Fish not doing well - help

[Riche_guy]

I have a Red Rose that is not doing well. Two other fish that are with him are not that great either. He seems to have a skin bacteria perhaps and his tail is falling off. Here are some pictures. suggestions?? Thanks.

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e340/Riche_guy/P1020085.jpg

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e340/Riche_guy/P1020080.jpg

[RyanH]

This going to sound cruel and horrible. :(

Cull the fish. They will probably not survive and you'll spend a fortune trying to find a med that will actually help. Likely, none will.

Culling is the humane thing to do when a fish is on the doorstep of death IMO. Do it a favor and end its suffering. :(

[12345]

Wow that looks really bad. There are a lot of knowledgable that may have good advice. But it really doesn't look good. Can someone else help?

Where did you get them? LFS? Were they like that when you bought them? What other fishes do you have in that tank?

[Riche_guy]

Wow that looks really bad. There are a lot of knowledgable that may have good advice. But it really doesn't look good. Can someone else help?

Where did you get them? LFS? Were they like that when you bought them? What other fishes do you have in that tank?

I got them from a seller, but the fish went to someone else's quarantine tank since my quarantine tank was not ready yet. That person had another fish from a LFS in the tank that my fish went in. Even though that other fish seem in good health perhaps it had something that transferred to my fish.

[Elite Aquaria]

I got them from a seller, but the fish went to someone else's quarantine tank since my quarantine tank was not ready yet. That person had another fish from a LFS in the tank that my fish went in. Even though that other fish seem in good health perhaps it had something that transferred to my fish.


Sorry to hear about your misfortune...When you QT a fish it must go into a separate tank with no other fish...otherwise that is not a QT

[Graham]

That is probably a secondary bacterial infection resulting from a parasite by the looks of the mucus being sloughed off...either Oodinium or Costia will do that kind of damage, You have to clear the parasite 1st

If that fish is in a QT hit it with Quick Cure @ 1.5 times the dose or PP @4ppm asap...

G

[poconogal]

I agree with Graham, I'd hit them Quick Cure for the parasite. After that, if necessary I'd go with an antibiotic for the secondary infection. I've recommended Maracyn 2 in the past to a friend who had the same sort of thing going on. She had excellent results using Quick Cure and Maracyn 2, and her Discus were on death's door. (She actually researched and decided that she could use both together, which she did, with no problems).

[aqua]

I would recommend to go with a slighter dose on whatever the medication that you're going to use than the normal dose and slowly increase the dose in the next treatment. At this stage, the fish is weak and probably didn't eat for several days already. Most of the time, the fish will die shortly after because of "med overdose" from the first treatment.

[Graham]

Sorry Aqua can't agree with lightening up the dose...All meds and chems should be used at full strength each and every time. You never want to slowly try and knock out a parasite; you want to whack it hard right up front.

Chems like Formalin are oxidizers and they need to have enough strength to work their way through the lighter organic in the system and still have enough punch left to work on the parasites. Too light a dose and nothing has been accomplished and the parasite just keeps on reeking havoc, maybe with a slight set back. This is why the dose was suggested at being increased, to give that big punch. The fish can be nothing but happier with the parasites off them.

Some antibiotic meds are bactericidal, they kill on contact, so if they are not dosed at the proper strength, they can't do their job and the bacteria has a chance to re-establish, instead of being wiped out.

Other meds are bacteriostatic, they only slow bacteria down, allowing the animals own immune system to fight back.

Most hobbyist have no idea what they are fighting and just throw ''stuff'' at the fish hoping something will help...when it doesn't they blame the meds...they didn't work...when in actuality they didn't use any of the right ones to start with........

Very few meds when used properly can be over dosed....


BTW Metro is bactericidal

[Riche_guy]

I've come home tonight and must say the Red rose looks better then yesterday. Would Copper Safe be the reason????

[Graham]

It sure could be...it'll look after the parasite and then be ready with a decent antibiotic to clear up the bacterial infections..



This is a chem that can be Overdosed so follow the instructions

[Riche_guy]

It sure could be...it'll look after the parasite and then be ready with a decent antibiotic to clear up the bacterial infections..



This is a chem that can be Overdosed so follow the instructions

Can you elaborate please???

[Ardan]

http://www.virbacpets.com/mardel/product.php?pid=190

You MUST test often and maintain the levels suggested here.
Get the proper test kit for "chelated copper" (this is what coppersafe is)

It is best to treat in a hospital tank, bare bottom, no plants, no gravel..... these items "use up " the meds

Plants can absorb copper until they (plants) die and then they release all copper to the water resulting in overdose
OH and most meds don't mix with copper!!
hth
Ardan

[Riche_guy]

http://www.virbacpets.com/mardel/product.php?pid=190

You MUST test often and maintain the levels suggested here.
Get the proper test kit for "chelated copper" (this is what coppersafe is)

It is best to treat in a hospital tank, bare bottom, no plants, no gravel..... these items "use up " the meds

Plants can absorb copper until they (plants) die and then they release all copper to the water resulting in overdose
OH and most meds don't mix with copper!!
hth
Ardan

this is a quarantine tank, no plants or grave. Will monitor.

