was solely flukes that were responsible for this, I no longer believe that. I think a lot of it is down to bacterial infections and protozoa. It's one reason why tank cleanliness and success go hand in hand. You need pristine water when raising fry imo.

Elcid

11-24-2007, 12:56 AM

Hi Al :)

Thanks for your advise about the frozen newly hatched bbs. I wanted to expand my thought a little more. I mentioned that having live bbs available and at the right times the most important factor in raising fry because I have had the most success with it.

The problems with frozen and decapsulated is that they both tend to foul water relative to live bbs and even the slightest fouled condition causes complications in raising fry and can result in a full spectrum of issues including death.

Now, I feel that this condition can be abated with more frequent water changes or the use of chemical treatments but again I think this is not the best solution and keeping with feeding only live bbs is the best course of action. My babies have always eaten more and grown more quickly and without problems and it seems every time I've tried to find som lazier alternative I have been punished!

take care,
Sandeep

CliffsDiscus

11-24-2007, 03:38 PM

Angela,
Great write up, I'm going to print a copy and post it by my tanks.

Cliff

Rod

11-24-2007, 05:06 PM

I really think that any stress or problems that occurs to the fry in the first month often will ruin the batch....no proof of that, but its just been my observation.. Growth, health, uniformity and development wise...My best batches of fry are always those that have experienced no stress factors..

hth,
al

2 methods i generally use to raise fry. one is to remove the fry and place them straight into rearing tanks where they will not overcrowd for 10 weeks or so. I take fry at 6 to 10 days old, so very small, but they eat bbs within a minute of hitting the rearing tank and i believe are less stressed by being moved compared to larger fry. the fry are placed at approx 1 fish per 6 liters and there they stay until they are traded. This method is much easier on the w/c initially and allows for good growth and very even water paremeters as the tank is initially very understocked. My average rearing tank is 36" x 24" and only 30 fry go in. Initially 25% daily w/c are all that is required because the bio load is so tiny, as they grow however w/c levels will have to be increased. This imo grows the fastest, most healthy and even batches i do plus your not spending every spare minute doing w/c's. But this method takes an incredible amount of room. A 150 batch takes 5 x 3 foot tanks and 10 weeks, and many pairs spawn a few batches in a row so you can see how quickly the fry can overwhelm.

2nd method when i don't have a lot of room available is remove the pair to a community tank when the fry are 6 to 10 days and start them off in the breeding tank, for a 150 spawn this means 1 fry has less than 1 liter each. w/c up to 2 times a day ,whatever is required to maintain adequate conditions, and split the fry as they crowd out the tank too much. You are walking a tight rope with this method, less stable conditions, constant handling of the fry, a LOT of work. But it can also work very well. Takes up a lot less room.

There is one rule i like to follow when fry rearing and that is: it is better to have 20 great babies, than 100 culls. How much room and time do you really have?

jmt

Rod