possible water quality and/or parasite issues... getting frustrated (LONG post) [Archive]

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Ryan

01-07-2008, 12:52 AM

Hi everyone,

I don't know where to begin. This is going to be a long post. In July 2006 I received my pigeons from Dan @ Gulf Coast. They originally came from Forrest. They were about 2" in size and I raised them for a year in a 55 gallon. I split the group of 10; five shipped to Al and I kept five. Sometime in late August/early September 2007 I finally set up my new 150 gallon tank and added my five discus and about a dozen ABN plecos. I received additional adults from Al as well as some festivums at around the same time.

My festivums were quarantined for 6 - 8 weeks and went through a bunch of different treatments including Prazi, formalin, and levamisole. My fish from Al were in quarantine 2 - 3 weeks, just to make sure everyone was eating well and settled. Al's fish were the first to get mixed in with mine. Other than some behavioral issues, there didn't seem to be much of a problem. I did have one fish stop eating for a few days and she went dark in color, but she bounced back and regained her appetite.

The festivums went in at the end of their quarantine period. Again, there weren't any immediate problems. All the fish ate well, got along well, and the discus showed their first real pairing/spawning activity.

Sometime in October, my discus started to show signs of irritation. There was a lot of darting, scratching, and twitching. One of the fish from Al, a young heckel, quit eating and went almost black. I stepped up my water changes but it had no effect. The entire 150 gallon tank was treated with formalin (QuickCure), then Prazi sometime later. When the fish showed no improvement, the heckel was removed to a 20 gallon QT tank and put through a 10 day treatment of metro. He regained his lighter color and began eating again, so I treated the 150 gallon with metro as well just in case and then re-added him to the tank.

The heckel, as well as the rest of my discus, continued to eat and spawn, but over time the twitching and flashing got worse. I have treated the tank twice with formalin -- the first time it was at the suggested dosage, every other day for a week. Each day I did a large (75 - 80%) w/c. The second treatment of formalin, which I just finished a few days ago, was at 4x the suggested dosage for 4 hour baths, followed by a large w/c. I did this every 4 days for 3 treatments. Again, the flashing has continued.

Two days after my last formalin treatment, some of the fish developed hazy eyes. A couple of the fish showed very obviously cloudy eyes, so now I am in the process of doing a 10 day Furan 2 treatment. This is day 4 and though the eyes are not truly cloudy, they are still dull and hazy. The intense dashing/darting/flashing continues. Most of the fish will flutter and twitch very violently, then dart across the tank. It's obvious that something is irritating them.

In addition to formalin, metro, and Prazi, the tank has been treated 3 times with PP. Each time I have done a thorough cleaning and a large water change prior to the treatment, yet the PP turns brown immediately as soon as I pour it into the tank. From talking to Al, this probably isn't a very good sign and my well water must be loaded with organics.

I notice the twitching/dashing/flashing the most when I turn the AquaClear filters back on after a water change. I assumed that maybe the filters needed cleaning, but I have disassembled them, scrubbed them, rinsed the sponges, and even PP'd the filter housings -- there's no change in the fish.

I have tried doing water changes of varying amounts -- 25% daily, 50% daily, 75% daily, 25% every other day, 50% every other day, etc. It doesn't seem to matter how much or how little water I change, the fish are always irritated. I have well water and so there is no chlorine/chloramine, but I did try using Amquel Plus for a few weeks because it neutralizes high nitrates and some heavy metals and Al thought it may be a good idea to try it. Well, it didn't stop the flashing in my fish, but it did make my water cloudy. I quit using it because it seemed to have no effect.

New test kits came on Friday. My well water is the same from the tap as it is after aging in the tank for 24 hours. The readings from tap and tank are as follows:

pH: 7.6 to 7.8
Ammonia: 0 ppm
Nitrite: 0 ppm
Nitrate: ~10 ppm
Phosphate: ~0.5 ppm
TDS: 150 - 200 ppm

I realize that there are nitrates in my well water, but the pigeons were not bothered by this for the first year that I had them, so I don't see how it would suddenly have such a strong impact now.

This week I started contacting people about doing water tests. The county health department is doing a bacteria test on my water and I should have the results by Wednesday. They told me they could not do any further testing on the water. I contacted an independent water testing lab and asked about tests, but they told me I would have to know specifically what I wanted tested when I called. So if anyone has any ideas of what I should be looking for, send me a list and I will call for pricing to have that checked.

I've been getting the run-around from University of Florida coop. extension about having one of my fish analyzed. My local rep put me in touch with the head of their aquaculture department, he said they didn't do testing for hobbyists and gave me a link to check for "fish vets" online, so I did a search for my state and it gave me a contact number for his office :confused: So I went in a big circle.

All of this, and the fish look alright (except for the recently hazy eyes) and they all still have good appetites. They were spawning up until last week and I have not seen any spawning behavior since. Maybe it's because I'm treating with Furan 2.

The festivums and the ABN plecos are fine. They all eat well, I've never seen the festivums flash or rub on anything, and none of them have hazy or cloudy eyes.

Next week I am probably getting my new fish from Kenny and I'm not even sure that I want them now. I bought all new hoses, buckets, and supplies for that tank and I will be aging the water to see if it makes a difference, but I really don't want to bring new discus into my house if I can't even figure out what's wrong with my current ones.

I wish I would put into words how sad and frustrated all of this makes me. I'm at a point where I don't even want to turn on the tank lights when I get up in the morning. I've dumped a ton of money into meds, especially since I'm treating an entire 150 gallon tank. To try all these things for months, and watch your fish get worse instead of better, is heartbreaking and disappointing. Part of me wants to get rid of the fish, drain the tank, and take a break again.

If anyone has any suggestions, comments, questions, etc. please let me know. I have been confiding in Al with all of this, but he's at a loss and so am I. It certainly doesn't seem like a 'disease,' but I've run through so many treatments that you'd think flukes or parasites would have been long gone. The only reasonable explanation at this point would be something in my water, and I don't have room to age 150 gallons of water. Besides, what would I do? Chlorinate it? UV filter it? I don't know.

