Could be problems brewing

[KJoFan]

One of my albino cobalts is just seeming a bit off lately. Not enthusiastic about eating which is out of character and just kinda listless. I was giving it a good look a little bit ago and notice it's got a slightly swelled stomach, however the area right in front of that seems kind of pinched. Similar looking to bloat but not as severe, so I don't really think that's it. But I've been wrong before. :) When I fed bits just a little while ago it wasn't very interested in eating. It tried one or two and spit them back out. There's 4 other discus in the tank with it and they don't really seem to have anything wrong, although it's hard to tell because there's one that rules the tank and keeps the rest at bay. It isn't clamped or facing the back or any of that but it looks kind of thin to me overall. So apparently something may have been brewing for awhile and I just didn't notice the extent until now.

So, I know that's not much to go on and aside from upping the temp is there anything I can/should be doing? They get a daily water change of 50% so parameters should be pretty well in line.

I have had at least one discus in any given tank at any given time with white poo for awhile. I can never seem to totally get rid of it. I'll up the temp in the tank I notice it in and pretty soon it's gone but it seems to travel around. I figured it was just a bacterial infection but maybe something else is lurking in my tanks?

And with that, I seek some expert advice. :)

[tonymaccs]

Hi Karen,
I dont consider this to be expert advice, but recently one of my tanks with miscellaneous adults had the same symptoms you describe. It crept up on me over a few weeks, not suddenly.
Fecal microscope slide showed something definite which (with Rod's help, many thanks) was confirmed as Capillaria eggs. I had initially discounted worms as I had treated about three months earlier.

Two days after commencing oral treatment with Panacur, the change was dramatic. Appetites returned, and activity and colour improved. I followed the Panacur treatment with Levamisole and Prazi.

I am not suggesting you have the same problem, but recommend you start doing some more diagnosis and elimination. Have you got access to a microscope? Do you treat for worms?

Tony

[KJoFan]

Hi Tony,

Any advice, expert or not is appreciated. :) You may be on to something here. Unfortunately I don't have access to a scope (I wouldn't know what I was looking at if I did probably). I've had more than one tank off their appetites for awhile despite the upped temps in some tanks. They all eat just not anxiously.

I don't treat for worms unless I see a problem (like now maybe?) and I'd say 90% of my fish haven't been treated for worms, at least by me. Now, if I could somehow be more confident of the problem I'm facing so I knew where to start in treating it.

I certainly don't want to inadvertantly pass it on to my challenge fish, so if i can nip this thing soon I'd be much happier. :)

[KJoFan]

Alright so from researching on here further I've deduced that...chances are they have worms. I've seen the hollow/whitish poo on several for awhile and sometimes it's yellowish in tint and from what I've read that's an indication of worms. So, I got some levamisole. I'm not 100% clear on how much to dose but it seems like 2 teaspoons/10 gallons of the solution I'll make from this should work.

[jeep]

Karen, the first thing I do when one of my fish seems a little "off" is to crank the heat up to 90-93 and add salt. Works almost every time...

[KJoFan]

Generally cranking the heat cures things for me too, I haven't medicated in awhile as I prefer not too but this time, it just wasn't doing it for me. I went ahead and tried the levamisole on probably half the tanks since I can only waterchange about that many at a time and the treated ones will need it tomorrow. The fish seem slightly freaked out after the medication but...maybe it's just me that's freaked out and over analyzing them. They'll have lights out soon so hopefully they'll mellow and things will be well tomorrow. I'll probably check them once more before bed just for peace of mind. :)

[tonymaccs]

Around 2 ppm is good for levamisole in-vitro. If it is worms you will notice the difference quickly.
Tony

[Ardan]

I use a gram scale as the dose is 2ppm = 8 mg/gal (this is what I use)

hth
Ardan

[Kindredspirit]

the first thing I do when one of my fish seems a little "off" is to crank the heat up to 90-93 and add salt. Works almost every time...

For how long, Brian? About a week?

[jeep]

For how long, Brian? About a week?

I usually go for about 10 - 12 days. I usually notice an improvement about 8 days after treatment is complete...

