Vertical swimming

[lybrasoft]

Hy ,

I did not change anything in my tank and today after feeding one of my pigeons started to swim arround the tank in vertical position. Two others are staying with their heads up similar to the spawning position. Did anybody experienced this ?
I tested my water and it is like always.
86 F, everything 0 (amm.nitrite,nitrate) ,Ph 6

Should i worry about this ?

Thanks guys !!

[Ardan]

This does not sound normal. I would do a wc, 50% and then
I would put some epsom salt in the tank at 2 tblsp/10 gal.

it may be they have an intestinal blockage. If it doesn't clear in a day or they get worse, let us know.

What did you feed?

did you do a wc? before or after this?

Ardan

[lybrasoft]

I do a daily 30 % water change. I fed them this morning with Hikari fbw. I cannot do a biger waterchange because of my container that holds only 30 g and the tank is 90.
I could do a bigger wc in 2 parts if you think it will be the best.

Thanks.

[Ardan]

30% per day is good:)

Is the ph stable? is that why you age water in the barrel? do you have chloramines or chlorine?

How many discus or other fish are in the tank?

Ardan

[lybrasoft]

Is the ph stable? The PH is 6 and stable.

is that why you age water in the barrel? It is straight RO.

do you have chloramines or chlorine? I belive the carbon filter removes the chloramines and chlorine

How many discus or other fish are in the tank? 4 5.5" Checkerboard pigeons

[Ardan]

It is straight RO.



If there are chloramines, the carbon filter removes the chlorine, but not the ammonia part of chloramine (chloramine = chlorine + ammonia)

Are you on well water or city water?
If you use straight RO, there are no minerals in the water. Discus do need some minerals. Do you add minerals, like RO right..?

Why do you use straight RO? Is there a problem with the tap water?

Sorry for all the questions, but the answers may help:)
beautiful tank too!

Ardan

[lybrasoft]

Are you on well water or city water? city water

If you use straight RO, there are no minerals in the water. Discus do need some minerals. Do you add minerals, like RO right..? I add 1 spoon of salt to 10 g

Why do you use straight RO? Is there a problem with the tap water? I use RO for low ph.
My ph in the last 3 months was the same 6.

A single mention to all this is that last night i stopped the wet dry filter overnight and left just the sponges.

[Ardan]

did you restart the wet dry filter today?

Ardan

[lybrasoft]

Are you on well water or city water? city water

If you use straight RO, there are no minerals in the water. Discus do need some minerals. Do you add minerals, like RO right..? I add 1 spoon of salt to 10 g

Why do you use straight RO? Is there a problem with the tap water? I use RO for low ph and usually but not every time mix a 5 gallon bucket of straight tap with 20 drops of prime.

My ph in the last 3 months was the same 6.

A single mention to all this is that last night i stopped the wet dry filter overnight and left just the sponges.

[Ardan]

we posted at the same time, don't know if you saw my last post


Did you restart the wet dry today?

Ardan

[lybrasoft]

Yes i did. I stopped it to replace the polyester fiber i use in it and to wash a 100 micron filter. I noticed i am out of polyester so i bought some today replaced it and started the filter again.

Do you think it could be that the w-d filter was not operating ?

[Ardan]

Ok
I think I see several possible problems that I have some recommendations for.

1.The wet dry was off and some bacteria died and were possibly introduced into the tank, internal bacteria can cause loss of balance....

2. Plain salt in RO does not give the necessary minerals the discus need
3. RO will not keep the ph stable in the very short term (the ph will move around as there are no buffers/carbonates)
4. adding some tap water was good:), but it must be constant all the time as to amount and this should be based on a set level of minerals (measured as ppm/ tds/ gh)

All of this is for stability

Now, my recommendations (don't panic)
1. I would use city water and prime for water changes(the prime will take care of chloramines and or chlorine. The city water will have some minerals. I would do a wc as soon as you can
2. I would get a gh test kit and measure the minerals so we know if the water is too hard (probably not) or too soft (this can lead to unstable ph)
3. I would get a kh test kit. this will let us know how stable the ph should be
4. I would not worry about a low ph, you don't need low ph except "maybe" for breeding
5. I would test the ph at the tap, then put some water in a bucket overnight and test the ph again. post both test results (we will check stability)
6. It is possible that bacteria are affecting the fish's swimbladder. If they do not clear up with epsom salt by tomorrow
I would get some Kanamyacin as soon as you can, they have it here and can be shipped fast http://jehmco.com/html/medications.html
7. after you have the med, let me know and I can give you dosage (it is best to measure it with a gram scale, but we can figure out tsp or tblsp with my scale as I have that med here also)

I don't think you need to use RO, but we will find out. you can get test kits at an lfs or online at places like here http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/pet_supplies.cfm?c=3578+4345

hth
post test results as you get them and keep us posted

Ardan

[lybrasoft]

I do have a Kh test and it is 1.