I'm reaching a dead end and it's really difficult for me. :(

Ryan

dawncollette

01-07-2008, 01:19 AM

I am sure you have checked but I thought I would ask......are you sure there are no electrical currents or shorts going thru the water????coming from a filter or heater possibly?
I sure hope things get better for you and you figure this out, I can tell that after all this time, you are rightfully frustrated,
dawn

Ryan

01-07-2008, 01:21 AM

Hi Dawn,

Thanks for the reply. That's another possibility that Al mentioned this week, especially since there seems to be some correlation between the Aquaclears and the fish acting really jumpy. I ordered new titanium heaters with controllers because my temp hasn't been constant with the Visitherms I'm currently using and those should be here sometime this week.

What do I need to find out if there's stray current? I know I've seen people talk about them, but I forget offhand. I guess I need to find myself one of those.

Ryan

dawncollette

01-07-2008, 01:23 AM

Ryan, I believe there is a tester of some sort that you can put into the water and it will pick up even the smallest amount of current if there is any running thru the water. What you may not feel when you put your hand in the water the discus may feel however and be reacting to it.......sounds like to me you have covered every other base there is....good luck,
dawn

dawncollette

01-07-2008, 01:26 AM

from a thread in November it says a voltage meter is what they use to test for stray voltage, hope this helps,
dawn

Kenny's Discus

01-07-2008, 01:38 AM

Ryan, if your fish are always showing signs of being irritated after a water change every time then imho it's obvious that something from the water is bothering them. You've pretty much tried most of the meds that should have covered the bases for internal and external parasites. I think the darting/flashing behavior should have stopped if it was parasitic.

I know this might not help(since you have well water) but I just want to mention it...I've used Amquel plus in the past; although they work similarly personally I just don't have as good an experience(just my own experience not speaking for everybody) than when using Prime. After I switched to Prime years ago I've not had a single problem with water issue...and I have high chloramine in my area.

I hope you can find a resolution to this frustrating problem. Don't rush anything I will hold the fish from Forrest for you for as long as you need.

Kenny

Ryan

01-07-2008, 01:40 AM

Kenny,

The reason it's so puzzling to me is that my festivums are fine. They were wild-caught and I received them as 1.5" babies in September. I've read that wild-caught festivums are very sensitive to water quality, just like discus, so I am surprised that they're thriving with no signs of irritation. I can't understand why if it were a water quality issue (or even a parasite or disease issue, for that matter) the discus would be the only ones affected :confused:

I should mention that it's not just after a water change, it's all the time. Usually, after a water change is when they spawn and fight and act like healthy discus... but after I flip all the filters back on and feed them, the darting/flashing starts. Like I said, I've tried cutting back on w/c and observing for a few days to see if they calmed down as the water aged, but they still do it. :(

senso

01-07-2008, 02:35 AM

Ryan

The joys of discus and the grief. No doubt you have been through all the obvious elements and since you are in touch with Al, some of these comments may be redundant.

A few things I was looking for in your post.
Temp that you keep them at
Food you feed on a regular basis

The reason I ask, is that a year ago, I had some discus that I had owned for 9 months suddenly stop eating, cloudy eyes, white feces. I stopped feeding CBW (from an unrealiable source) and upped the the 180 from approx 81 to 90 for about three weeks. I continued with regular water changes and wthin a week all but one fully recovered. No meds administered in the water, although I did attemp to add metro to frozen blood worm and chopped wrigglers.

Fast forward a year later, with a group of wild blues I have been together for at least 5 months. Some of the ones that I have had for a year plus stopped eating, and have seen white feces on one, and very listless. This time there was no CBW being fed. I increased the temp to 90 again and increased the volume of WC to about 50% every second day. No meds. Within 3 days, of the ones that were sick, all but two are showing increased activity, brightness in the eyes, and eating. The others are active

I few things I think may apply
- the temp may be a factor
- diet may be an issue
- dominance (in my tank the dominant fish and ones that are showing signs of spawning are fine. The less dominant ones, which are now also the smaller ones, are the sickly ones.)

With the heckel, the ph may be a factor as they prefer a more acidic water.

Some food for thought.

Rossano

Ryan

01-07-2008, 03:26 AM

Rossano, thanks for the reply. The temp was being kept at 83 - 84F. Last week the weather here dipped into the 20s (I'm in Florida) and my tank dropped to 79F. This is part of the reason I ordered new titanium heaters with controllers last week. I have cranked it up to about 86F for now.

As for feeding, they get Hikari frozen bloodworms, frozen beefheart (San Francisco Bay/Sally's brand), ONF1 pellets and flakes, and they also eat my ABN plecos' Sera catfish chips. They used to get mysis shrimp from P.E. Mysis, but I've been out for quite some time.

The thing is, none of the fish have lost their appetite. After my initial issue with the heckel and the subsequent metro treatment, all of the fish have had incredible appetites. They meet me at the lid every day and devour everything I drop in. That's why this is so frustrating -- they don't act sick, just highly agitated.

Ryan

Ryan

01-07-2008, 04:08 AM

Greg Richardson

01-07-2008, 04:28 AM

I know this doesn't make to much sense but if you have the means to do it extend your AC tubes all the way down to about 4 inches from bottom. Do wc but stop right before suction is lost.
See if it makes difference the ac staying on. Worth a shot.

Only time my ac make noise is after turning them back on and maybe some air needs to escape.
Have you taken the propeller out and brush insides? Sometimes I've cleaned everything else and still had issues until I cleaned that.
Some tanks because of tubes going down far enough I don't turn them off.

Some more thoughts. Eliminate the ac that is making noise for a while. See what happens.

majik

01-07-2008, 04:38 AM

I'm starting to think that Al and Dawn are onto something with the voltage fluctuation. Lying here in bed with the TV off, I keep hearing one of my AquaClears go from really quiet (low flow) to really loud (sounds like a waterfall) every 30 seconds or so. It keeps doing that over and over again. I have used ACs in the past and I don't remember them getting louder and quieter as far as the flow is concerned. Maybe I'll pick up a voltage meter tomorrow.