[KJoFan]

Ok, so I did the levamisole treatment last night, they'll all get a water change here in a couple hours. I noticed this morning several of them have quite bloated bellies now so I added epsom salt but haven't really noticed a change yet. What is causing the bloated abdomens?

[sungminee]

i had the same problem with my discus. (bloat)
and had white feces.
i tried to dewormed it with metrozole. and it seemed to be fine after a week. however, i had other one with cloudy eye & fin rot after that treatment was done. but, that was fungus problem. (please refer to my case it's right here on one of these thread)
now the one that had bloat problem is fine (eating and dropping dark feces) I hope that helps.

[pcsb23]

Ok, so I did the levamisole treatment last night, they'll all get a water change here in a couple hours. I noticed this morning several of them have quite bloated bellies now so I added epsom salt but haven't really noticed a change yet. What is causing the bloated abdomens?
Most likely dead worms given that you have treated with levimasole. Hopefully the epsom salts will help purge them.

[KJoFan]

That's what I figured Paul, which is why I added the salts. I didn't really see any improvement last night so redosed the salts after water change, hopefully it will help. I really don't think I want to use this stuff again though, none of them had the best reaction to it. I had one lying on the bottom as of last night, I haven't checked yet today on it. The rest just acted freaked out and as if they couldn't see well. Bumping into one another or the sides of the tank. I bumped the tank a couple time with the water changer last night and they all freaked out and tried to jump out. One has a banged up eye now, I assume from crashing into something. I guess I'll count myself into that small group that has a bad reaction to this stuff. :(

[pcsb23]

That is a bad reaction for sure, I think we run the risk with all drugs though to some extent. Hopefully after a w/c or two they will settle down again.

[KJoFan]

yeah I think if I want to continue to de-worm the rest of them I'll use the piperazine I have, it should be milder right? The one that was down last night was dead this morning when I checked. I think the rest will pull through though after another water change. I am a bit concerned about the swollen bellies not going away though...any suggestions on that?

[Ardan]

If the bellies are still swollen after a day of epsom salt at 2 tblsp/10 gal, I would consider using Kanamyacin as internal infection could set in from blocked intestine.

hth
Ardan

[KJoFan]

I only did 1 tblsp/10 gal, maybe I should up it to two and see if that helps. If not, I'll probably look at doing the antibiotic.

[KJoFan]

besides the kanamyacin what other antibiotics would be a good choice?

[Ardan]

I prefer kanamyacin for internal bacteria.
I have seen others have success with maracyn 2 (minocycline), but I have not used it.

hth
Ardan

[pcsb23]

besides the kanamyacin what other antibiotics would be a good choice?
furan 2 if you can get it is very good too.

[kaceyo]

That seems like an awfully severe reaction for levamisol. Are you sure you dosed correctly?

Kacey

[KJoFan]

Nope, not sure I dosed correctly at all. But I did read that you should be able to overdose up to 10x and not have issues and I'm sure I didn't overdose by that much. I know there were 18 some odd grams of powder that mixed into water making 500mL of solution. I dosed that at 2 teaspoons/10 gallons. Not sure if that tells anyone how much they actually received.

[phidelt85]

Karen, how large is the tank? Let me see if I understood you correctly. You made a stock solution of levimasole by dissolving 18g of levimasole into 500mL of water? Is that right? Then you took 2 tsp/10gal of this stock solution to dose your tank?

[KJoFan]

correct. 40 gallon tanks.

[phidelt85]

Based on the numbers you gave me, I calculate that you treated the tank at 9.5ppm

[KJoFan]

Hmm, I was just trying to calculate it out and figured around 9mg/gallon and Ardan said he does 8mg/gallon so...it shouldn't have been that far off....:confused:

[phidelt85]

For a 2ppm dosage you would need to add 8.4mL of your stock solution to the tank. 1tsp is equal to 5ml, so you should be alright just adding 2tsp of your stock solution to the tank which would give you a 2.4ppm concentration in your tank.

[KJoFan]

Oh wait...you mean 2 tsp total or per 10 gallons?

ETA: You mean total...so I overdosed them by 4 times....darn. But evenso...I did read you can overdose 10x without harm...