My city water PH it's usually 7 and after a rain drops to 6.8

I'll do all the steps and get back with the info tomorrow.

The thing is that if i use city water mixed with RO for this wc the ph will rise aprox with 0.5 . It this OK ?.

Thanks again

[Ardan]

ph going up is ok :) just use plain tap water, no RO (this will add minerals to the tank):) do a 30% wc

I think your tap ph is ok
the kh is a bit low, you may need to add crushed corals to the filter to help keep that kh up and the ph stable
you might want to pm April about the crushed coral, she is an expert with that:):)
do test the gh at the tap when you get a test kit:)

don't test the gh in the tank if you add epsom salt, it will throw off the test results. I would use epsom salt in the tank for a day, you can get it at walmart.... in the foot care section (even somegrocery stores have epsom salt by the health care products)
hth
Ardan

[lybrasoft]

You asked if i have city water or well water.
I plan to set up some tanks at one of my friends house and intended to do a research regarding the difference between well and city water since he has well water.
What is the main difference ? What would i need to do to prepare that water best.

Thanks

[Ardan]

Hi,
1. Often well water has a lot of CO2 dissolved in it and must be aged overnight with a pump going so that the CO2 can offgas (get out)
when this happens, the ph moves a lot, so the ph is not stable


2.Another thing is to test the kh and gh

3.there will not be any chloramines or chlorine in well water

4. I would test for ammonia and nitrites in the well water to be safe

Otherwise some people have great luck with well water:)

I would do one tank and see how it goes for a while though before doing a lot of tanks, just to be safe

hth
Ardan

[lybrasoft]

Things got worse. The fish eventually started to swim normal but all of them are acting verry skittish. For no reason suddenly they start to swim fast and hit themselfs hard to the bottom and to every side of the tank. Awful !!!!!!
This happened 3 times in one hour . Who knows when i was at work how many times. I inspected them after this and one of them had a part of his skin hanging .
I prepared the water and i am doing now a 50 % water change.
Aprox 50% ro +50% tap almost same ph.
I added 2 tablespoons of salt like you advised.

What is the exlplantion for this behaviour ???????????

I am telling you it was an awful experience watching the fish hitting himself so hard.

Please tell me if you heard about something similar.

[Ardan]

I added 2 tablespoons of salt like you advised.


Hi salt won't hurt, may help, but


you need "epsom salt"

are you going to use the kanamyacin?

I would test ammonia, nitrite again.
Maybe the bio filter is out of wack now.

hth
Ardan

[lybrasoft]

I am ordering the kanamyacin.
My water is perfect though everything is 0.

[Ardan]

I am ordering the kanamyacin

OK, I just finished weighing it out with my gram scale. I use 250 mg/10 gal, you have a 90 gallon tank. I found that "ONE Level TEASPoon" (don't mean to yell, but its important) 1 Teaspoon

is what you need for a 90 gallon . (2.25 grams)( I did it 3 times and it worked every time:))

Not a teaspoon that you eat with, but a teaspoon that you bake with. they are plastic, very cheap. (for measuring spices)

Do you have one or can get one?

So

1. do a 50% WC, Then add one teaspoon of Kanamyacin
wait 24hrs
repeat this wc and med

do this for at least 5 days in a row. If there is a little improvement or no improvement at all, continue for 5 more days for a total of 10 days.

if they improve after 5 days, you can discontinue the kanamyacin but keep doing wc's

important: this will most likely interrupt the bacteria in the biofilter, so keep doing wc's as I stated, even after you stop the med for at least a wk and then test for ammonia and nitrite

If you have questions or don't quite understand what I mean, just ask:):)

hth
Ardan

[dawncollette]

I don't want to hijack the thread but where does someone order kanamycin and what is it used to treat...I've seen it recommended several times and cannot find it anywhere ....or any info on it.
thanks,
dawn

[dawncollette]

if your water is perfect and you can't find a problem what are you treating??? It appears by the look in your nice clean and beautiful tanks that the discus have no place to hide, do you think providing them with a place to hide will help their behaviour....you said they are very skittish, is there alot of traffic around their tank?
they look healthy in pictures.
what do i know,
dawn

[Ardan]

what are you treating

His discus are headstanding.

Kanamyacin is for internal infections (which can cause headstanding) his filter was off for quite a while and then was turned back on , this "possibly" released bad stuff into the tank , with all the symptoms its a good possibility. (3 discus doing it)
ordered at www.jehmco.com (http://www.jehmco.com)
hth Dawncollette

Ardan

[lybrasoft]

I agree with Ardan. Something has to be wrong. They act too strange. Today they hardly touched the food. I have to take action like Ardan said before something wrong happens. I agree though that they look good . I took good care of them. WC every day and fed them 5 times/day to grow fast. Siphoned the bottom 2 times a day to keep the tank clean and so on.They still look ok for now but i am afraid that if they have this internal infection in time they will get weaker and weaker.