Hi Ryan i dont know that much but i just wanted to comizerate how frustated your feeling grief is the price we pay for lovin something unfortunatly but it certianly does seam to be sounding like a curcit thing here in nz we call them multi testers handy wee things i hope it is that simple if not thats something you can rule out.I know it sounds kinda stupid but my partner just turned on our auto bug sprayer and i went bizerk and turned it off ,im sure you have layed awake for hours trying to work out what it is but its nothing like that is it?:o

2sybs

01-07-2008, 05:53 AM

Ryan, something like this tester should tell you what you need to know as far as stray voltage.
http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2103174&cp=2032058.2032235.2032305&parentPage=family

I like digitals but they also sell an analog tester that is a few $ cheaper.
It does sound like an issue with one of the ACs if it only starts when you turn them on. Also, do you turn off the heaters etc at the same time? ( I have my filters, heater, air on a power strip, everything but the lights that I can turn off with a flip of a switch when i do WCs)
Ray

Ardan

01-07-2008, 06:48 AM

Hi Ryan,
1. Plug the Aquaclears into a different circuit with an extension cord and see if that helps.

or
2. I would try going without the aquaclears for a while

3. definately check for stray voltage. one lead to ground (the third hole in an outlet , rounded hole) the other lead to the tank water.

4. separate the current fish into different tanks , this will check the fish and a different tank

5. See if they can test for organics in the water (other than nitrate)
I hope this gets better for you!
hth
Ardan

Heavensbabrgrl

01-07-2008, 07:29 AM

Almost sounds like a hydrogen sulfide or high iron problem...Ive seen a few locals with this problem who are on well water.

phidelt85

01-07-2008, 08:49 AM

Man, Ryan, I didn't know you were still having troubles. Ardan, Al and Dawn have you covered on the stray voltage, I would just go ahead and buy a grounding probe for your tank and that should definitely take care of that if it's an issue. This should be the quickest and easiest fix.

In regards to water testing, you can have the lab run a TOC or Total Organic Carbon. Ask the lab what container you will need, I want to say it is an amber glass bottle, but I can't remember what preservative if any it takes; either way, the lab should provide the proper container. It will give you an idea of the organic load in your well or tank (you can do one or both). If you already don't, may I suggest a charcoal filter in your water line to remove any organics and toxins. If you have one, consider changing it out to a new one. I really do hope you find the cause, and these guys come around for you.

Ryan

01-07-2008, 09:13 AM

Only time my ac make noise is after turning them back on and maybe some air needs to escape.
Have you taken the propeller out and brush insides? Sometimes I've cleaned everything else and still had issues until I cleaned that.

Greg, it's not the actual mechanical sound of the filter that I was hearing last night. It's the sound of the water rushing into the tank from the filter. For a while it'd just sound like a very light trickle, then back to a roaring "waterfall" sound, then back to a trickle. It makes me wonder if the AC is not running at full capacity all the time. I have taken apart both ACs numerous times and scrubbed them with little bottle brush cleaners, including the propeller housing.

I know it sounds kinda stupid but my partner just turned on our auto bug sprayer and i went bizerk and turned it off ,im sure you have layed awake for hours trying to work out what it is but its nothing like that is it?:o

I've definitely lost sleep over the whole thing. I'm definitely going to check for stray current because it's the one thing I haven't done with this tank yet.

Ryan, something like this tester should tell you what you need to know as far as stray voltage.
http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2103174&cp=2032058.2032235.2032305&parentPage=family

I like digitals but they also sell an analog tester that is a few $ cheaper.
It does sound like an issue with one of the ACs if it only starts when you turn them on. Also, do you turn off the heaters etc at the same time? ( I have my filters, heater, air on a power strip, everything but the lights that I can turn off with a flip of a switch when i do WCs)
Ray

Ray, I definitely prefer the digital one. I'll pick one up today. Maybe I can figure this out once and for all. I don't turn off my heaters or sponges during a water change, just the ACs so that I can remove and rinse the pre-filter sponges. The heaters are never out of the water (they're near the bottom of the tank) so I've never turned them off.

Hi Ryan,
1. Plug the Aquaclears into a different circuit with an extension cord and see if that helps.

...

5. See if they can test for organics in the water (other than nitrate)

Al suggested #1 but I haven't tried that yet. I need to get ahold of an extension cord that's long enough. Actually, I thought about just going without the ACs for a while and seeing if that made a difference. Then again, I guess it could be my heaters, too. Maybe that explains why I had the dip in temperature last week. It's a little odd that 3 - 300 watt heaters couldn't keep my 150 above 79 even though they were set to 85F. :confused:

Almost sounds like a hydrogen sulfide or high iron problem...Ive seen a few locals with this problem who are on well water.

We have some iron, but nothing too bad. My water has been excellent for growing out young S.A. cichlids and angelfish, so it just seems weird that my problems would start now, out of the blue almost.

Man, Ryan, I didn't know you were still having troubles. Ardan, Al and Dawn have you covered on the stray voltage, I would just go ahead and buy a grounding probe for your tank and that should definitely take care of that if it's an issue. This should be the quickest and easiest fix.

In regards to water testing, you can have the lab run a TOC or Total Organic Carbon. Ask the lab what container you will need, I want to say it is an amber glass bottle, but I can't remember what preservative if any it takes; either way, the lab should provide the proper container. It will give you an idea of the organic load in your well or tank (you can do one or both). If you already don't, may I suggest a charcoal filter in your water line to remove any organics and toxins. If you have one, consider changing it out to a new one. I really do hope you find the cause, and these guys come around for you.

I will e-mail the lab today and see if they can do a TOC check. Where does one get a grounding probe and what kind of work is involved? Excuse the ignorance, but I've never had to do anything like that.

I received my lab results on the fax at work this morning. The water didn't have any bacteria in it and was marked "satisfactory." That doesn't really tell me a whole lot.

Thanks for the replies everyone!

phidelt85

01-07-2008, 09:34 AM

Hey Ryan, in regards to the grounding probe, here are some links:
http://www.bigalsonline.com/StoreCatalog/ctl3684/cp18272/si1383299/cl1/coralife_titanium_ground_probe?&query=grounding+probe&queryType=0&offset=

phidelt85

01-07-2008, 09:36 AM

I only had one link. It's pretty simple just plug one end into an outlet as it uses the ground circuit on your house and drop the other end into the tank.

HTH

Ryan

01-07-2008, 09:51 AM

I only had one link. It's pretty simple just plug one end into an outlet as it uses the ground circuit on your house and drop the other end into the tank.