[Graham]

I think that you got your answers:) Just a couple of other things ....if you're using Mardel Copper Safe it's chelated as Ardan mentiond and half ways safe and may even be useless depending on water chemistry.

Other copper sulfate products, thier toxicty can depend on the KH..the lower the KH, the more toxic.

Over all it's just not a product that you'll see any of us recommend....F&MG is safer

[Riche_guy]

I think that you got your answers:) Just a couple of other things ....if you're using Mardel Copper Safe it's chelated as Ardan mentiond and half ways safe and may even be useless depending on water chemistry.

Other copper sulfate products, thier toxicty can depend on the KG...the lower the KH, the more toxic.

Over all it's just not a product that you'll see any of us recommend....F&MG is safer

When you say F@MG is safer do you mean that it works better than Copper Safe as well? My Ph is near the 7.

What is strange is that the Red rose that was the sicker fish yesterday is actually the one swimming the most today. Weird no??

[Graham]

When you say F@MG is safer do you mean that it works better than Copper Safe as well? My Ph is near the 7.


I don't know if it works better than Copper but it's an overall better chem from a number of different aspects


What is strange is that the Red rose that was the sicker fish yesterday is actually the one swimming the most today. Weird no??

Not weird at all the copper did work

[Discus_adictus]

Hi Riche, I'm glad your Rose Red is showing sign of recovery.

Graham could the secondary infection possibly be columnaris caused by gram-negative bacteria? I believed my discus was hit by this same kind of infection last year and the symptoms look similar. Fins deteriorating/disintegrating and white, fuzzy, mold-like looking lesions on the skin.

[Graham]

Hi It could be but............a lot of parasites are capable of doing the fin damage that's seen in the pic and the mucus clumping togeher is another sign of a parasite.

As to which bacteria will invade that's hard to say...Columnaris presents itself generally as round tuffs, spreading outward, wheres Saprolegnia can spread in all directions. Youre comment about a ''mold-like looking '' suggest Sap

G

[Riche_guy]

Here is an update.

The Red Rose seems to move about then he moves up to the surface to stay next to the other two fish. Why are they staying at the surface side-by-side? Is it a group thingy? Is there not enough oxygen? I have a sponge filter. Isn't that pushing enough air?

[Graham]

Have you continued the treatments? ...follow the dosing protocol of the Copper Safe or the Quick Cure, which ever you using. There should be lots of O2 in the water, just make sure that any airstones are running at full blast so that O2 stays at saturation for the temps.

His gills have been damaged by the parasite and possibly a secondary bacterial infection, therefore he's not getting maximum gas/O2 exchange. Since O2 is always higher at the surface of the water that's where he'll hang out...he gets more O2 for the effort.

G

[Riche_guy]

Have you continued the treatments? ...follow the dosing protocol of the Copper Safe or the Quick Cure, which ever you using. There should be lots of O2 in the water, just make sure that any airstones are running at full blast so that O2 stays at saturation for the temps.

His gills have been damaged by the parasite and possibly a secondary bacterial infection, therefore he's not getting maximum gas/O2 exchange. Since O2 is always higher at the surface of the water that's where he'll hang out...he gets more O2 for the effort.

G

Yes I am continuing with the treatment. Thanks. I'll add an airstone. Should I refrain from feeding?

[Graham]

Yes, As long as they'll eat it, the last thing that you want is rotting food laying around...

[Riche_guy]

Just a little update on my Red Rose. He is doing a lot better. He is now eating and moving about. The Snow white is moving and eating a little still moving awkwardly. The Blue Butterfly is not eating yet and still staying at the top. Here is a picture.

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e340/Riche_guy/P1020110.jpg

[Graham]

Looks like a fish on it's way to recovery... back from deaths door...which ever chem you're using follow through all the way with the dosing and keep the water quality up...nice going

G

[Riche_guy]

Looks like a fish on it's way to recovery... back from deaths door...which ever chem you're using follow through all the way with the dosing and keep the water quality up...nice going

G


thanks. I just hope the Blue Butterfly will also get better too.

[Riche_guy]

Well to give you guys an update. Te Red rose has recovered. The snow white health turned for the worst and he died. the Blue Butterfly took awhile to get better. He must of had something on his skin since he tried rubbing himself on any surface he could find and would race back and forth. I continued the treatment and he eventually got better. They are both now in the community tank. Here are some pictures.

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e340/Riche_guy/P1020207.jpg

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e340/Riche_guy/P1020212.jpg

[GottaBeKiN]

Wow that was a great comeback. Good luck with them!

[Riche_guy]

Wow that was a great comeback. Good luck with them!

I was lucky.

[DiscusKeeper403]

Very happy to see they recovered. That was definitely an under dog story!! They got nice color, and seem very happy!

[Riche_guy]

Very happy to see they recovered. That was definitely an under dog story!! They got nice color, and seem very happy!

Thanks. I was glad to be able to treat what ever they had. Now they are feisty and amongst my other fish in the community tank.