Moving White Dots

[aquagal]

Just noticed this AM small, moving "white dots" all over the inside of the glass. I have a white sand substrate so at first thought it was sand...but they appear to be moving?

What on earth is it and will they hurt my discus? The discus appear fine -- eating well, look good, etc.

Any ideas?

[Graham]

they're harmless...a worm of some kind...good fish food

[aquagal]

Thanks Graham.

I was a bit surprised to see them...

[pcsb23]

Probably planaria, usually a sign of over feeding and/or under cleaning...if this is a new tank then sometimes it seems to happen that planaria have a show, then after a few weeks they go.

[aquagal]

I'm changing water now 40-50% every other day and the fish are eating everything. But, the tank is fairly new so maybe that's it...?

[dawncollette]

I got those in my 10 gallon community tank, got rid of them with a major gravel vaccum, cleaning sides, and large water change, then added ich medicine and that wiped them out. Worms just gross me out,
dawn

[Discus_adictus]

Most likely it's Planaria and they are harmless to discus. Frequent (daily) water change may solve the problem. :)

[GulfCoastDiscus]

A doze of PP or Formalin will illiminate most of them.:)

[Graham]

:antlers: Dan that's kind of like using a 12Ga to kill a field mouse....:antlers:

[GulfCoastDiscus]

:antlers: Dan that's kind of like using a 12Ga to kill a field mouse....:antlers:

IMO planeria is a sign of other things that might be brewing in the tank. I do 50% daily and don't feed beefheart and i still see planeria in the tank. IMO many things are not seen with the naked eye. It doesn't hurt to occasionally treat for parasites. I see it as treating dogs for freas on a regular basis. All living things are host symbiotically with parasites. A regular dose of formalin elliminates many issues like fungal and bacterial problems.

JMHO
daniel

[Graham]

These few ''worms are nothing more that a organic issue and in a new tank...it's nothing of any concern.

But you're taking about prophylactic treatments in the tank for a ''just in case'' problem. That's another story. There are parasites of many kinds and bacteria of many kinds in our tanks all the time. You can never get rid of them. They exist naturally there, with the fish's own immune system defending the fish. As long as we look after the environment they'll never be a problem

It's only when we allow things to deteriorate in the tank or stress the fish that they maybe able to overwhelm the fish and cause a problem

Do you occasionally take antibiotics just in case you might get a cold or a bacterial infection?....Should I have chemo treatments for the just in case....The answer is No, of course....then why would should we subject our fish and the microscopic critters, most of which are completely harmless, in our tanks to harsh chemicals and drugs when there is nothing wrong.

The American/Canadian Vet ***'s are trying to take away our ability to use antibiotics...the Brit's already have...for the massive abuse of them within the hobby. Years ago Tetracycline use to be a mainstay in the hobby, till it was so abused that all the bacteria that it affected became immune to it. Injectable Baytril was used quite well against Aeromonas infections in koi till everyone abused the crap out of it and now it's all but useless for anything major.

Salt, a very simple chemical, use to kill 7 or 8 different parasites, we're lucky if it kills Ich now and their are strains coming out of Florida that it won't kill.

Formalin use to work quite well on flukes; they laugh at it now....F&MG worked well on Costia and now there are strains where it doesn't affect them at all. Both Formalin and PP are oxidizers and oxidize everything in the tank, even at very low PPM doses, including the fish! Their gill lamellae are brunt every time we use it!

How many reports have you heard of Prazi not helping with flukes........

Sorry Dan but you hit a pet peeve.....No chems or meds, including salt, should be used unless there is a very obvious reason for there use and with the potential to have some affect on that obvious problem. The only prophylactic treatment should be good husbandry.......

Graham

[GulfCoastDiscus]

Hi Graham,
No offense here. I completely agree with the over use of anti-biotics. I too am against using anti-biotics. This is not what I am talking about.
Treating with an anti-parasitic is not the same as anti-biotics.
This is just my opinion. Our fish are placed in an enclosed environment. In the wild they won't have these issues because of the volume of water passing through. I believe when there is an outbreak of parasites in the tank or an abundant of microscopic organism whether harmless or not we as keeper must intervene. I believe we can never completely erraticate the parasites but we can control it. The same as our dog having freas or Fire ants on your yard. We can never completely erraticate it but we must control it otherwise we'll have them all over our house.