HTH

Well, that's easy! :)

2sybs

01-07-2008, 02:08 PM

A few more links for a grounding probe.
http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?c=3578+3728+3946&pcatid=3946
http://63.240.30.172/pet/group/23004/product.web
http://www.premiumaquatics.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=RIO-PROBE-GROUND&Category_Code=GroundTemp

poconogal

01-07-2008, 04:00 PM

For a while it'd just sound like a very light trickle, then back to a roaring "waterfall" sound, then back to a trickle. It makes me wonder if the AC is not running at full capacity all the time.
Hi Ryan. I have an AC 500 that I purchased in 1993 and used until a year ago when I switched to a canister. I had the same problem with the flow that you described (my AC would almost stop, then the flow would pick up some, then drop to a trickle) and found out from Hagen that it was actually the thin silver metal rod that goes through the impeller that was worn out. Hagen sent me a new one and my flow problem was solved.

brewmaster15

01-07-2008, 04:30 PM

Ryan,

As you know, we really went thru the ringer on this tank, and I am at a loss.:( I can't see parasites or bacterias as being likely given all we have looked at...Everything points at water issues as being likely...

Its frustrating that we don't know why only the discus are affected.:confused::confused:...but There was also an issue with the Kribs that we never resolved....I don't know if thats was related or not...or even if the various symptoms are related......Its tough because we don't have a classic crash...just "issues" and not even issues that consistent.

One thing I know is...giving up isn't an option that I think you should entertain.... Its frustrating and depressing when we get faced with unknowns...but...if there wasn't a challenge..it would not be worth it....Try to keep a positive outlook...maybe others here can help you figure out whats going on...I'm stumped...

one note,...
Heavensbabrgrl mentioned Iron....and that level would fluctuate depending on the rains.... its also sometimes applied as an agricultural suppliment....and would react rapidly with PP... PP is used to clean water filters and remove Iron....and Iron toxicity and sensitivity can vary in fish.....Iron tests are availible and may be well worth looking into.

-al

Ryan

01-07-2008, 04:41 PM

If I were having a problem with iron, how would I go about removing that from the water during aging?

brewmaster15

01-07-2008, 05:01 PM

Theres Filters that remove Iron...I may have one that I have used from time to time that I could send to you if you have an iron problem... The one I have is a small one..similar to an RO carbon filter in size and plumbing......but they make whole house ones.

-al

phidelt85

01-07-2008, 05:09 PM

You can pick up Iron filters at Sears, HD, Ace, and as Al said, they also have them for whole house systems

phidelt85

01-07-2008, 05:09 PM

On another note, if you have a whole house softener, I believe they have salt that will help remove the iron in your water.

crimson cross

01-07-2008, 07:35 PM

Could be an outbreak of Hydra and most strains are very resistant to the meds you are using...if so, try fluke tabs at 1.5 times the dosage. hth.
Phil.

Ardan

01-07-2008, 08:59 PM

It's a little odd that 3 - 300 watt heaters couldn't keep my 150 above 79 even though they were set to 85F

Definately a problem there. In my 240 gal I have 950 watts and it maintains 85 no problem and the room temp is at 70 to 72 F.

So the heater/.s are not right there at all. At least one is not working properly imo.

The AC, replace the impeller, I have had to do that too. And make sure the metal rod stays in the motor

hth
Ardan

Greg Richardson

01-07-2008, 09:00 PM

Maybe that explains why I had the dip in temperature last week. It's a little odd that 3 - 300 watt heaters couldn't keep my 150 above 79 even though they were set to 85F.

Imo this isn't right. They should have no problem keeping your water at 85.

Ryan

01-07-2008, 11:51 PM

Thanks again for all the replies.

My new titanium heaters will be here tomorrow. I bought two 500 watt models from Jehmco wired to a controller. So that will be step 1 in eliminating potential problems.

I'm considering getting rid of my Aquaclears all together. Something hasn't felt right about them since day 1. I do have a Rena XP3 that I purchased when I bought the tank and it's still sitting in the box in my storage unit. Maybe I'll give that a try instead.

I ordered an iron test kit and a grounding probe today and should have them at the end of the week. I also have a call in to my local water lab about a TOC test. They said it was $95 and they had to collect the water themselves. That's okay, though.

While I'm at it, is there anything I should test for besides TOC, iron, and hydrogen sulfide?

Ardan, I actually have my 40g breeder that I bought all new stuff for. I was going to set it up and get my fish from Kenny. I can set it up and put a few of my big problem fish in it for a little while to see if there's a change. I'll just have to bleach it really good before I get my fish from Kenny... you know, just in case :(

Ryan

GrillMaster

01-07-2008, 11:53 PM

I also agree that you have a heater issue. I have 2 300 watt heaters on the 125 and it doesn't move from 84 deg. Room temp at 68-70.

Ninja posted!! :D

Ryan the hydor 300W in line heaters are really great and very easy to install on the XP3's. :)

tc
Mark

April

01-08-2008, 04:13 AM

try the xp3 . im using them on my big tanks. the fish smile more. i used the carbon filter section for awhile that came with it..added noodles and after a bit i remvoed the carbon packet incase it had stuff in there it absorbed.
if you need to know about iron..talk to jason. i think he had to get special filters for iron for his well.
sorry to hear your having problems. they are beautiful fish. dont give up.

tonymaccs

01-08-2008, 06:53 AM

I ordered an iron test kit and a grounding probe today and should have them at the end of the week.

Hi Ryan,
At the risk of sounding like a skeptic, a lot of what is being said about "stray voltage" as relevant to aquariums is highly questionable and entering the world of urban myth. None of the sites I have seen promoting the sale of the so-called "grounding probes" (a misnomer in itself) provide an explanation that can be supported by electrical theory.
Using the "grounding probe" in the way described can just as easily induce a current through the tank as cancel it. Grounding one point in the tank could create a voltage differential accross the tank that could be theoretically be fatal. This is why swimming pools are required to have an equipotential grid embedded in their walls and floor.
By all means check your electrical devices for contact faults that may be causing short circuits and reasonably eliminate electrical shock as a cause of your problems.
I would be looking to source water quality if you are using local ground water- pesticides, chemicals, etc. You will be hard pressed to lab test for and eliminate them all as causes but one practical possibility might be to switch to an alternate water source, at least for a trial period.
Tony

Ryan

01-08-2008, 09:32 AM

Unfortunately, I only have one water source. If I had more options available to me I wouldn't be using the well water. I live in a rural area and there is no municipal water here. So it's either a well or nothing. Because of space limitations, I don't have a place to store and age water for a tank as large as 150 gallons.

pcsb23

01-08-2008, 12:19 PM

Ryan, sorry to hear you are experiencing these frustrations. It's a real bummer for sure.

