Ready to give up

[chaznsc]

Hello,
We set up a tank for discus about 10 months ago. We let it cycle with mollies for 2 months. Added 3 medium size discus, which seemed fine for a while. Over the last three of months we have lost 2 of the three. No visible warning signs, just a dead fish one morning.

My water has no measurable amonia, and the PH measures at 6.4. 45 gallon tank filstar xp3 filter, heater set to 80 degrees.

Should I give up and chalk this up to my lack of ability to keep them alive?

chaz

[reelay0]

Welcome to Simply Chaznsc!

Could you take a little time to fill this form out? It will allow the members to help you out with your question. The more details the better!

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?t=38545

Don't give up! The fish are too beautiful!

[chaznsc]

DISEASE QUESTIONNAIRE


Problem

1. Please explain the problems with your fish/when and how they started

FISH ARE JUST UNHAPPY LOOKING. 2 OF THE THREE HAVE DIED. THEY SEEMED HAPPY, BUT MAYBE NOT AS GOOD AS THE FISH STORE'S





2. Symptoms (i.e. turning dark, excess slime, not eating, clamped fins, flashing, darting, clamped gills, white/yellow/green poop, hiding, headstanding or tailstanding, white on tips of fins, rotting or fungus, blisters/ white zits on fish, bloated, cloudy eyes, wounds)

NO SYMPTOMS, OTHER THAN DEATH. THE REMAINING FISH SEEMS LETHARGIC, UNHAPPY, NOT DEAD LOOKING, BUT DROOPY.




3. What medications/ treatments that you have already tried and results. Include dosages and duration of treatment.

NONE



Tank/Water

4. Tank size and age, number and size of fish

45 GALLONS, APPROX 10 MONTHS OLD. ONE REMAINING DISCUS AND 2 CORY CATS

5. Water change regime/ how long has tank been running/ bare bottom or gravel/ do you age your water?

MONTHLY WATER CHANGE, GRAVEL BOTTOM. I DONT AGE MY WATER


6 Parameters and water source;

- temp 80

- ph 6.4

- ammonia reading 0

- nitrite reading 0

- nitrate reading NO IDEA

- well water NO

- municipal water YES

7. Any new fish/plants added recently - NO

OBVIOUSLY, I HAVE FAILED THESE FISH, I HAVE OTHER TANKS, SO THE DISCUS ARE NEW, BUT IM NOT BRAND NEW TO TANK KEEPING.

[mikesmac]

Hi Chaz,

Just real quickly the thing that jumped out at me was the temp set at 80 degrees. I tell everyone that the absolute minimum temp should be 82, preferably at least 84, but NEVER below 82. 80 degrees for Discus is just asking for problems IME.

Mike

One other thing...having the thermometer set at 80 doesn't mean that's what the temp is. Depending on the type of thermometer / wattage / ambient temp (are you in a cold weather area) the temp might not even be 80 degrees. I know those of mine that aren't on a separate controller have to be adjusted when the seasons / ambient temps change.

[chaznsc]

Hi Chaz,

Just real quickly the thing that jumped out at me was the temp set at 80 degrees. I tell everyone that the absolute minimum temp should be 82, preferably at least 84, but NEVER below 82. 80 degrees for Discus is just asking for problems IME.

Mike

I can work on that. I feel like an idiot. How often do you feed yours things like blood worms?

[brewmaster15]

Hi,
I don't think you should give up, but you may want to re-think how you do your discus tank...

some suggestions

1) temp... 80 is too low ...shoot for 84-86 for juveniles
2) gravel... remove it... try raising them in bare bottom tanks until you are more experienced with them
3) numbers... they do best in groups... 4-6 or more
4) Source... you don't mention where they came from but be very sure to chose a reputable breeder or importer.
5) read the back pages of the beginner board here...theres alot of info there...
6) ask lots of questions.

Thats what comes to mind immediately, others here can add to that I am sure.:)

Few people start discus and get it right the first time... I definetly didn't:) !!! If you enjoy them and want to succeed, theres plenty here that can help!

hth,
al

[White Worm]

Monthly water change? What does this mean? how much water do you change and exactly how often? May be alot of your problem.

[mikesmac]

Hi Chaz,

I feed most of mine bloodworms pretty much everyday, some of the larger ones don't get them though. After re-reading your post I actually noticed a few things .....