JMHO


These few ''worms are nothing more that a organic issue and in a new tank...it's nothing of any concern.

But you're taking about prophylactic treatments in the tank for a ''just in case'' problem. That's another story. There are parasites of many kinds and bacteria of many kinds in our tanks all the time. You can never get rid of them. They exist naturally there, with the fish's own immune system defending the fish. As long as we look after the environment they'll never be a problem

It's only when we allow things to deteriorate in the tank or stress the fish that they maybe able to overwhelm the fish and cause a problem

Do you occasionally take antibiotics just in case you might get a cold or a bacterial infection?....Should I have chemo treatments for the just in case....The answer is No, of course....then why would should we subject our fish and the microscopic critters, most of which are completely harmless, in our tanks to harsh chemicals and drugs when there is nothing wrong.

The American/Canadian Vet ***'s are trying to take away our ability to use antibiotics...the Brit's already have...for the massive abuse of them within the hobby. Years ago Tetracycline use to be a mainstay in the hobby, till it was so abused that all the bacteria that it affected became immune to it. Injectable Baytril was used quite well against Aeromonas infections in koi till everyone abused the crap out of it and now it's all but useless for anything major.

Salt, a very simple chemical, use to kill 7 or 8 different parasites, we're lucky if it kills Ich now and their are strains coming out of Florida that it won't kill.

Formalin use to work quite well on flukes; they laugh at it now....F&MG worked well on Costia and now there are strains where it doesn't affect them at all. Both Formalin and PP are oxidizers and oxidize everything in the tank, even at very low PPM doses, including the fish! Their gill lamellae are brunt every time we use it!

How many reports have you heard of Prazi not helping with flukes........

Sorry Dan but you hit a pet peeve.....No chems or meds, including salt, should be used unless there is a very obvious reason for there use and with the potential to have some affect on that obvious problem. The only prophylactic treatment should be good husbandry.......

Graham

[aquagal]

Dan--

I couldn't agree w/ you more...

[Graham]

''...Treating with an anti-parasitic is not the same as anti-biotics....''

Oh yes it is....The parasites are become immune to the typical chems that we rely on so when we really need them they are not there for us. There are all kinds of reports of Formalin, Prazi, Salt not doing what they use to do, for the simple reason the parasite is becoming immune to the chem...Why, because they are adapting to the continual use/abuse of the chem.

Using lower dose levels than what's recommended or using them when there is no reason to, just makes the problem worse.

Bacteria like Aeromonas or Columnaris thrive in crappy conditions...easy to look after...keep the system clean. Do you think that a shot of F or PP on one day is going to drop the CFU's for any more than that day if the system is dirty or the DOC's are high...you will never get rid of them. A clean system will keep the CFU's much lower than any shot of chem will.

Flukes are always on the fish! They only become a problem and increase thier numbers when the oppertunity arises and the fish is stressed. Nothing you can do to prevent, you can PP and use all the formalin you want but when the oppertunity arise so will they.

Saprolegnia is always in the air or water, it's an oppertunsitic secondary invader. You could nuke a tank with PP for a month and the second that something dies or there's an injury, it'll a invade.

You're living with a false sense of security if you think that using chems regularly is protecting your fish from parasites and or bacteria. You're doing more harm than good in the long term.

Good husbandry will take you a 100 times farther in protecting you fish than any abuse of a chem will

[GulfCoastDiscus]

I like to see these reports. You can say that about everything but we continue to battle these issues everyday. Try NOT treating your yard with Fire ant killer or your dog for fleas. Specially if you have kids. If you ever lived in a farm the animals are treated for parasites on a yearly basis. Parasites on our fish is the same.

I have over 60 tanks over 3000 gallons. I import 300 to 500 kilos every month. My experience and your experiece will differ. I keep everything clean. I do 50% waterchanges 2x a day.
I guess we can agree to disagree. This is why i like forums. We can provide different views on the same topic. I speak from my experience with keeping hundreds of fish monthly. My experience with many issues is not the same as the typical hobbiest. Having discus from different sources and making sure they don't contaminate each other is my single greatest issue.

I have a sop that i go through with all the fish that i get. I'm sure most ppl don't want to hear about them but i don't think anyone here likes to get fish that will potentially kill their other fish.