If there is a "stray voltage" it will show up on a multimeter, you will need a base reading from water in a glass bowl to check against. It is possible that there is a higher than acceptable Fe content, the test kit will soon show that, if it is Fe then an appropriate filter will resolve the issues as will some stem plants (I'll get you to the dark side yet!!).

I do agree with the view that it is water based and probably source water based. Aging won't necessarily fix it either if its heavy metal issues (Fe, Mercury, Lead etc...).

Some other options and/or things to think on.
1) Run all your change water through an HMA filter (a fiber prefilter and a high quality carbon filter), this will remove most heavy metals and chlorine, here is a link to one in the UK http://www.ro-man.com/shop/product_info.php/cPath/35/products_id/134 if the carbon is changed for a chloplus 10 carbon it will deal chloramines as well as chlorine.
2) Run activated carbon for a few days in the un-used rena xp3 and see if that improves things, with a tds of 200 and daily water changes any trace element issues won't be!
3) Try some polyfilter in either the xp3 or the aquaclear (if it fits). The sheets are cut to size, and this stuff is used in dialysis machines to remove pollutants and does just that in the tank. Here is a link to a UK supplier http://www.underworldproducts.co.uk/aquatic/filtermedia/polyfilter.htm. The good thing with polyfilter is that it can tell you what the offending pollutant is by the colour it changes to.
4) Use an RO system and remineralise with mineral salts, if nothing else this will guarantee that the source water is good, trouble is you need somewhere to collect and store the RO water.

Some other, less likley imo, possibilities. It is an external parasite/bacterial problem that is resistant to the meds you have used or some latent/residual internal parasitic issue. Copper sulfate would be an option for the former.

joe l

01-08-2008, 10:08 PM

GrillMaster

01-08-2008, 10:26 PM

Ryan....bud....yer by no means new to this! I believe if it was a water problem you would have picked it off right away.

Now if ya have faulty equipment ie...heaters, filters or whatever, that would be the route I would think you would take.

Not to take away from any of the other replies, but you know what you know...The things you might not know about is the avenue you should be looking at.

just my .02...

tc
Mark

Elcid

01-08-2008, 11:24 PM

GrillMaster

01-08-2008, 11:57 PM

Ryan

01-09-2008, 12:14 AM

Hey Ryan:

I'm really sorry to read through this thread of yours! I gotta mention a few points you may not like to hear! Anyway since it is my experience I'm going to share them with you :bandana:

(1) Big tanks are not small tanks! For some odd reason discus like small tanks. I always find that my discus are happiest in a 50 gallon size tank than in a 150! I don't know what I do differently, I don't think I do anything different!

(2) I made my big tanks better by adding a wet dry filter. I don't know why it helps but I think it just aerates the water better and I have floss that the water constantly falls through and I throw out the floss every month.

(3) You should know better than to do so many treatments on your fish over a short period of time! Shame on you! :)

(4) You cannot have a discus community tank! There is no substitute for cleaning you cannot employ cleaners!

(5) You need to control your water, you need to control your food....Too little is bad but too much is worse!

HTH,
Sandeep

1. A lot of people here have 125 and 150 gallon tanks full of discus. I could understand that logic if the fish were shy or skittish, but they aren't. In fact, they are very friendly and they eat out of my hands. They all have good appetites and they spawn regularly. However, they are flashing/darting/rubbing/twitching which leads me to believe there is an irritant in the tank. I don't see how that could be related to tank size.

2. I don't have the option to have a wet/dry right now. Maybe when I move out and I have a fish room with more space.

3. I don't like treating fish and I never wanted to have to do that. However, I've gone through these with Al and I really didn't have much of a choice. I can either attempt to treat them and rule out things in an effort to make them better, or I can watch them waste away and die. The treatments have not been back to back and they've been given time to rest in between.

4. This is something that I've always believed to be ridiculous. I have had my pigeons since July 2006 and I did not have problems until September/October 2007. That's 14 - 15 months. In that time, they have shared their tank with Uaru and ABN plecos with no issues whatsoever.

5. I'm attempting to control my water by asking questions and learning what I should be testing for that I'm not already seeing. That was the entire point of this thread. I don't think food is a problem; I have that covered.

Sorry Sandeep, but I just don't agree with most of those statements. I think a lot of the longtime hobbyists here will tell you that they've done most of these things without major issues.

kaceyo

01-09-2008, 12:47 AM

Hey Ryan,
Are you using any kind of filtration on your well water? Two things I'd recommend. First, run your tap water thru a carbon block filtration system to eliminate any polutants that might be getting into your well water. Wells are notorious for picking up contaminants such as pesticides, fertilizers, oils, solvents and any other chemicals that get rinsed into the ground water from local homes and busineses.
You can get a 3 stage carbon block filter for much less than you might think by going to a place like Air, Water & Ice (Where I got my two stage for $35) which would eliminate many possibilities that you can't test for.
As for the stray voltage, just install a grounding probe and eliminate that possibility also. Very simple.;)
Good luck and don't give up,

Kacey

Elcid

01-09-2008, 01:44 AM

Hi Ryan:

Okay I can accept that you can find examples contrary to my experience. I thought that I had recently seen some pics of your tank and discus and other fish recently and they looked quite fat and happy?

Considering how well you did with Forrest's pigeons (and we have all admired them for sure) I just don't see why the water you are using should suddenly change from what you have been getting for the past 2 years?......

Just use salt and cut back on your feeding for a few days and don't forget to change the water daily....You can always try to rig up a home made wet/dry using rubbermaid, it's really not that costly!

take care,
Sandeep

Elcid

01-09-2008, 01:54 AM

Sorry Sandeep, I have to disagree with ya...

#1... I believe that big tanks with alot of Discus will out weigh yer 50G tank!

#2...A 150 will do great with 2 XP3's an 2 inline heaters.

#3... He definately knows! He is just weighin options...

#4... I have a 125G community tank that is thriving. Its a planted tank BTW...