[phidelt85]

Yea, total. I have read that as well, so I would think you'd be alright, but you never know.

[kaceyo]

I have read that too. Based on a 2ppm dose you can overdose up to 10 x w/out problems, but I don't know what that means. Sounds like you should be OK on that account tho.

Kacey

[KJoFan]

Well for the rest of my tanks I'll do the proper dosing and when/if I redose in a couple weeks. Now...what do I do about the few that have the huge bloated bellies? Epsom salts for 24+ hours hasn't done a thing.

[tonymaccs]

Hi Karen,
Sorry to see you've had more problems. Whilst the lethal dose for levamisole is reported at much higher levels, I haven't seen discus specific studies and so caution is in order. It reaches max effect at 2ppm so there is no need to dose higher.
Out of my current collection of approx 100 discus, I have only one (a pigeon blood) that has a bad reaction at 2ppm and recovers after about 2 days. It is likely that at 10ppm or more there would be more aggravation.

If you are concerned about Lev for the follow-up, and also for treating the others that are still eating, give Panacur a try in food. I add just enough to colorbits to wet them, then let it soak for 30mins or so.

How is the bloating?

Tony

[KJoFan]

Heh well Tony I didn't intend to overdose them, but...I think they'll pull out of it. Hopefully without any more ill effects. The bloating isn't much better. It's only a few that have it...those being the ones I assume that had the worst worm problem. The epsom salts didn't seem to help any so I've left off that for now, I'm not sure what else to try other than hope they pass whatever's blocking them soon.

[KJoFan]

Here are two with the worst bloat:

http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c285/KJoFan/DSC05547.jpg
http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c285/KJoFan/DSC05548.jpg

[dawncollette]

Karen, do you feed flakes or frozen brine shrimp, both always help my discus pass poop a little easier than blood worms. I had two recently with bloat and dosed with 3 tablespoons of epsom salt per 10 gals for 2 days in a row and fed only flake and brine shrimp and they got better. keep us posted,
dawn

[Ardan]

I would definately try one of the antibiotics.


Ardan

[pcsb23]

Karen, if the bloating does not pass in another day or so an internal bacterial infection will very soon set in. These are very difficult to treat if not caught quickly. I would advise having some Kanamycin or Furan2 on hand. Fingers crossed you won't need it but.....

[KJoFan]

Hi Dawn, thanks for the suggestions. Unfortunately though they're off their feed from the medication still so not really eating anything. They don't necessarily seem to be suffering yet and I'd like to hold off a little on the antibiotic just because they haven't recovered from the levamisole treatment yet, but we'll see what today brings.

I don't have any kanamyacin but do have Furan2 so I will start in with that if needed.

[KJoFan]

Looks like the BD from the picture above is back to normal today, the one Leopard at least is still a bit bloated but I think it seems some better as well. So good news there.

[kaceyo]

I'd keep on with the Epsom Salts for now as it's the only thing I know of that will stimulate them to expell what's in them. Maybe raise the dose to 3 tbs/10gals. And if they do start to eat, go with FBS only at first.

Kacey

[KJoFan]

Ok, I'll redose the ones that need it, see if that helps. Thanks Kacey.

[KJoFan]

Seems they're doing better now, the bloat is gone. One is having troubles. Stays vertical, nose down as if it can't stay down. It's just in bad shape all around. Not sure what the problem is there but overall everything else is looking better.

[Ardan]

Stays vertical, nose down as if it can't stay down.

The swimbladder probably is not functioning properly due to either a blockage or internal infection.

Put it in a hospital tank and I would use epsom salt + kanacyn or a good internal antibiotic (furan or maracyn 2 ) jmo


It may get better on its own by wc's, but the risk of the internal infection could do it in rapidly imo

hth
Ardan

[pcsb23]

The swimbladder probably is not functioning properly due to either a blockage or internal infection.

Put it in a hospital tank and I would use epsom salt + kanacyn or a good internal antibiotic (furan or maracyn 2 ) jmo


It may get better on its own by wc's, but the risk of the internal infection could do it in rapidly imo

hth
Ardan
Agreed.