Again jmho.


''...Treating with an anti-parasitic is not the same as anti-biotics....''

Oh yes it is....The parasites are become immune to the typical chems that we rely on so when we really need them they are not there for us. There are all kinds of reports of Formalin, Prazi, Salt not doing what they use to do, for the simple reason the parasite is becoming immune to the chem...Why, because they are adapting to the continual use/abuse of the chem.

Using lower dose levels than what's recommended or using them when there is no reason to, just makes the problem worse.

Bacteria like Aeromonas or Columnaris thrive in crappy conditions...easy to look after...keep the system clean. Do you think that a shot of F or PP on one day is going to drop the CFU's for any more than that day if the system is dirty or the DOC's are high...you will never get rid of them. A clean system will keep the CFU's much lower than any shot of chem will.

Flukes are always on the fish! They only become a problem and increase thier numbers when the oppertunity arises and the fish is stressed. Nothing you can do to prevent, you can PP and use all the formalin you want but when the oppertunity arise so will they.

Saprolegnia is always in the air or water, it's an oppertunsitic secondary invader. You could nuke a tank with PP for a month and the second that something dies or there's an injury, it'll a invade.

You're living with a false sense of security if you think that using chems regularly is protecting your fish from parasites and or bacteria. You're doing more harm than good in the long term.

Good husbandry will take you a 100 times farther in protecting you fish than any abuse of a chem will

[Graham]

We're going to have to agree to disagree on this and comparing a commercial setting and suggesting commercial methods to a hobbyist isn't the way to go either. You're ability to catch or develop something is a whole lot higher than the typical hobbyist and the typical hobbyist shouldn't be following you're methods.

This whole hobby of ornamental fish , from the guppy breeder, to the koi breeder, to the discus breeder has a major problem and that's the abuse of chems and drugs...they are used way too much and without any idea if they are even needed.

Curious do you own a microscope and do a scrape and scope on a randam sampling of fish before you use chems or do you just dose?

There are ancedontal reports all through this site, the Koi sites and any other fish site where F&MG, PP, antibiotics, Prazi and other de=wormers, etc are not working as they previously did...I wonder why

G

[GulfCoastDiscus]

We're going to have to agree to disagree on this and comparing a commercial setting and suggesting commercial methods to a hobbyist isn't the way to go either. You're ability to catch or develop something is a whole lot higher than the typical hobbyist and the typical hobbyist shouldn't be following you're methods.

This whole hobby of ornamental fish , from the guppy breeder, to the koi breeder, to the discus breeder has a major problem and that's the abuse of chems and drugs...they are used way too much and without any idea if they are even needed.

Curious do you own a microscope and do a scrape and scope on a randam sampling of fish before you use chems or do you just dose?

There are ancedontal reports all through this site, the Koi sites and any other fish site where F&MG, PP, antibiotics, Prazi and other de=wormers, etc are not working as they previously did...I wonder why

G

I do own a microscope but after years of seeing the same issues, I can tell what is wrong or what type of treatment needed to save the fish.

IMO the reason why many treatments are not successful is because many do not use it correctly. It's easy to blame the overuse of the chem.
I do agree the mis-use of anti-biotics and bacteria mutating a resistance against the meds but anti-parasitic chemical such as Formalin and PP when use properly is very effective.

I have saved a whole shipment of discus near their death from the proper usage of Formalin and salt and to see them the next day as if nothing was wrong with them.

This is just my humble opinion.:):)

[Graham]

Dan you might have mis-took what I stated...when drugs or chems are needed for a medical or parasitic reasons, the proper med or chemical should be used without question and at maximum strength.

It's when a hobbyist says ''Oh it's Wed, time for a F&MG treatment'' when the fish is presenting no symptoms of any parasite or bacterial problems; that I have a problem with......

I'm glad my doctor or Vet doesn't diagnose by guessing based on what I'm or the cat is presenting.... That's what microscopes and tests are for.

You cured those fish but you don't have any idea what you cured:bandana:

[White Worm]

Anyway, its probably planaria, lol. Slow down your feeding for a day or so and do some large w/c's with wiping down the walls. They will go away or at least be minimal. If not, they wont hurt anything. Even if your discus eat everything, some small stuff will be left behind which attracts the little critters. Cleanliness is the med of choice. :D

[tonymaccs]

Dan you might have mis-took what I stated...