#5...I think Ryan has been doin this long enough ta know what his water is like an how ta feed the fish...;) :D

tc
Mark

Hehe Mark!

You know Ryan's a very smart guy IMO :)......but 2 XP3s with inline heaters? :) those are cannisters right? Just to clear things up though, this is just my experience amongst the tanks I have (20s, 45, 55, 50, 75 and 150).....and I would gladly exchange my 150 for 3 - 50s any day!

thanks,
Sandeep

guille2007

01-09-2008, 03:41 AM

Ryan

I would try to test for posible excesive sodium in water source.

Discus_adictus

01-09-2008, 06:57 AM

Hi Ryan, I understand your frustrations watching your discus get worse instead of better after doing so many treatments. I'm no expert in discus keeping like most of the guys in the forum and I'm miles away from your location.

But just in case it's not a "stray voltage" or heater problem, maybe you can try placing your discus in a different location or a different tank. This may sound crazy, but I experienced a change in discus behavior after transferring my discus which are flashing, darting and rubbing (but not twitching) to another location. They had a good appetite but exhibit abnormal behavior prior to the transfer. I understand they started displaying symptoms a month after you transfer them to your 150 gal tank. Crazy it might sound to most of you guys but it worked for me.

aquagal

01-09-2008, 11:34 AM

Ryan--

I'm not an expert on this subject, but a fairly reliable fish expert in my area says that stray voltage just is not a big issue w/ fresh water aquariums, maybe more of an issue w/ salt water.

I have had a similar experience to yours, in that all my discus started to die off one by one w/ no apparent explanation. Of my original 10 discus, I only have one left. I was very careful about water changes/water quality. I also had other fish in the tank (loaches, rams, BNs, tetras) and I never lost one of them? I went through all the same treatments, Prazi, Metro, etc. with absolutely no success. I'm not sure if my problem was the water and I'm not on a well? My only conclusion is that I should not have mixed discus from different sources (3 sources total and all reputable).

Best of luck.

back 2 discus biz

01-09-2008, 03:23 PM

I'll put my two cents in for what its worth:

If they are calm until the pumps come on I would think that's a dead ringer for cause-effect. If there is no stray voltage maybe the pumps are introducing vibration, sound, or too much water current.

I'm not sure how many fish you have but with a 150 gal couldn't you change the water, keep the pumps off, discontinue food for the day, and observe their behavior? There should be enough O2 and without food I would think the water quality would be stable for 12 hours.

My fish seem to shake and dart around for awhile after a water change that results in millions of tiny air bubbles (from having too much water force on the refilling python). Sometimes I think those bubbles lodge in or tickle their gills which freaks them out. When the bubbles are gone they calm down. Just a theory.

I wish you luck.

Paul

White Worm

01-09-2008, 04:52 PM

Go with the XP3. I have never been a fan of the HOB. Mine have been so much happier with the extra filtration and the current output of the XP3. Use a prefilter..I'm sure you already knew that. ;) Hope things turn out for you. I'm not sure if I had seen in this thread if you ever took the discus with the most flashing and did any kind of dip/bath to see if that made any difference?

Ryan

01-11-2008, 02:21 AM

Thank you again for all of the suggestions and ideas.

I purchased a bunch of new stuff for the tank and I'm going to give it an overhaul once my Furan-2 treatment is finished (in three days). I bought two titanium heaters with a controller and also got some PolyPads to run in the XP3 as per Paul's suggestion. I am going to ditch the AquaClears, buy a second XP3, and run those instead. I'll get a UPS to handle any brief power outages that may occur when I'm not home just so that my bacteria doesn't die off from lack of oxygen in the canisters.

There has been no change in my fish. They're not better or worse. I did notice tonight that my festivums are starting to take advantage of their lethargic behavior and pick on the discus. Up until this week, it used to be the other way around. I guess I could always move them for a while until I see if the upcoming reconfiguration helps my discus at all.

I am still waiting on my multimeter (I should have it tomorrow I hope) but I did get my iron test kit. It's a Hagen Nutrafin brand kit and it tests for both chelated iron and non-chelated (free) iron. The non-chelated/free iron is supposedly the toxic one. According to my test, it's at 0. I'm still waiting on the results of the chelated iron because it takes 30 minutes to get a result. From what I've read in the booklet, though, it's only important if I have a planted tank?

So that rules out iron, I guess.

Ryan

01-11-2008, 02:35 AM

The chelated iron test is done. It's also at 0 mg/L. Which brings all my tested parameters to:

Temperature: 85F
pH: 7.6 to 7.8
Ammonia: 0 ppm
Nitrite: 0 ppm
Nitrate: ~10 ppm
Phosphate: ~0.5 ppm
TDS: 150 - 200 ppm
Chelated iron: 0 mg/L
Non-chelated (free) iron: 0 mg/L
Bacteria coliforms: Absent (according to the Health Department Environmental Lab)

Still no TOC test. It's $100 and the lab is giving me a hard time about collecting it. They say they have to set up an appointment to come out and do it.

The only thing I haven't tested for yet, other than the TOC test, is stray voltage.

Ryan

Ryan

01-13-2008, 12:45 AM

I got my multimeter on Friday. I checked a glass of water and it shows 0V, but when I put the probe in the tank it says 1.3V. I'm not sure if I'm doing this properly. The wall outlets I checked were supposed to read 120V according to the book, but all of the ones in our house range from 123.2 - 124.1 or so.

phidelt85

01-13-2008, 01:22 AM

Ryan, you will see fluctuations in your house voltage depending on your load and system load as well. Did you get your ground probes yet? Did you try getting a reading with the grounding probe installed? I would say you definitely got some voltage showing; as to whether that's the root cause....:undecided:...I don't know.

Ryan

01-13-2008, 01:23 AM

The ACs are off now because I'm changing water, so I decided I would check the tank again for the heck of it. With the black lead to ground and the red lead in the tank, it registers at 28V now :confused: I don't know if I'm doing this right. I assume so, since a glass of regular water shows 0V and the outlets show 123 - 124V.

phidelt85

01-13-2008, 01:43 AM

hell, you got me now! ?????

phidelt85

01-13-2008, 01:43 AM

You are selected to AC volts, right? I'm just double checking.

Ryan

01-13-2008, 01:47 AM

Yes, I'm using the AC 200V setting like the book said.