[alxjss]

Hi Karen. Sorry to hear about ur problems. Guess what??? I had the same problem w/one fish, who is still in the hospital btw.... When u get a chance u can read my thread. I treated w/epsom salts, w/c's out the ying yang, epsom salts, levamisole, maracyn 1 & 2, kenamiacyn, and now, he eats, poops little yellowish looking poop, sheds alot of slime and still has the great attitude. But not better yet. Note when this began and go back a wk. He's been sick for a long time.:(
http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?t=59699

[Kindredspirit]

poops little yellowish looking poop


Yellow poop can mean bacterial infection....

[pcsb23]

poops little yellowish looking poop

Yellow poop can mean bacterial infection....
It can also be because the fish hasn't eaten for some time. This fish has had an awful lot of medication recently and I would be tempted to give it at least a week with nothing more than good clean water and food. If it's still a picky eater try some live food.

[alxjss]

It can also be because the fish hasn't eaten for some time. This fish has had an awful lot of medication recently and I would be tempted to give it at least a week with nothing more than good clean water and food. If it's still a picky eater try some live food.

Hi Paul. I think he does have an infection. He has been eating cbw's and an occasional mouthful of b/h. I haven't used med's in a while. When i saw him eating, i haven't treated in over 3 wks. Maybe its time. Last treatment before euthinizing. This fish has been sick for a long time. Like i said, he is in good spirits tho, so its hard to do this.

[KJoFan]

Thanks for the suggestions guys, I assume he's just got some swim bladder problem like you were saying. I'm not sure I'll bother to treat him though, as he's kind of a cull anyway. Not sure it's worth the time, effort and meds to do anything about him. I'll keep on with the WC's and such and see if he comes around on his own. The rest seem to be getting better every day which is a good sign. The albino cobalt i was concerned about to start with seems interested in food some but still isn't really eating and is rather thin. :(

[alxjss]

Sorry Karen. I didn't mean to spark ur thread. I hope everything goes well w/ur fish. :o

[KJoFan]

no problem Eileen, I appreciate your directing me to your thread for further information. :) I

[KJoFan]

Any suggestions on the albino cobalt? It's interested in food but just not eating.

[pcsb23]

Karen if the fish with the possible swim bladder prob is still in the tank, well basically I would have removed it by now! No point risking it spreading a bacterial infection.

As for the albino cobalt try raising temps, or live food.

[KJoFan]

Well, the whole tank is basically a tank of culls and they will all probably meet their ends soon enough. :) If I see absolutely no improvement from it soon then I'm probably done with it.

I'll try raising the temp in the albino's tank, see if that helps. I don't think I'll go with live food for a couple reasons, one being I don't have any and it's a far drive to acquire some for me, second being I am wondering if perhaps my bacterial issues didn't start in the first place because of CBW's. I had fed them off and on for quite awhile and all was well but since I seemed to be having some bacterial issues off and on in any given tank at any given time, I am going to chalk it up to that as a possibility. So, until things get completely straightened out I will probably stay off the live foods. Hopefully just raised temps and FBW will bring it around.

If that shouldn't do the trick, what should I look towards next? I'd hate to lose this one.

[pcsb23]

Hopefully just raised temps and FBW will bring it around.

If that shouldn't do the trick, what should I look towards next? I'd hate to lose this one.
I hear you about the tank of culls.

As for the albino, provided it hasn't gone too far and is well in itself (no infection) then it should start to eat soon enough, if it is being harassed by other fish then it may need some R&R time. Feeding just after a w/c can work too.

[KJoFan]

There is an RGD in the same tank that kind of rules the roost, especially at feeding time, chasing the rest off (3 other RGD's and the albino). The RGD's started out much smaller than the albinos but now this one has outgrown them all. Maybe, if it doesn't start eating, the thing to do will be to remove the RGD so the rest can have some peace for awhile. I'm hoping it's well, but the thinness of it has me wondering. Thanks for your assistance Paul. :)

[KJoFan]

Ok, it's been a week and there's still no change with the albino. It's just turning into a bag of bones quite frankly. The temp has been up for awhile, doesn't make a difference. I removed the bully from the tank, still nothing. It hides out alot and has no interest in food.

suggestions on what to try next are greatly appreciated!