No, I think he got what you were clearly saying. Good to see you eventually coming back to the middle ground of reason.
The logic about commercial vs hobbyist can easily be reversed. Commercial entities have greater resources and interests to protect than the hobbyist with one or a few tanks, and should be better equipped with analytical tools and knowledge. It's very impractical to suggest the same standard should be applied to someone who just wants to keep a few pretty fish.

I agree that antibiotics should be taken out of the hands of the public and only dispensed by medical practioners, except that it would need to be globally enforced but the horse has probably well and truly bolted on that aim.

Suggesting that organisms are developing immunity to formalin would be like humans naturally devolping immunity to a flamethrower within a few generations. I'd like to see the reports too, but only if they are more than comments by the public on a few forums.

As for Prazi, was it ever truly effective against flukes- I've not seen the scientific evidence.

My view on planaria is that a plague of them does not represent a well balanced system. If that can be addressed by changing the feeding regime then that's fine, but FMG seems to deal with them quickly.

Tony

[Graham]

:confused: I didn't come back from anywhere, maybe you need to re-read what I wrote also. :rolleyes:

Dan feels that ''..A regular dose of formalin eliminates many issues like fungal and bacterial problems....'' which is a prophylactic treatment of his fish using caustic chemicals for no aperant reason other than it's Wednesday....

I feel that chems and meds should only be used when there is an identified problem with the fish...no guessing, assumptions, or that it happens to be Wednesday....so what did you miss in there?

Commercial entities; breeders, dealers and retailers should be way above the hobbyist..most aren't...and using microscopes, labs etc to ID problems or potential problems and not sitting back and shotgunning perceived problems or unknown problems...

What is used in a commercial setting really doesn't apply to a home hobbyist and shouldn't be suggested.

Prazi, Praziquantel is a standard de-wormer for humans and animals alike . It used to be effective and the standard in fish against both monogentic and digenetic trematodes/flukes. Go searching around the fishboards and see what you find. Paul had some poster from Hungary here recently stating that it's useless now days and no one there uses it anymore.

The koi hobbyist are moving away from it because it doesn't work very well anymore. They are also moving away from F&MG for flukes for the same reason!..........You can always increase the F&MG dose but at what point is the fire too much for even the fish?

Anyway, you too can use a shot to kill a mouse, to make up for less than prefect husbandry...clean the organics and do a water change!


G

[tonymaccs]

I feel that chems and meds should only be used when there is an identified problem with the fish...no guessing, assumptions, or that it happens to be Wednesday....so what did you miss in there?

G

I didn't have to look far to find this:
http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?t=61568
"If that fish is in a QT hit it with Quick Cure @ 1.5 times the dose or PP @4ppm asap..."

I guess that would be the well recognised telepathic form of microscope diagnosis then?:D

The pendulum swings- semantics, semantics.

Tony

[GulfCoastDiscus]

Graham,
I use it as part of my quarantine procedure. I don't use it because it's wednesday.hahahahha

I'm speaking from experience. I don't know what your experience is in the hobby but I am not quoting heresays from other forums. Frankly i have never seen any fish treated with formalin not get better from it because the parasite is immune to it. Formalin is very toxic. I don't think any parasite can build immunity from it. It's not similar to anti-biotics. The treatment is similar to dipping your dog for ticks and fleas. The concentration is mild to where it does not kill the host but kills the parasites living symbiotically on the host.

I am not a one tank expert with no years experience (1994). I've gone through many issues and killed many fish. Believe it or not is your perogative. This is what i do.

I do agree though with the usage of anti-biotics. I rather cull the sick fish than waste my time treating it.

jmhe,
daniel

[Graham]

I didn't have to look far to find this:
http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?t=61568
"If that fish is in a QT hit it with Quick Cure @ 1.5 times the dose or PP @4ppm asap..."

I guess that would be the well recognized telepathic form of microscope diagnosis then?

The pendulum swings- semantics, semantics.