[Ardan]

Just a note,
Headstanding, tailstanding is difficult to cure.

It may or may not be cured

Ardan

[lybrasoft]

What is headstanding , tailstanding ???????

[Ardan]

What is headstanding , tailstanding




swim arround the tank in vertical position. Two others are staying with their heads up similar to the spawning position

Your description where they have their head up as in a spawning position describes tail standing.
If the head is pointed down that is headstanding.

Is this not what your fish are doing?


Ardan

[phidelt85]

What is headstanding , tailstanding ???????


Headstanding = swimming with head in a downward position or looking down.

Tailstanding = swimming with tail in a downward position or looking up.

[lybrasoft]

It is not headstanding or tailstanding. None of these. The fish just freaks out and hits himself to the glass. After this he lands on his orizontal at the bottom. After a few seconds he slowly starts to move his gills and after one minute he is ok and swimming fine like nothing happened.
Now. One of them somehow yesterday i guess he hit himself real bad because he could not stay on his vertical any more and was shakeing at the bottom so i introduced him in a 10 g tank. He looked he will not survive the night but this morning he was in the corner of the tank on his vertical and did not moved since than. I tried to feed him with colorbits but he did not moved. What should i try to feed him ?

[lybrasoft]

Could it be the whirling disease ?
What is the cycle of this parasite ?
I am trying to eliminate some possible causes.

[Ardan]

I guess I am confused as in your first post you described headstanding , tailstanding. That is usually bacterial.

If it is not that, then it could be anything, not necessarily bacteria.

Could be light/shadow problems or water problems.

I would not necessarily treat with antibiotic in that case, I would first straighten out the water as in my earlier post. They need minerals and stable ph. Not straight RO.

Whirling disease is not what you are describing. It is more skittish, fright..

If you have started kanamyacin, do Not stop until after 5 days. You don't want resistant bacteria by stopping too soon.

hth
Ardan

[lybrasoft]

I had to separate one of the fish that really freaked out and moved him in 10g tank. He semmed to do better but tonight i noticed a big white "something" on his forhead. I removed it easily with my hand. I smelled it and it stink real bad. Something sticky like silicone just that it was soft. I will post some pictures tomorrow.
I did not start any treatment yet because he seemed to be better.
Ps. He did not eat nothing since i moved him.

[jeep]

To get back to the original issue, you should stop using straight RO and switch to city water. Discus don't need low ph- they need stabile ph. An RO system should not produce low ph, it should produce neutral ph which is 7.0. RO water also does not have any buffers so wide swings in ph can occur easily.

Also, I have read these exact symptoms before and it was from someone who used straight RO water. Switching to tap water, or adding a recipe of minerals and salts corrected the problem almost immediatly...

[lybrasoft]

I already started to mix it 50% with tap.
Here is the pic.

[Ardan]

Hi,
If that is how its swimming constantly, it is headstanding and I would use the kanamyacin in addition to the straight tap water with prime added.

What is your gh?

Did you measure the ph after letting it sit in a bucket overnight? (check ph stability)

Ardan

[lybrasoft]

Try zoom this picture i attached. Do you see that white film on his head ?

[Ardan]

Personally I would use the kanamyacin.

hth
Ardan

[lybrasoft]

I already ordered it. I just wanted to share this picture with you.
Hopefully it will be not too late.

[lybrasoft]

By the way the lady from Jehmco said that i need 1 teaspoon for 20 gallons ????
This is much more than your calculations.

[Ardan]

1 teaspoon per 20 gal = over 1000mg / 10 gal


I have seen it used this way in a book I have. I have never used it that high.

I don't over use antibiotics if I don't have to.

I have doubled the first dose if the disease is advanced by time I get meds.

You can follow her directions if you wish.

Ardan

[lybrasoft]

I wanted to ask you what dosage do you recommend .
How many miligrams/ 10 g ?

[Ardan]

I use 250 mg/10 gal,

Ardan

[lybrasoft]

Do i have to stop the wet/dry filter when i a medicate the fish ??

[Ardan]

No, don't stop any filters.
Do 50% wc every day.

The good bacteria in the filters may be impaired somewhat from the med, but will rebound quite rapidly once the treatment is over, so keep the filters going.

Keep the tank very clean, wipe the insides of the tanks with paper towel ever day or 2 days.

Make sure no food is left laying around as this will add to a possible ammonia/nitrite problem.

Good luck to you:)

Ardan

[lybrasoft]

Thanks. I added the medicine before i posted the last time. I will keep you updated as soon as i have something new. Keep your fingers crossed for me.

Thanks a lot for your support.