ETA: It got the levamisole treatment and did fine with that, but didn't spark an appetite afterwards.

[Ardan]

Maybe metro, but I would try kanamycin, due to the problems they have had....jmo:)

hth
Ardan

[KJoFan]

Well, this one didn't have any of the bloating/blockage or anything after the lev. treatment. Nor do I have any kanamyacin. :o

[Ardan]

I was concerned about the possible bacterial problems in general (they were fed cbw?) You could try furan 2 or maracyn 2 (minocycline)
Metro may work too.

It is a guess, just based on the issues in the tank.

Some salt may help it deal with stress also. Just 2 tblsp/10 gal

hth
Ardan

[KJoFan]

They have been fed CBW in the past, no longer as I thought that was probably the source of my issues to begin with.

I have metro and furan 2. Maybe I will QT it and try one of those.

The rest actually seem to have come around, at least I haven't seen any white poo like I did before the lev treatment and all are eating. Some better than before, some same as ever. Still have my tank full of scared leopards. :)

[pcsb23]

Difficult to know for sure without running some tests which will mean sacrificing a fish and cost a lot too. You could hit them or the non eater with an antibiotic, it may work, but I wouldn't pin your hopes on it. I don't disagree with Ardan's reasoning, I just woner if this one fish is worth the trouble? If it is razor backed then ime it's too far gone and the humane thing to do is end its suffering. Sorry, don't mean to be harsh.

[KJoFan]

I understand Paul. Seeing as how it was a high $ fish I'd hate to lose it or have to put it down, but it's already behind on growth so I don't even know if it would be worth it to even make the effort at this point. It's a hard call to make right now, seems like it's at the point where it could go either way. By that I mean, get lucky enough to treat successfully and it could turn out decent with extra care, or not treat or treat unsuccessfully after which I'd say my window of opportunity is probably lost. Maybe I will try to post a pic of it and you can give me your opinion on it.

[KJoFan]

Pictures of the fish in question:

http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c285/KJoFan/DSC05730.jpg

http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c285/KJoFan/DSC05729.jpg

http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c285/KJoFan/DSC05728.jpg

http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c285/KJoFan/DSC05726.jpg

[pcsb23]

Karen,

Although the leading edge is ridgebacked it's not quite razor backed - Yet!

It does not show any real signs of infection that I can see, always difficult with albinos though. No obvious clamped fins, attitude seems ok from the pics, eyes look ok too and the colour looks ok.

This is a guess so take it as one, I think it could be flagellates but my worry is there may be an internal bacterial infection too. Metro for the flags, furan for the bacterial.

I'd give the fish one more try btw!

[KJoFan]

It does tend to hide out in the back a little but it also comes out to the front. I can dose the metro and furan together, right?

I think what I'll do is remove it to a 20 QT tank and treat, with increased temps.

How long of a metro treatment should I administer?

[pcsb23]

I'd caution the increased temps just now. If this is bacterial then they may not help any. 84f will be fine with metro, I no longer raise the temp when treating with it.

I would think you will need an extended course of metro, 10 days or so, because if it is flagellates they are most surely in the flesh of the fish by now.

I've never dosed furan and metro together so can't help there, sorry.

[KJoFan]

Well I put the albino in a QT tank this afternoon, dosed metro and left it alone. I came down tonight to do waterchanges and found it against the sponge filter pointed upwards but breathing still. I immediately did a 90% or so water change thinking it just couldn't handle the meds, shortly thereafter (like in 5 mins or so) it died.

I don't know if it just was too weakened to handle the stress of QT and medicating or what.

At least I tried though. Thanks Paul for the guidance on this one. Even if I'm still not sure exactly what went wrong. :)

[phidelt85]

Man, Karen, I'm really sorry to hear that. :(

[Ardan]

Sorry to hear about the loss Karen


Ardan

[Kindredspirit]

Karen I am so sorry! You certainly seem to be having some troubles lately.....:( I hope things get better!

[pcsb23]

Sorry it went bad Karen, the fish must have been very weak. I am not sure what went wrong either, it is very frustrating at times. You did the best you could for it.