Tony

Jees Tony if you actually followed many of my posts, you'd find that all too often I ask if the hobbyist owns a microscope...go check.... BTW do you?; know how to use it?!!. If and when they don't or if I don't think they have a good handle on whats happening with their fish or as in this case a fish is going down quick, then I'll suggest an educated shotgun approach...at this point this one looks like it might have helped....how are the skid marks BTW.... LMAO ;)


Dan...my experience in the fish hobby...I've kept fish since I was 7,...48 years ago. At one point in the late 60's, early 70's I had about 80 tanks in my parents basement, of assorted sizes, breeding numerous varieties of fish including discus.

I have worked in and managed pet stores throughout some of those years and had an interest in a small chain at one point.

I've owned a microscope since I was about 13 and have beat up more than one fish ''checking it out''. About 10 years ago I started attending major koi shows, which put on wet labs and seminars by leading fish Vets and researchers, a number from the U of Fl and the U of Ga.

Bottom line is, When I give an opinion it's based on a lot of experience............



As I mentioned before what you do commercially is a whole lot different than what a hobbyist should do...and I still don't agree with the haphazard use of caustic chems for no good reason

G

[tonymaccs]

Graham,
I was merely pointing out a very recent example of where you advised someone to do the precise thing you have been repetitively telling Dan he shouldn't be doing (and only one day apart).
Based on two photos, you made assumptions and guesses, then "hit it with Quick Cure".
I think that particular kind of advice was probably quite reasonable and practical in the circumstances. Let's remember you were the one aguing against it.
Nobody other than you mentioned Wednesday as the basis for throwing in meds, and you said it to make the other's point of view look ridiculous and therefore your own look more reasonable.
Each and all of us are infallible.

Tony

[Graham]

Not sure how you can compare me telling someone to treat a fish that very obviously has something extremely wrong with it with, Dan's prophylactic treatments, whenever he feels like it, on a fish that presents no symptoms. Post #10

''....It doesn't hurt to occasionally treat for parasites....''
''....A regular dose of formalin eliminates many issues like fungal and bacterial problems....''


Treating for no aperant reason is wrong IMO!

In the link that you posted; since the hobbyist didn't know what his fish had, bacterial or parasitic,or how to treat either. I doubt that he had a scope.

As I've stated before, I ask all too often if someone has a scope, unfortunately microscope training and use of it in the discus end of the hobby is very poor. Even by some of the professionals by the looks of it.

What's everyone going to do when Metronidazole becomes ineffective from the massive over use/abuse of it.............

[GulfCoastDiscus]

You're dragging this discussion too far. In reality you would be the first to complain about your new fish when you get it full of paraistes and the fins clamping.
This is my last post regarding this issue.
In truth...
Do whatever works for you. As an importer I do what works for me. I know what i need to do to provide clean healthy fish to my customers. Owning a microscope will not teach someone how to treat a fish. I'm only refering to treating for parasites. As you know there's not different chemicals use to treat each type of parasites. From the years of importing discus I know what i need to do to clean them up. You talk as if there are many option for treating all the different types of parasites. Just from experience I know if they are carrying parasites through observation. I have a microscope and use to do a smear on the new stock but I in time it's easy to recognized what is wrong with them without using a microscope. Like i said these parasites lives symbiotically with the host like all living things.
I treat them so when you buy fish from me they are not suffering from an infestation of paraistes.
From the hundreds of fish i have acquired there is only a limited issues i've seen from them. You speak as if i abuse drugs and chemicals to treat this fish without knowledge.

Take care and happy fish keeping.

[Graham]

Sorry Dan but you made the comments about random treatments not me...and not just cleaning up new shippments.

And yes there are diffferent Chems or meds that work better or worse on certain parasites...Copper for Oodinium, F&MG or PP for Costia or Chilodinella, Salt or MG for Ich or Trichodina, Prazi for flukes, Dimilin for Lernea or Argulus, Metro for Hexamita or Spironucleus...............

BTW you want to keep bacteria CFU's down with out using chems or clean water...try Lymnozyme or Koizyme

G

[tonymaccs]

Tomayto, tomarto- you're splitting hairs again Graham. I didn't really expect you'd accept the comparison but there it is in writing.

[Graham]

Splitting hairs eh...treating a sick fish, to treating a not sick fish :rolleyes:....I guess you missed something in the translation into Aussie :bandana:

[tonymaccs]

I think everyone's left the room Graham. I'm gone too- turn out the lights on your way out.