Ardan said that the voltage reading (if there was one) could fluctuate depending on whether or not the heaters were cycled on. The ACs are unplugged, but all 3 of my heaters are still running. Maybe when the cold air hit the tank, the heaters went on and the voltage reading went up?

phidelt85

01-13-2008, 02:01 AM

Wow, 28volts! I'm gonna go test mine real quick. BRB

phidelt85

01-13-2008, 02:11 AM

OK, I tested a glass of water: 0V.
40gal Challenge fish tank: 1.6V and I could see the heater was running.
125gal. tank: 73V that's with 2-250W stealths and an XP3. Have you tested with the grounding probe installed?

Ryan

01-13-2008, 02:12 AM

No, I haven't tried a grounding probe. I am still in the middle of my Furan-2 treatment and I am not making any changes until it's done. I want to try one thing at a time because if I start making tons of changes at once, I'm not going to be able to pinpoint what is and isn't working.

phidelt85

01-13-2008, 02:24 AM

I was wondering if you saw a change. Hell, at 73V I may give a grounding probe a try. My discus in the 125 are jumpy at times dunno if it's from "stray voltage'

Ryan

01-13-2008, 02:43 AM

phidelt85

01-13-2008, 05:04 AM

Been doing some searching and so far I just find saltwater references:

http://saltaquarium.about.com/library/weekly/aa101602.htm
http://www.reefs.org/library/aquarium_net/996/996_5.html
http://www.badmanstropicalfish.com/forum/index.php?topic=9124.msg100796

Just a few that I found

Ardan

01-13-2008, 07:43 AM

First, if you have any sponge filters going, turn them all off.
I tested my tanks right now, and some of them with the bubblers going registered some volts (with heater unplugged), but with air on. with air off it is .6 volts (not much if any). This is in more than one tank (numbers similar)
I think that is because of minerals in the water and movement. jmo

Test the voltage when only one heater is on at a time. then you can pinpoint which heater it is. Do it with that heater on and off, plugged in and unplugged. (it could be a small short even with that heater off, but plugged in, the switch in the heater or the contacts may be closing part way or burnt part way....)

I would then eliminate that heater from the system (you shouldn't need that many watts anyway, 900) IF need be, put in a new heater and test again. (I would do it even if furan treatment is not done because it would definately indicate a problem.)

If you get a small voltage from new heaters, use the ground probe.

Also test with the light away from the tank

I think you have a faulty heater.

Earlier when you said the fish freak when you turn on the ac filter, it is circulating water after a wc. This water may be a bit cooler and this causes the heaters to go on, so it would be a heater problem, not the ac problem. jmo

(p.s. I responded to your pm before I read this thread), household voltage can fluctuate due to useage and demand....

Ardan

Ardan

01-13-2008, 11:24 AM

Hi Ryan,
I just did some experiments:D No real problems with most of the fish.
I tested 15 heaters, various watts. from 150 watts to 350 watts. no water circulating in tank (air off), lights unplugged, ac filters unplugged (these seem to give off less than one volt when running)

It seems that the smaller heaters generally can give 1 to around 10 volts (stray volts)150 to 200 watts, nothing else plugged in to the tank.
With nothing plugged in (no heaters either), I can get 1 volt plus or minus.

The larger heaters (350 watts, I had 3 going) seem to give 10 to near 20 volts. nothing else plugged in on the tank.

I did find one heater 150 watt , that "sometimes" when on, gave off 60 volts. the fish in that tank on occassion seem to hide, don't know if it is related or just that fish, whatever, I have lots of extra heaters, so I changed out that heater. Sometimes it gave off 10 volts????

anyway, my unscientific conclusion, is that emf (electomagnetic fields, this is studies much in cows, at least here in the dairy state:D) do give off some voltage (fact).
How much is safe?? I don't think anyone knows for sure, but I dug up some research
http://community.oceana.org/story/2006/5/22/8437/73051
this is a scientific study on oceans and power generating near oceans..... the last article is pretty good, so are some others.
Its nothing proof, but speculation (frequencies.....)

kind of interesting.

I also know that when we are fishing, we have a "black box" that puts a slight amount of current into the water. Some claim that this will stimulate the fish lateral line and get them excited thinking they sense another fish nearby (bait fish) and come near the boat looking for food. Each species is supposedly a different volt. Salmon .62 volts, trout different..... noone knows if it works for sure, but some claim success.
We usually don't even try it, because my sons seem to do well without it:D

So, if you find a heater that seems to give off high voltage, compared to the other heaters, change it, or change them all and do another set of readings.
I also tested with a ground probe (made from Stainless steel wire. this dropped the voltages into "milivolts" , very very small. or near 0 volts.
For small voltages, a ground probe should drop it to near 0.

**
Using the "grounding probe" in the way described can just as easily induce a current through the tank as cancel it. Grounding one point in the tank could create a voltage differential accross the tank that could be theoretically be fatal.
This is true if you have a true "short" from the positive wire on an appliance, to the water, then to ground. This is why "ground fault circuit interrupters" should be used. So that injury to you or fish don't occur with "true shorts" , which will be high "amperage" flowing.
Do I use them, honestly no, but I should, problem I have had in the past is the gfci trips off sometimes for no apparent reason and then all fish tanks are with out power. jme

hth
Ardan

tonymaccs

01-13-2008, 11:53 PM

With the black lead to ground and the red lead in the tank, it registers at 28V now :confused: I don't know if I'm doing this right.

Hi Ryan, Jose, Ardan,
It's interesting to see the results you are getting. I'm curious if this method is the one you are all using. How are you grounding the multimeter- via the grounding pin in your electrical socket?

Keep in mind the number of ways that a voltage differential reading can be caused on your meter by Alternating Current, ie Neutral to ground (which is usually what is meant by the term stray voltage), active to ground, active to neutral, and emf/induction caused by operating devices like your heaters/pumps that have windings in them.
Try a few different circuits and see if the result varies- eg try a different ground ( such as the tank stand if it is made of conductive material), or see if you can get a reading from one part of the tank to another, or if you have a recirculating system, see if you can get a differential reading between one part of the system to another.

In regard to just how any voltage differential may be affecting your fish, there are other variables such as the conductivity of the water (typically discus are being kept in the least conductive water mix), and how well your tanks are grounded to provide a pathway for current to flow. Think about the scenario where your car builds up static charge in cool dry weather- sitting inside you dont notice, step out and provide a ground for the charge to flow and you do notice.