#1 - as Al said.... gravel isn't so good, especially if only doing monthly water changes. Nitrate buildup is not something that Discus like. Try running a bare bottom tank and you'll be amazed at how much crap a fish will produce....every time it eats. Multiply that by a month and you'll understand why a Discus doesn't like that water.

#2-One other thing that I know caused problems for me a looong time ago and was not aging my water. Discus like things to be stable (but clean). Not aging your water when doing water changes can cause major fluctuations depending on what it is like coming out of your tap. It's been stated many times here... test your water fresh out of the tap...let it sit with a heater & air stone for 24 hours and re-test it. If it hasn't changed...great, if it has.... dependng on how much of a change, it may be necessary to age your water in order to keep Discus. Some people don't have to.... I do (I wish my tap water ph came out at a 6.4!)

Mike

[chaznsc]

Is my PH ok? What about using PH BUFFER? I bought it at the LFS, its a white powder.

[White Worm]

If it is stable at 6.4, it is fine. If it fluctuates alot when you do your water change, you should store and age it 24 hours. You have other issues to look at here.

[lybrasoft]

Two problems from the first look:

1. The temperature is very low for discus. at least 84-86 for juvi.

2. You need more water changes. At least 50 % every week.
You are facing some serious nitrate bildups !!!!!!!!

I would change 50% tap water treated with prime every week at least. This is below minimum requrements to keep the fish healthy.

I do 50% wc every day for 4 5 inch fish in a 90 g tank and still i am not content with the growing process.

What filration do you have here ?

[Dolphin Dip]

i'd up the water change regimen. i change my water almost every day. i'd also up the temp. to at least 84. but i'd say getting higher quality fish initially is the biggest problem solver.

[2sybs]

All of the above... particularly temp and water changes. (I do 50% every other day)
Filstar xp3 should give you plenty of filtration for a 45 though if you go with a BB you might add a sponge filter also. (I am using a XP2 on a 75 and with wC everything is fine)
I noticed nobody really answered your PH question, 6.4 is great, BUT, Are you using that PH buffer to lower it? discus do fine at higher levels in spite of anything you lfs tells you. just slowly raise it to whatever you tap water is and they will be fine. what they do not like is sudden changes and adding more chemicals to you water is rarely a good thing.
My lfs told me they needed lower PH to be healthy and have brighter colors etc...
So I was using buffers to keep it down, well I decided to stop and the first WC I did not add anything but Prime and my fish were very unhappy so I quickly added the buffers and since I have been adding less and less over a period of a couple of weeks till I was able to just skip it altogether and my fish look great even though the PH is now up at 7.9 - 8.0
Ray

[mikel]

Hi Chaz: I have a tank very similar to yours, except it is a breeder, and I have 7 of these fish, at juvenile age, with 5 rummy nose tetras. I started my tank 4 months ago, and my fish seem to have settled onto my routine.

I would do the following for your tank...

1) Since it is a 45 gallon, you should have no problem changing at the very least 1/3 of the water EVERYDAY...preferably more. I do 50-75% change everyday for my juves...they are incredibly dirty, and eat like a pig. So you can imagine how much crap comes out of their bhind. Use a siphon, and do a good job of it each day. Good housekeeping is half the journey with these guys. Keep the glass clean, and wash the filter pads without destroying the good bacteria colonies.

2) Get rid of any gravel....I know it may not look as nice, but you either do this, or deal with sick/dead fish. With a barebottom tank, you can siphon all of the poop anytime, and you can also take close inspection of poop when needed (for disease check). Believe me, it will make life easier for you and your young fishies. You can get a nice driftwod for a centerpiece, but that might be a danger for a freaking discus. I use a nice size terra cotta pot, get some bio-loaded gravel, and planted some low-light loving, high-temp tolerating plant (crep something? ) They grow nicely in the pot with two reflectors light lamp on top. Discus can hide behind the pot if they wish, but they never do. They can also chew on the green if they wish, and they do. My fish spend most of ther time at the front, asking for food.

3) Buy two good submersible heaters, you can use the 150 watt or the 200 watt. Two is better than one, because you have backup. Set both to 86 F horizontally, and get a good digital thermometer that gives accurate reading. Check your temp three times a day..morning, noon, night to make sure the heaters are all working well.