Keep us posted on the progress- I'll run a few tests myself.
Tony

tonymaccs

01-14-2008, 12:12 AM

This is why "ground fault circuit interrupters" should be used. So that injury to you or fish don't occur with "true shorts" , which will be high "amperage" flowing.
Do I use them, honestly no, but I should, problem I have had in the past is the gfci trips off sometimes for no apparent reason and then all fish tanks are with out power. jme
hth
Ardan

Ardan,
I'm pretty sure you are referring to RCDs (residual current devices) or RCCBs (residual current circuit breakers) which are mandatory here in Oz. They can be a real pain at times, especially if you have a neutral grounding fault, but they do save lives. One problem is that they also create a false sense of safety- many people believe them to be all-protecting which they are not. Note that they are not high amp as the trip current needs to be in low milli-amperes and milli-seconds to protect humans from electrocution.
But the biggest trap is that a person can become part of the circuit from active to neutral and be dead and the RCD wont sense anything as there is no current flowing to ground.
Aquarists need to be aware of this.
Tony

phidelt85

01-14-2008, 12:25 AM

Hey, Tony. The reading I got were by the same method Ryan used. Black to ground in wall socket and red in tank. I'll try some of the other methods as well, tomorrow.

Ardan

01-14-2008, 06:41 AM

Black to ground in wall socket and red in tank.

Same here.
I also tried three different circuits for the ground. I used an extension cord (three prong) for the ground to get to a third circuit. It made very little difference.

Ardan

dishpanhands

01-14-2008, 07:01 AM

OK I want to play...LOL...put a paperclip on one probe and a penny on the other then stick one at one end of the tank and the other at the other end of the tank...LOL..

guille2007

01-14-2008, 03:31 PM

My question now is, what is 'stray voltage'? I mean, should the aquarium be 0V? Is there a certain amount of voltage to be expected? Can you get false positives? This is all new to me and so I'm not really sure what this reading even tells me.

Ryan

Digital meter can not be used to test it since it always will display potencial values of voltage, it does not demostrate an electric current fluxing, you will need an anologic voltmeter placing one proble in tank water and the other in your house grown reference and see what it reads, use a led to test it in any electric socket in your house, where led not light that is ground point, even than that if your tank is isolated from ground that test won't tell you nothing either, fish would be in that case like you see a byrd settled in high voltage wire.

alxjss

01-14-2008, 08:18 PM

It's the sound of the water rushing into the tank from the filter. For a while it'd just sound like a very light trickle, then back to a roaring "waterfall" sound, then back to a trickle. It makes me wonder if the AC is not running at full capacity all the time.

Ryan, i no exactly what u mean. Mine do the same thing. Well, the one on my main tank. I plugged in a hydor in line heater to my fluval and i thought this might be it. I am getting the same behavior. I have had this since day one. Everyone insists its water, but i don't. I don't or haven't treated yet.... don't want to. But i want to add more fish, and i am hesitating. hummmmmm, weird:confused:

Jason

01-14-2008, 11:36 PM

Ryan sorry if I missed these suggestions(just skimmed over the thread) but aside from stray volts I would test for iron, then next I would chlorinate your stored water, I beleive we came up with that solution for your water before?

Ryan

01-15-2008, 01:06 AM

GrillMaster

01-15-2008, 01:14 AM

Jason, both chelated and non-chelated iron tested at 0 mg/L.

I still don't age water because I don't have room to store it, so chlorinating is out until I move. Which could be forever.

I raised the fish for over a year with no problems. I didn't really have a need to store the water when I bought the 150. If I knew I'd have to start aging it again, I wouldn't have upgraded to such a large tank :(

Ryan...FWIW...If you could find a place for a rubbermaid 45G trash can to age a lil water anyways and do a 30% WC each day, you might see a difference with the water quality issues you were talking about earlier. Just an idea...:)

tc
Mark

Ryan

01-15-2008, 01:31 AM

If I had room, I would. I have a 150 gallon tank, a queen sized bed, a desk, and a TV in a 9'x11' bedroom. There's not much room to walk around, much less put a 45 gallon trash can full of water in there :(

phidelt85

01-15-2008, 01:35 AM

Hey Ryan, did you ever try putting Carbon filter on your water line?

Jason

01-15-2008, 08:35 PM

Good suggestion Jose, I would look into other options too like whole house UV or a absolute filter.

Ryan

01-15-2008, 10:17 PM

Can anyone tell me more about these charcoal/carbon filters? Is it something that's installed out at my well or at the house somewhere? How expensive are they, and how often do they need to be changed out or replaced?

My dad admitted that we need a new well because ours really isn't deep enough. It's also been here for 25 years. But a new well is not likely right now, so maybe one of these whole house filters would be better.

Also, does it affect the water pressure/flow at all?

Jason

01-15-2008, 11:24 PM

Ryan I'm not really qualified to suggest anything but I can tell you what I use. Your well pump and pressure tank is what determines the flow/pressure, if whatever you install slows the flow, you'll need to crank it up a little.

I was using a micron filter and giant Ssteel carbon vessel but switched to a bac free system because its back flushable and the media last 5 years, plus it just plain does what I want it to do.

http://www.bacfree.net/hh_complete.htm

Ryan

01-16-2008, 11:53 AM

A small update. The Furan-2 treatment is done, the festivums have been moved to another tank, and I've completely stopped using my Aquaclears. Right now I just have sponges running in the tank. I plan to switch out my heaters and get the Rena XP3 going sometime this weekend.

The fish are still twitching and rubbing on things, but they did start showing spawning activity again last night which hasn't happened in almost a month. They need a rest after the meds and the changes I've made, so for the next few weeks I won't be doing anything else with them.

Suggestions are still welcome about the filters for our house.

kaceyo

01-16-2008, 05:47 PM

You can get a three stage (10 micron sediment-10 micron coconutshell carbon- 5 micron coconutshell carbon) under the sink carbon block filter for under $100 which would remove most of the possible contaminents that get into the ground water via local farming, industry etc. I got mine from Air Water & Ice. Their coconut shell carbon cartridges are rated for 9,000 gal and are among the best in the industry. Check out their website.

kacey