4) Feed a variety of food, frozen and pellet that sinks...make sure you siphon all uneatened food left after 5 minutes. Feed at leaset three times a day.

5) I would check the ph of your tap, but also check the ph of your tank. If they are a little different, it's ok. Use only water conditioner like Amquil + or Prime generously to make sure all toxins are gone/neutralized...then fill directly into tank, making sure the water is generally of the right temp at 86 F (adjust the tap) of course. Dont sweat the ph buffer etc etc etc. I used to go nuts doing it, until a wise expert from here told me how silly it was to do so. It's all unnecessary, in my opinion. Your fish will adjust to your condition, so long as you maintain some sort of consistency.

6) Use straight salt at 1 tablesppon per 10 gallon to help new fish and old fish under stress. Stock Metro in pill form, as well as Quik Cure (or Prezi cure) and epsome salt. Look at the disease treatment section of this great site for a list of common ailment and follow directions closely.

7) Buy healthy fish, and always quarantine in another tank for a good 3 weeks for any new addition.

[Elite Aquaria]

Chaz,

Don't give up my friend. Keeping discus is not as hard as some may lead you to believe. I am sure if you get some quality fish from a reputable breeder and follow the tips listed above you will have no problems keeping discus. One thing I notices that not sure if others pointed out was that I do not like to mix my discus with other pet shop fish until after a long QT period. I noticed that you cycled your tank with some mollies...

[chaznsc]

Several of you have mentioned good stock. My LFS is my only local source for fish. He is an experienced keeper and I assume he is getting these from reputable sources. His fish look great and he is not a "petsmart" sort of operation.

Should I be considering an online source?

Thanks for all the help, I am working on the tank now.

chaz

[Don Trinko]

The 2 big things are temp and water quality. With the gravel you should vacumn the gravel at every water change. Water change varies with the bioload. I change 40% twice a week.( bioload of 1 discus per 7 g of water) Many change more than this and most would recoment 10g of water per discus.
I also age my water to remove clorine and heat it to tank temp before adding. ( rubber garbage can with regular submersable fish tank heater) They are buitifull fish and they do require more care than most other fish but it is not rocket science, just clean water, correct temp and a variety of food. Don T.

[mikel]

Discus sweat and glory...definitely worth it, especially when they unexpectedly spawn for you...then you're going down a whole different road. mike:):)

[chaznsc]

I would like to thank you all for the helpful input. I was so afraid people would say, you moron, stick to goldfish LOL. It means a lot to have so many of you to help me out on this.

chaz

[brewmaster15]

Chaz,

Almost everyone here has stood in your shoes when they started...even the ones that might have forgotten it!:)

Where are you located?

-al

[chaznsc]

I am in South Carolina.

[FishLover888]

Yep, I totally agree on Don T said, clean water (at least 50% WC twice a week in your case, 3 times or more if you can manage), correct temp (I'll set at 86F to start with) and a variety of food (frozen foods and flakes 2 to 4 times a day).

I would add healthy stock to start with and you will be a happy discus keeper.

[fredox]

Chaz,

Don't give up. The guys here know what their talking about. I've only stopped keeping Discus as I can't give them the time and dedication they need. When I get my own place I'm going to setup a Fish House for them but until then I'm going to lurk around here learning as much as possible.

I think the best bit of advice I've seen on this forum is that the only stupid questions are the ones you don't ask. So ask away.

Byron

[chaznsc]

I think my biggest hurdle is finding good quality stock.

[FishLover888]

Try order on line. I got all mine on line.

All the sponsors here have good rep. They are bit more expensive than what you can get from other on line source but the quality of their stocks pays off in the long run. Try to contact one of them that is close to you so you can make a trip to get your discus. Otherwise, order on line is fine with one of them here too.

If you order on line, always ask for pictures showing the actual discus and their parents. That way you have a better understanding of what you get.

Most (if not all) of the sponsors give you live garrentee so you should be fine. Be aware that the S&H charge can be around $60 to $80 depending on the seller. You are better off ordering more than a few to reduce the cost.

[Don Trinko]

There are reputable breeders all over this country. Many of them will let you come out and see their fish.. It's worth a 100/200 mile trip and bringing them home in your vehicle is easier on them then UPS! Don T.